Re: floating pedal myth DEBUNKED

On Jan 29, 8:02 pm, Steven Bornfeld <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Ryan Cousineau said:

Well, Pruitt's experience may have the better part of this academic
duel, but it bothers me that on one hand we have a pretty theoretical
experiment based on fiddling with dead legs, and on the other hand what
appears to be, more or less, Pruitt's anecdotal, uncontrolled
"experiment" consisting of 30 years of fiddling with live legs.

Quoted message said:

Not that I don't respect Pruitt's experience; if I had to trust only one
of these results, I'd probably trust his. But people are fallible, and
our personal experiences can lead us badly wrong in numerous
well-documented ways. There's a reason why double-blind experiments are
considered the right way to test hypotheses, and it's because very
smart, experienced experts find myriad ways to unintentionally fool
themselves all the time.

Quoted message said:

The death of King Charles II:

You're right, of course.  Also, I assume that Pruitt hassome financial
connection to some of the pedal manufacturers.
        Still, collecting clinical information of this type can beuseful if
properly interpreted.  I'm not sure how you'd do a double-blind study on
a variable so obvious to the subjects.

Steve

Quoted message said:

The lesson there isn't that King Charles II's physicians were dumbasses,
it is that personal experience and non-EB "best practices" in any field
can mislead you.

I'm surprised to see Andy (AKA Dr. Waveflow) represented as an
advocate for pedal float. Back in the 90's he was very much against
free float in pedals (Speedplay) and would recommend Time.

Bret said:

On Jan 29, 8:02 pm, Steven Bornfeld <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Ryan Cousineau wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Well, Pruitt's experience may have the better part of this academic
duel, but it bothers me that on one hand we have a pretty theoretical
experiment based on fiddling with dead legs, and on the other hand what
appears to be, more or less, Pruitt's anecdotal, uncontrolled
"experiment" consisting of 30 years of fiddling with live legs.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Not that I don't respect Pruitt's experience; if I had to trust only one
of these results, I'd probably trust his. But people are fallible, and
our personal experiences can lead us badly wrong in numerous
well-documented ways. There's a reason why double-blind experiments are
considered the right way to test hypotheses, and it's because very
smart, experienced experts find myriad ways to unintentionally fool
themselves all the time.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The death of King Charles II:

Quoted message said:

You're right, of course.  Also, I assume that Pruitt has some financial
connection to some of the pedal manufacturers.
        Still, collecting clinical information of this type can be useful if
properly interpreted.  I'm not sure how you'd do a double-blind study on
a variable so obvious to the subjects.

Quoted message said:

Steve

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The lesson there isn't that King Charles II's physicians were dumbasses,
it is that personal experience and non-EB "best practices" in any field
can mislead you.

I'm surprised to see Andy (AKA Dr. Waveflow) represented as an
advocate for pedal float. Back in the 90's he was very much against
free float in pedals (Speedplay) and would recommend Time.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Some would say that Speedplay's don't have float, only rotation. Time
pedals, on the other hand, don't rotate on a single pivot point but do
allow for side-to-side float combined with minimal rotation
throughout.

I used Time pedals for about two years and found them to be much
better for me than the Look-style pedals I was using before. I
switched to Speedplay's the first year they came out and haven't had
knee problem one since then, which is remarkable considering the
severity of the DJD in my knees and the complete lack of cartilage in
one knee and severe laxity in both knees.

I can't speak to what Time pedals are like now, but I can definitively
say I am a big believer in Speedplay pedals.

In article <[email hidden]>,

Scott said:

Some would say that Speedplay's don't have float, only rotation. Time
pedals, on the other hand, don't rotate on a single pivot point but do
allow for side-to-side float combined with minimal rotation
throughout.

I used Time pedals for about two years and found them to be much
better for me than the Look-style pedals I was using before. I
switched to Speedplay's the first year they came out and haven't had
knee problem one since then, which is remarkable considering the
severity of the DJD in my knees and the complete lack of cartilage in
one knee and severe laxity in both knees.

I can't speak to what Time pedals are like now, but I can definitively
say I am a big believer in Speedplay pedals.

I really like them too. I'd used Times for a while prior to switching. I didn't
like the feel of their float - it just felt sloppy to me. There's a small twitch in
both of my ankles as I pedal and the resistance in the Times (yeah, it's pretty
minimal but I could still feel it) just made that feel odd. I got a set of Speedplays
in '91 (as I recall) and still use them. I've replaced the bodies and plates a few
times.

One thing that I did that I think is a good idea is to modify the lubing setup. I
take them apart, drill a .05" hole through one side in the center - this is under the
plates. To lube, I take the plates off, remove the plug on the outside, then pump
grease in the hole I drilled. This pushes clean grease through both sets of bearings
rather than pushing dirty grease from one set of bearings to the other.

--
tanx,
Howard

Whatever happened to
Leon Trotsky?
He got an icepick
That made his ears burn.
But I've already got a pitchfork...

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

On Tue, 29 Jan 2008 22:01:15 -0800 (PST), Scott
<[email hidden]> wrote:

[---]

Quoted message said:

I used Time pedals for about two years and found them to be much
better for me than the Look-style pedals I was using before. I
switched to Speedplay's the first year they came out and haven't had
knee problem one since then, which is remarkable considering the
severity of the DJD in my knees and the complete lack of cartilage in
one knee and severe laxity in both knees.

How do you manage with a complete lack of cartilage? I'd have thought
every movement would be excruciating painful.

Andrew Price said:

On Tue, 29 Jan 2008 22:01:15 -0800 (PST), Scott

<[email hidden]> wrote:

[---]

Quoted message said:

I used Time pedals for about two years and found them to be much
better for me than the Look-style pedals I was using before.  I
switched to Speedplay's the first year they came out and haven't had
knee problem one since then, which is remarkable considering the
severity of the DJD in my knees and the complete lack of cartilage in
one knee and severe laxity in both knees.

How do you manage with a complete lack of cartilage?  I'd have thought
every movement would be excruciating painful.

Try to picture the interface between the tibia and femur. As my ortho
explained it, there should be a slight rise on the tibia that fits
into a slight v-like notch in the femur, which helps keep the knee
aligned. There should also be the meniscus in there, but mine has
worn away to practically nothing. I have bone-on-bone contact in my
left knee and over time the wear and tear has ground down the little
'tab' on the tibia such that both the tibia and femur are smooth.
With the laxity in the ligaments, a Lachman test on my left knee is a
sight to behold. I also have a very extensive osteophyte formation on
the inside of the knee, which makes my left knee almost a half inch
wider than the right.

The first time I was seen by a particular orthopedist, he seemed
preturbed with me that I was even in his office, since I seemed to be
okay and I've got very muscular thighs. He couldn't imagine I had any
problems. After going for x-rays and having the Lachman test done, he
apologized to me for the way he'd dealt with me, saying that after
seeing the film and doing the test, he couldn't see how I could even
walk.

Surprisingly, its not that painful, except under extreme conditions.

Scott said:

Bret said:

On Jan 29, 8:02 pm, Steven Bornfeld <[email hidden]>
wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Ryan Cousineau wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Well, Pruitt's experience may have the better part of this academic
> duel, but it bothers me that on one hand we have a pretty theoretical
> experiment based on fiddling with dead legs, and on the other hand what
> appears to be, more or less, Pruitt's anecdotal, uncontrolled
> "experiment" consisting of 30 years of fiddling with live legs.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Not that I don't respect Pruitt's experience; if I had to trust only one
> of these results, I'd probably trust his. But people are fallible, and
> our personal experiences can lead us badly wrong in numerous
> well-documented ways. There's a reason why double-blind experiments are
> considered the right way to test hypotheses, and it's because very
> smart, experienced experts find myriad ways to unintentionally fool
> themselves all the time.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> The death of King Charles II:
>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

You're right, of course. Also, I assume that Pruitt has some financial
connection to some of the pedal manufacturers.
Still, collecting clinical information of this type can be useful if
properly interpreted. I'm not sure how you'd do a double-blind study on
a variable so obvious to the subjects.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Steve

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> The lesson there isn't that King Charles II's physicians were dumbasses,
> it is that personal experience and non-EB "best practices" in any field
> can mislead you.

Quoted message said:

I'm surprised to see Andy (AKA Dr. Waveflow) represented as an
advocate for pedal float. Back in the 90's he was very much against
free float in pedals (Speedplay) and would recommend Time.- Hide quoted text -

Quoted message said:

- Show quoted text -

Some would say that Speedplay's don't have float, only rotation. Time
pedals, on the other hand, don't rotate on a single pivot point but do
allow for side-to-side float combined with minimal rotation
throughout.

I used Time pedals for about two years and found them to be much
better for me than the Look-style pedals I was using before. I
switched to Speedplay's the first year they came out and haven't had
knee problem one since then, which is remarkable considering the
severity of the DJD in my knees and the complete lack of cartilage in
one knee and severe laxity in both knees.

I can't speak to what Time pedals are like now, but I can definitively
say I am a big believer in Speedplay pedals.

OK, free rotation then. I got a free pair of Speedplays from a
teammate that was warned off them. I had used the Sampson Stratics
pedal previously which also had free rotation and had liked it, even
though the cleat was hard to walk on. I switched when I had a
catastrophic cleat failure that cost me a race, and then I simply
couldn't buy a replacement cleat even though the Sampson HQ was in
Denver. I panicked and bought some Time Criterium boat anchors. I had
a problem coming out of them in sprints, twice in one sprint I recall.
That's when I switched to Speedplay in the early 90's. I used to have
a set with the original all-aluminum bodies.

Bret