Re: Fast track to ketosis

DJ Delorie wrote:
|| Rusty <[email hidden]> writes:
||| I know there are allot of variables but if a person did aerobic
||| exercise how long might it take to use enough of your glucose stores
||| to put you in ketosis. x hrs. of exercise = 0 carb reserves.
||
|| It doesn't work that way. Exercise uses muscle glycogen, ketosis
|| depends on liver glycogen. If you exercise more, it will speed the
|| switch to ketosis, but only because of indirect reasons - muscles are
|| using up more blood glucose to replete, causing the liver to dump
|| more glycogen into the blood (as glucose) to restore blood glucose
|| levels. But you still have to wait for the liver to do its job.

Does it matter what the reasons are? If you up the exercise more, eat less,
etc, you can speed the return to ketosis.

Roger Zoul said:

||| exercise how long might it take to use enough of your glucose stores
||| to put you in ketosis. x hrs. of exercise = 0 carb reserves.

Does it matter what the reasons are? If you up the exercise more, eat less,
etc, you can speed the return to ketosis.

It does to the particular question the OP was asking. You can't just
do X hours of exercise and expect to then be in ketosis. Perhaps X
hours will cause you to *eventually* be in ketosis, and perhaps
"eventually" will be less than had you not exercised, but I was trying
to explain that it's not a direct effect so it doesn't take effect
immediately.

Plus, in the time it takes the liver to dump all those carbs, the
muscles might not be so hungry, reducing the net benefit.

But my point was, it's not X hours gets you into ketosis, because
exercise itself doesn't use up the glucose stores that affect ketosis.

DJ Delorie wrote:
|| "Roger Zoul" <[email hidden]> writes:
|||||| exercise how long might it take to use enough of your glucose
|||||| stores to put you in ketosis. x hrs. of exercise = 0 carb
|||||| reserves.
|||
||| Does it matter what the reasons are? If you up the exercise more,
||| eat less, etc, you can speed the return to ketosis.
||
|| It does to the particular question the OP was asking. You can't just
|| do X hours of exercise and expect to then be in ketosis. Perhaps X
|| hours will cause you to *eventually* be in ketosis, and perhaps
|| "eventually" will be less than had you not exercised, but I was
|| trying
|| to explain that it's not a direct effect so it doesn't take effect
|| immediately.
||
|| Plus, in the time it takes the liver to dump all those carbs, the
|| muscles might not be so hungry, reducing the net benefit.
||
|| But my point was, it's not X hours gets you into ketosis, because
|| exercise itself doesn't use up the glucose stores that affect
|| ketosis.

I'm not sure I agree with you. It is known that the muscle can hold only so
much glycogen...the same with the liver. Based on that, and one's LBM, one
would be able to, with the proper type of exercise, exhaust the available
glycogen in the muscles. Then, the liver glycgoen would eventually dump. So,
there might be some finite time before that final step happens, but that
could just be added on top of the exercise component. Moreso, the draining
of liver glycogen could probably be accounted for so that the exercise,
which would be spread of some period of time anyway, could stretch over a
time span which would correspond to depleted liver glycogen. So while the
exact process that the OP causally alluded to is not what happens, that
result could likely be achieved in the manner he desires it.

No?

Over in the bicycling ng groups, people frequently talk about how the muscle
can hold about 2000 calories in glycogen in muscles. Hence, once ould
exhaust that amounts by hard riding for a period of time. The result of
doing that would be to bonk.

Roger Zoul said:

I'm not sure I agree with you.

I think you do, but we're splitting hairs. Exercise causes you to go
into ketosis faster, yes, we all agree on that. My ONLY point was
that exercise doesn't directly deplete liver glycogen, so X hours of
exercise doesn't guarantee that at the end of X hours you're in
ketosis, which seemed to be what the OP was thinking.

Quoted message said:

Then, the liver glycgoen would eventually dump.

Right, I was trying to point out the "eventually" part. Depleted
muscles themselves do not cause ketosis. It's only when the liver
later depletes while trying to fuel internal organs while the muscles
are absorbing some of those carbs do you enter ketosis.

I haven't seen anything that shows you can force the liver to dump
glycogen faster than it's natural "blood glucose is low" rate. You
can use up muscle glycogen in a few hours (including time to vomit 😉
but IMHO the liver still takes its own time to dump its glycogen. It
won't replete muscle glycogen anywhere near as fast as a carb-up
could, so you aren't going to deplete the liver that fast either.

Quoted message said:

So, there might be some finite time before that final step happens,
but that could just be added on top of the exercise component.
Moreso, the draining of liver glycogen could probably be accounted
for so that the exercise, which would be spread of some period of
time anyway, could stretch over a time span which would correspond
to depleted liver glycogen.

To extrapolate absurdly, the exercise of "breathing" over a 72 hour
period would put you in ketosis. Certainly, that's not a "fast track"
the OP wanted.

Quoted message said:

Over in the bicycling ng groups, people frequently talk about how
the muscle can hold about 2000 calories in glycogen in muscles.
Hence, once ould exhaust that amounts by hard riding for a period of
time. The result of doing that would be to bonk.

Right, but they're not in ketosis when they bonk. Only if their diet
after the bonk doesn't contain sufficient carbs would they eventually
go into ketosis.

DJ Delorie wrote:
|| "Roger Zoul" <[email hidden]> writes:
||| I'm not sure I agree with you.
||
|| I think you do, but we're splitting hairs. Exercise causes you to go
|| into ketosis faster, yes, we all agree on that. My ONLY point was
|| that exercise doesn't directly deplete liver glycogen, so X hours of
|| exercise doesn't guarantee that at the end of X hours you're in
|| ketosis, which seemed to be what the OP was thinking.
||
||| Then, the liver glycgoen would eventually dump.
||
|| Right, I was trying to point out the "eventually" part. Depleted
|| muscles themselves do not cause ketosis. It's only when the liver
|| later depletes while trying to fuel internal organs while the muscles
|| are absorbing some of those carbs do you enter ketosis.
||
|| I haven't seen anything that shows you can force the liver to dump
|| glycogen faster than it's natural "blood glucose is low" rate.

I would guess that the liver can act quickly to keep BG from going low.
While you may not be able to speed its natural rate, you may be able to
encourage it to react.

You
|| can use up muscle glycogen in a few hours (including time to vomit 😉
|| but IMHO the liver still takes its own time to dump its glycogen. It
|| won't replete muscle glycogen anywhere near as fast as a carb-up
|| could, so you aren't going to deplete the liver that fast either.

I don't think the liver can hold near as much gylcogen as the muscles,
right?

||
||| So, there might be some finite time before that final step happens,
||| but that could just be added on top of the exercise component.
||| Moreso, the draining of liver glycogen could probably be accounted
||| for so that the exercise, which would be spread of some period of
||| time anyway, could stretch over a time span which would correspond
||| to depleted liver glycogen.
||
|| To extrapolate absurdly, the exercise of "breathing" over a 72 hour
|| period would put you in ketosis. Certainly, that's not a "fast
|| track" the OP wanted.

the sooner you deplete muscle glycogen, the quicker you enter ketosis,
assuming the liver is holding a lot of glycogen in the first place.

||
||| Over in the bicycling ng groups, people frequently talk about how
||| the muscle can hold about 2000 calories in glycogen in muscles.
||| Hence, once ould exhaust that amounts by hard riding for a period of
||| time. The result of doing that would be to bonk.
||
|| Right, but they're not in ketosis when they bonk. Only if their diet
|| after the bonk doesn't contain sufficient carbs would they eventually
|| go into ketosis.

I think one is close to being in ketosis at that point, as the liver would
begin dumping glycogen. At this point, ketosis is a certainty provided too
many carbs aren't reintroduced into the diet. Hence, it is my supposition
that this dumping period can be factored into the time to ketosis. So you
do X hours of exercise, maintain diet, and wait a brief time. That would in
effect minimize time to ketosis and would serve the OP's inquiry.

Roger Zoul said:

DJ Delorie wrote:
|| "Roger Zoul" <[email hidden]> writes:
||| I'm not sure I agree with you.
||
|| I think you do, but we're splitting hairs. Exercise causes you to go
|| into ketosis faster, yes, we all agree on that. My ONLY point was
|| that exercise doesn't directly deplete liver glycogen, so X hours of
|| exercise doesn't guarantee that at the end of X hours you're in
|| ketosis, which seemed to be what the OP was thinking.
||
||| Then, the liver glycgoen would eventually dump.
||
|| Right, I was trying to point out the "eventually" part. Depleted
|| muscles themselves do not cause ketosis. It's only when the liver
|| later depletes while trying to fuel internal organs while the muscles
|| are absorbing some of those carbs do you enter ketosis.
||
|| I haven't seen anything that shows you can force the liver to dump
|| glycogen faster than it's natural "blood glucose is low" rate.

I would guess that the liver can act quickly to keep BG from going low.
While you may not be able to speed its natural rate, you may be able to
encourage it to react.

You
|| can use up muscle glycogen in a few hours (including time to vomit 😉
|| but IMHO the liver still takes its own time to dump its glycogen. It
|| won't replete muscle glycogen anywhere near as fast as a carb-up
|| could, so you aren't going to deplete the liver that fast either.

I don't think the liver can hold near as much gylcogen as the muscles,
right?

||
||| So, there might be some finite time before that final step happens,
||| but that could just be added on top of the exercise component.
||| Moreso, the draining of liver glycogen could probably be accounted
||| for so that the exercise, which would be spread of some period of
||| time anyway, could stretch over a time span which would correspond
||| to depleted liver glycogen.
||
|| To extrapolate absurdly, the exercise of "breathing" over a 72 hour
|| period would put you in ketosis. Certainly, that's not a "fast
|| track" the OP wanted.

the sooner you deplete muscle glycogen, the quicker you enter ketosis,
assuming the liver is holding a lot of glycogen in the first place.

||
||| Over in the bicycling ng groups, people frequently talk about how
||| the muscle can hold about 2000 calories in glycogen in muscles.
||| Hence, once ould exhaust that amounts by hard riding for a period of
||| time. The result of doing that would be to bonk.
||
|| Right, but they're not in ketosis when they bonk. Only if their diet
|| after the bonk doesn't contain sufficient carbs would they eventually
|| go into ketosis.

I think one is close to being in ketosis at that point, as the liver would
begin dumping glycogen. At this point, ketosis is a certainty provided too
many carbs aren't reintroduced into the diet. Hence, it is my supposition
that this dumping period can be factored into the time to ketosis. So you
do X hours of exercise, maintain diet, and wait a brief time. That would in
effect minimize time to ketosis and would serve the OP's inquiry.

Actually I knew that working your muscles to failure won't use all the
available glucose in your body, I was more interested in the time frame
of the cycle of using all the available muscle glucose, refilling it
with glucose from the liver and repeating until no more glucose is
present/ketosis.

Roger Zoul said:

I don't think the liver can hold near as much gylcogen as the muscles,
right?

Muscles hold about twice the glycogen as liver, 120g vs 70g.

Quoted message said:

Hence, it is my supposition that this dumping period can be factored
into the time to ketosis. So you do X hours of exercise, maintain
diet, and wait a brief time.

Yes, we agree! Stop agreeing with me! :-)

Except I see no data that says it's a "brief" time. It's a time, I
don't know how long. Maybe I'll ask Lyle.

DJ Delorie wrote:
|| "Roger Zoul" <[email hidden]> writes:
||| I don't think the liver can hold near as much gylcogen as the
||| muscles, right?
||
|| Muscles hold about twice the glycogen as liver, 120g vs 70g.
||
||| Hence, it is my supposition that this dumping period can be factored
||| into the time to ketosis. So you do X hours of exercise, maintain
||| diet, and wait a brief time.
||
|| Yes, we agree! Stop agreeing with me! :-)
||
|| Except I see no data that says it's a "brief" time. It's a time, I
|| don't know how long. Maybe I'll ask Lyle.

Good idea....

I was trying to be disagreeble...it is a questioned I'd like answered too!

I think the liver will be cleared of glycogen relatively quickly just based
on personal experience when trying to recover from a carb up.

Rusty wrote:
|| Roger Zoul wrote:
||| DJ Delorie wrote:
||||| "Roger Zoul" <[email hidden]> writes:
|||||| I'm not sure I agree with you.
|||||
||||| I think you do, but we're splitting hairs. Exercise causes you
||||| to go into ketosis faster, yes, we all agree on that. My ONLY
||||| point was
||||| that exercise doesn't directly deplete liver glycogen, so X hours
||||| of exercise doesn't guarantee that at the end of X hours you're in
||||| ketosis, which seemed to be what the OP was thinking.
|||||
|||||| Then, the liver glycgoen would eventually dump.
|||||
||||| Right, I was trying to point out the "eventually" part. Depleted
||||| muscles themselves do not cause ketosis. It's only when the liver
||||| later depletes while trying to fuel internal organs while the
||||| muscles are absorbing some of those carbs do you enter ketosis.
|||||
||||| I haven't seen anything that shows you can force the liver to dump
||||| glycogen faster than it's natural "blood glucose is low" rate.
|||
||| I would guess that the liver can act quickly to keep BG from going
||| low. While you may not be able to speed its natural rate, you may
||| be able to encourage it to react.
|||
||| You
||||| can use up muscle glycogen in a few hours (including time to
||||| vomit 😉 but IMHO the liver still takes its own time to dump its
||||| glycogen. It won't replete muscle glycogen anywhere near as fast
||||| as a carb-up
||||| could, so you aren't going to deplete the liver that fast either.
|||
||| I don't think the liver can hold near as much gylcogen as the
||| muscles, right?
|||
|||
|||||
|||||| So, there might be some finite time before that final step
|||||| happens,
|||||| but that could just be added on top of the exercise component.
|||||| Moreso, the draining of liver glycogen could probably be
|||||| accounted
|||||| for so that the exercise, which would be spread of some period of
|||||| time anyway, could stretch over a time span which would
|||||| correspond
|||||| to depleted liver glycogen.
|||||
||||| To extrapolate absurdly, the exercise of "breathing" over a 72
||||| hour period would put you in ketosis. Certainly, that's not a
||||| "fast
||||| track" the OP wanted.
|||
||| the sooner you deplete muscle glycogen, the quicker you enter
||| ketosis, assuming the liver is holding a lot of glycogen in the
||| first place.
|||
|||||
|||||| Over in the bicycling ng groups, people frequently talk about how
|||||| the muscle can hold about 2000 calories in glycogen in muscles.
|||||| Hence, once ould exhaust that amounts by hard riding for a
|||||| period of time. The result of doing that would be to bonk.
|||||
||||| Right, but they're not in ketosis when they bonk. Only if their
||||| diet after the bonk doesn't contain sufficient carbs would they
||||| eventually
||||| go into ketosis.
|||
||| I think one is close to being in ketosis at that point, as the
||| liver would begin dumping glycogen. At this point, ketosis is a
||| certainty provided too many carbs aren't reintroduced into the
||| diet. Hence, it is my supposition that this dumping period can be
||| factored into the time to ketosis. So you do X hours of exercise,
||| maintain diet, and wait a brief time. That would in effect
||| minimize time to ketosis and would serve the OP's inquiry.
|||
|||
|| Actually I knew that working your muscles to failure won't use all
|| the available glucose in your body, I was more interested in the
|| time frame
|| of the cycle of using all the available muscle glucose, refilling it
|| with glucose from the liver and repeating until no more glucose is
|| present/ketosis.

You might post over in mwf to see if lyle will respond. I'd like to know as
well.

Roger Zoul said:

|| Except I see no data that says it's a "brief" time. It's a time, I
|| don't know how long. Maybe I'll ask Lyle.

Good idea....

I was trying to be disagreeble...it is a questioned I'd like answered too!

Two tidbits from Lyle:

1. Exercise does cause the liver to dump glycogen, due to hormonal signals.

2. He doesn't know how much faster the liver empties.

So I guess we'll have to leave this at "exercise helps, but you need
to experiment to find out how much."

DJ Delorie wrote:
|| "Roger Zoul" <[email hidden]> writes:
||||| Except I see no data that says it's a "brief" time. It's a time,
||||| I don't know how long. Maybe I'll ask Lyle.
|||
||| Good idea....
|||
||| I was trying to be disagreeble...it is a questioned I'd like
||| answered too!
||
|| Two tidbits from Lyle:
||
|| 1. Exercise does cause the liver to dump glycogen, due to hormonal
|| signals.
||
|| 2. He doesn't know how much faster the liver empties.
||
|| So I guess we'll have to leave this at "exercise helps, but you need
|| to experiment to find out how much."

Thanks for the info...BTW that should have been "I wasn't trying..." I need
to remember to read what I type before hitting send....

While I have no scientific proof or explanation, my personal experience is
that exercise, mainly weight lifting (moderate weights, high reps) and hard
cardio, combined with LC & restricted calories, very definitely accelerates
the time to re-enter ketosis (nothing new there). I generally don't worry
about how much work I need to do to quickly reenter, though. I just do it.