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Re: Diving and Exercise Question

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General fitness, health and nutrition
Published
18 May 2006
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25 May 2006
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John Hanson
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  1. On Wed, 17 May 2006 11:33:12 +0200, Matthias Voss
    <[email hidden]> wrote in rec.scuba:

    Quoted message said:
    Greg Mossman said:

    "Matthias Voss" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    >Even at rest, a diver with more muscle tissue will be burning more O2
    >simply because there is more muscle to feed. At work, the air
    >consumption rate for the larger diver increases exponentially since both
    >the increased basal MR and the increased working MR must be factored in.

    No. Bigger animals benefit metabolically speaking, from the
    declining-with-mass ratio between mass and surface.

    Yeah, maybe so, but that just means that the rate of BMR increase slows as
    mass increases. It's still an exponential increase when work is applied
    because there is simply more muscle doing the work.

    I tend to disagree becuase an exponential relation here
    contradicts recent and current understanding fo physics.

    Please provide a cite.

    Quoted message said:


    The BMR is irrelevant here.
    Imagine we were all of sperical shape, which comes
    reasonable close for most divers.
    The surface increases with the square of the radius, the
    mass with third power.

    Which means absolutely nothing.

    Quoted message said:


    Surface area determines heat loss, mass heat generation. So
    even a slightly bigger sphere may be able to compensate for
    heat loss with a less per mass ratio of muscle generated heat.

    Surface area does NOT determine mass heat generation! You're talking
    out of your ass.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    And even in the resting case: "Obviously, if one subject is much larger
    than another, the total amount of energy utilized by the two subjects will
    be considerably different simply because of differences in body size." --
    Guyton, Textbook of Medical Physiology 7th ed. (1986).

    All other factors being equal, the smaller diver will use less air than the
    bigger diver at rest and the difference becomes more profound with work.

    That does not contradict my rejection of an exponential
    relation. In fact, most small divers consume much more than
    would be proportional to their weight.

    No and fat weight has little affect on ATP, O2 or energy consumption

    Quoted message said:


    Btw, exponential here does not mean ^2 or ^3, but mostly
    power with "e" as a base. Formulas expressing natural
    growth, or sat/desat/uration processes.

    How about you give us that formula. You're talking out your ass
    again.

    Quoted message said:


    And the data shown by institutes studying exercise related
    consumption and in sports seem to prove that a very fit
    muscled diver may comsume much less than an unfit diver of
    the same weight.

    Please provide this cite too.

    Quoted message said:

    Simply because he uses his muscles in a more efficient manner.

    Don't listen to athletes doing body sculpture. There goal is
    making their muscles impressive, not effective.


    Who here does body sculpture? If you are referring to me, I'm a
    powerlifter...huge difference.

  2. "John Hanson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    On Wed, 17 May 2006 11:33:12 +0200, Matthias Voss
    <[email hidden]> wrote in rec.scuba:

    Quoted message said:
    Greg Mossman said:

    "Matthias Voss" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    >>Even at rest, a diver with more muscle tissue will be burning more O2
    >>simply because there is more muscle to feed. At work, the air
    >>consumption rate for the larger diver increases exponentially since
    >>both
    >>the increased basal MR and the increased working MR must be factored
    >>in.
    >
    >No. Bigger animals benefit metabolically speaking, from the
    >declining-with-mass ratio between mass and surface.

    Yeah, maybe so, but that just means that the rate of BMR increase slows
    as
    mass increases. It's still an exponential increase when work is applied
    because there is simply more muscle doing the work.

    I tend to disagree becuase an exponential relation here
    contradicts recent and current understanding fo physics.

    Please provide a cite.

    Quoted message said:


    The BMR is irrelevant here.
    Imagine we were all of sperical shape, which comes
    reasonable close for most divers.
    The surface increases with the square of the radius, the
    mass with third power.

    Which means absolutely nothing.

    Quoted message said:


    Surface area determines heat loss, mass heat generation. So
    even a slightly bigger sphere may be able to compensate for
    heat loss with a less per mass ratio of muscle generated heat.

    Surface area does NOT determine mass heat generation! You're talking
    out of your ass.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    And even in the resting case: "Obviously, if one subject is much larger
    than another, the total amount of energy utilized by the two subjects
    will
    be considerably different simply because of differences in body
    size." --
    Guyton, Textbook of Medical Physiology 7th ed. (1986).

    All other factors being equal, the smaller diver will use less air than
    the
    bigger diver at rest and the difference becomes more profound with work.

    That does not contradict my rejection of an exponential
    relation. In fact, most small divers consume much more than
    would be proportional to their weight.

    No and fat weight has little affect on ATP, O2 or energy consumption

    Quoted message said:


    Btw, exponential here does not mean ^2 or ^3, but mostly
    power with "e" as a base. Formulas expressing natural
    growth, or sat/desat/uration processes.

    How about you give us that formula. You're talking out your ass
    again.

    Quoted message said:


    And the data shown by institutes studying exercise related
    consumption and in sports seem to prove that a very fit
    muscled diver may comsume much less than an unfit diver of
    the same weight.

    Please provide this cite too.

    Quoted message said:

    Simply because he uses his muscles in a more efficient manner.

    Don't listen to athletes doing body sculpture. There goal is
    making their muscles impressive, not effective.


    Who here does body sculpture? If you are referring to me, I'm a
    powerlifter...huge difference.

    [rec.scuba removed]

    lmao, that's our John. Kicking ass and making new friends in his new NG!

  3. "John Hanson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    On Wed, 17 May 2006 11:33:12 +0200, Matthias Voss
    <[email hidden]> wrote in rec.scuba:

    Quoted message said:
    Greg Mossman said:

    "Matthias Voss" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    >>Even at rest, a diver with more muscle tissue will be burning more O2
    >>simply because there is more muscle to feed. At work, the air
    >>consumption rate for the larger diver increases exponentially since
    >>both
    >>the increased basal MR and the increased working MR must be factored
    >>in.
    >
    >No. Bigger animals benefit metabolically speaking, from the
    >declining-with-mass ratio between mass and surface.

    Yeah, maybe so, but that just means that the rate of BMR increase slows
    as
    mass increases. It's still an exponential increase when work is applied
    because there is simply more muscle doing the work.

    I tend to disagree becuase an exponential relation here
    contradicts recent and current understanding fo physics.

    Please provide a cite.

    Quoted message said:


    The BMR is irrelevant here.
    Imagine we were all of sperical shape, which comes
    reasonable close for most divers.
    The surface increases with the square of the radius, the
    mass with third power.

    Which means absolutely nothing.

    Quoted message said:


    Surface area determines heat loss, mass heat generation. So
    even a slightly bigger sphere may be able to compensate for
    heat loss with a less per mass ratio of muscle generated heat.

    Surface area does NOT determine mass heat generation! You're talking
    out of your ass.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    And even in the resting case: "Obviously, if one subject is much larger
    than another, the total amount of energy utilized by the two subjects
    will
    be considerably different simply because of differences in body
    size." --
    Guyton, Textbook of Medical Physiology 7th ed. (1986).

    All other factors being equal, the smaller diver will use less air than
    the
    bigger diver at rest and the difference becomes more profound with work.

    That does not contradict my rejection of an exponential
    relation. In fact, most small divers consume much more than
    would be proportional to their weight.

    No and fat weight has little affect on ATP, O2 or energy consumption

    Quoted message said:


    Btw, exponential here does not mean ^2 or ^3, but mostly
    power with "e" as a base. Formulas expressing natural
    growth, or sat/desat/uration processes.

    How about you give us that formula. You're talking out your ass
    again.

    Quoted message said:


    And the data shown by institutes studying exercise related
    consumption and in sports seem to prove that a very fit
    muscled diver may comsume much less than an unfit diver of
    the same weight.

    Please provide this cite too.

    Quoted message said:

    Simply because he uses his muscles in a more efficient manner.

    Don't listen to athletes doing body sculpture. There goal is
    making their muscles impressive, not effective.


    Who here does body sculpture? If you are referring to me, I'm a
    powerlifter...huge difference.

    Sure, Hanson - you bodysculpting poser.

    My take on this is that a smaller diver in colder water will have to burn
    more to maintain his body temp due to the fact that he has more surface area
    / bodymass and consequently will lose more of his core heat to the water
    than a larger diver. That would be if both divers are sitting still. As
    soon as they start exerting themselves, the diver with the larger muscle
    mass will have a larger O2 requirement - just as he does on land.

  4. "Ranieri" <nah> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    "John Hanson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    On Wed, 17 May 2006 11:33:12 +0200, Matthias Voss
    <[email hidden]> wrote in rec.scuba:

    Quoted message said:

    Greg Mossman wrote:

    > "Matthias Voss" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    > news:[email hidden]...
    >
    >
    >>>Even at rest, a diver with more muscle tissue will be burning more
    >>>O2
    >>>simply because there is more muscle to feed. At work, the air
    >>>consumption rate for the larger diver increases exponentially
    >>>since both
    >>>the increased basal MR and the increased working MR must be
    >>>factored in.
    >>
    >>No. Bigger animals benefit metabolically speaking, from the
    >>declining-with-mass ratio between mass and surface.
    >
    >
    > Yeah, maybe so, but that just means that the rate of BMR increase
    > slows as
    > mass increases. It's still an exponential increase when work is
    > applied
    > because there is simply more muscle doing the work.

    I tend to disagree becuase an exponential relation here
    contradicts recent and current understanding fo physics.

    Please provide a cite.

    Quoted message said:


    The BMR is irrelevant here.
    Imagine we were all of sperical shape, which comes
    reasonable close for most divers.
    The surface increases with the square of the radius, the
    mass with third power.

    Which means absolutely nothing.

    Quoted message said:


    Surface area determines heat loss, mass heat generation. So
    even a slightly bigger sphere may be able to compensate for
    heat loss with a less per mass ratio of muscle generated heat.

    Surface area does NOT determine mass heat generation! You're talking
    out of your ass.

    Quoted message said:

    > And even in the resting case: "Obviously, if one subject is much
    > larger
    > than another, the total amount of energy utilized by the two
    > subjects will
    > be considerably different simply because of differences in body
    > size." --
    > Guyton, Textbook of Medical Physiology 7th ed. (1986).
    >
    > All other factors being equal, the smaller diver will use less air
    > than the
    > bigger diver at rest and the difference becomes more profound with
    > work.

    That does not contradict my rejection of an exponential
    relation. In fact, most small divers consume much more than
    would be proportional to their weight.

    No and fat weight has little affect on ATP, O2 or energy consumption

    Quoted message said:


    Btw, exponential here does not mean ^2 or ^3, but mostly
    power with "e" as a base. Formulas expressing natural
    growth, or sat/desat/uration processes.

    How about you give us that formula. You're talking out your ass
    again.

    Quoted message said:


    And the data shown by institutes studying exercise related
    consumption and in sports seem to prove that a very fit
    muscled diver may comsume much less than an unfit diver of
    the same weight.

    Please provide this cite too.

    Quoted message said:

    Simply because he uses his muscles in a more efficient manner.

    Don't listen to athletes doing body sculpture. There goal is
    making their muscles impressive, not effective.


    Who here does body sculpture? If you are referring to me, I'm a
    powerlifter...huge difference.

    Sure, Hanson - you bodysculpting poser.

    My take on this is that a smaller diver in colder water will have to
    burn more to maintain his body temp due to the fact that he has more
    surface area / bodymass and consequently will lose more of his core
    heat to the water than a larger diver.

    Fat plays a part here, too - more fat generally means better insulation.
    I spent a good part of my adult life with ~10-15 lbs. more fat on me
    than I've had for the last few years, and it made a big difference in
    how cold I get when inactive outdoors in the cold. More fat should mean
    less calories burned to stay warm.

    -S-
    http://www.kbnj.com

    Quoted message said:

    That would be if both divers are sitting still. As soon as they start
    exerting themselves, the diver with the larger muscle mass will have a
    larger O2 requirement - just as he does on land.

  5. On Thu, 18 May 2006 11:06:55 -0500, "Ranieri" <nah> wrote in
    misc.fitness.weights:

    Quoted message said:


    "John Hanson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    On Wed, 17 May 2006 11:33:12 +0200, Matthias Voss
    <[email hidden]> wrote in rec.scuba:

    Quoted message said:

    Greg Mossman wrote:

    > "Matthias Voss" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    > news:[email hidden]...
    >
    >
    >>>Even at rest, a diver with more muscle tissue will be burning more O2
    >>>simply because there is more muscle to feed. At work, the air
    >>>consumption rate for the larger diver increases exponentially since
    >>>both
    >>>the increased basal MR and the increased working MR must be factored
    >>>in.
    >>
    >>No. Bigger animals benefit metabolically speaking, from the
    >>declining-with-mass ratio between mass and surface.
    >
    >
    > Yeah, maybe so, but that just means that the rate of BMR increase slows
    > as
    > mass increases. It's still an exponential increase when work is applied
    > because there is simply more muscle doing the work.

    I tend to disagree becuase an exponential relation here
    contradicts recent and current understanding fo physics.

    Please provide a cite.

    Quoted message said:


    The BMR is irrelevant here.
    Imagine we were all of sperical shape, which comes
    reasonable close for most divers.
    The surface increases with the square of the radius, the
    mass with third power.

    Which means absolutely nothing.

    Quoted message said:


    Surface area determines heat loss, mass heat generation. So
    even a slightly bigger sphere may be able to compensate for
    heat loss with a less per mass ratio of muscle generated heat.

    Surface area does NOT determine mass heat generation! You're talking
    out of your ass.

    Quoted message said:

    > And even in the resting case: "Obviously, if one subject is much larger
    > than another, the total amount of energy utilized by the two subjects
    > will
    > be considerably different simply because of differences in body
    > size." --
    > Guyton, Textbook of Medical Physiology 7th ed. (1986).
    >
    > All other factors being equal, the smaller diver will use less air than
    > the
    > bigger diver at rest and the difference becomes more profound with work.

    That does not contradict my rejection of an exponential
    relation. In fact, most small divers consume much more than
    would be proportional to their weight.

    No and fat weight has little affect on ATP, O2 or energy consumption

    Quoted message said:


    Btw, exponential here does not mean ^2 or ^3, but mostly
    power with "e" as a base. Formulas expressing natural
    growth, or sat/desat/uration processes.

    How about you give us that formula. You're talking out your ass
    again.

    Quoted message said:


    And the data shown by institutes studying exercise related
    consumption and in sports seem to prove that a very fit
    muscled diver may comsume much less than an unfit diver of
    the same weight.

    Please provide this cite too.

    Quoted message said:

    Simply because he uses his muscles in a more efficient manner.

    Don't listen to athletes doing body sculpture. There goal is
    making their muscles impressive, not effective.


    Who here does body sculpture? If you are referring to me, I'm a
    powerlifter...huge difference.

    Sure, Hanson - you bodysculpting poser.

    Hehe

    Quoted message said:


    My take on this is that a smaller diver in colder water will have to burn
    more to maintain his body temp due to the fact that he has more surface area
    / bodymass and consequently will lose more of his core heat to the water
    than a larger diver. That would be if both divers are sitting still. As
    soon as they start exerting themselves, the diver with the larger muscle
    mass will have a larger O2 requirement - just as he does on land.


    What if the "smaller diver" has a great deal more fat than the more
    muscular diver?

  6. Ranieri said:

    "John Hanson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    My take on this is that a smaller diver in colder water will have to burn
    more to maintain his body temp due to the fact that he has more surface
    area
    / bodymass and consequently will lose more of his core heat to the water
    than a larger diver. That would be if both divers are sitting still. As
    soon as they start exerting themselves, the diver with the larger muscle
    mass will have a larger O2 requirement - just as he does on land.

    What if the "smaller diver" has a great deal more fat than the more
    muscular diver?

    Well yeah...it probably goes: small/lean, big/lean, small/fat, big fat.

    I'd choose a lean sirloin.
    Matthias

  7. "Matthias Voss" wrote

    Quoted message said:

    I'd choose a lean sirloin.

    What, no mad cow disease in de?

    I'll have mine moderately marbled, medium rare, please.

    Lee

  8. "OmManiPadmeOmelet" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    http://www.churchofeuthanasia.org/e-sermons/butcher.html

    "It puts the lotion in the basket."

  9. "Ranieri" <nah> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Sure, Hanson - you bodysculpting poser.

    :-)

    Quoted message said:

    My take on this is that a smaller diver in colder water will have to burn
    more to maintain his body temp due to the fact that he has more surface
    area / bodymass and consequently will lose more of his core heat to the
    water than a larger diver. That would be if both divers are sitting
    still. As soon as they start exerting themselves, the diver with the
    larger muscle mass will have a larger O2 requirement - just as he does on
    land.

    You city boys is laser cutting titanium toothpicks where the knife
    whittled wooden ones have done fine for years.

    Diver A (call him Hanz Hanson) will see his first shark, hoover his AL80
    with his Manly Man lungs till it implodes, and shoot back up on the boat
    like a Polaris Missile, land on his feet by his gear bag.

    Diver B (Franz Hanson) will dark nark at about 80 fsw of bathwater in the
    Keys, overbreathe his reg in guppy paranoia till the hoses go limp (while
    taking a mighty CO2 hit), and get a nice ride in an neat orange whirleybird.

    Run, don't walk: http://www.diversalertnetwork.org/

    www.roidabuse.org

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