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Re: Helmets

Started by Just zis Guy, you know? · · Last activity · 253 posts · 6,074 views

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Road Cycling
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23 May 2005
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4 June 2005
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Just zis Guy, you know?
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  1. [email hidden] also wrote in part:

    Quoted message said:

    I admit, eight crashes in my career would be too many as well. Again,
    I've had just one, at about 3 mph... oops, no, that one didn't meet
    Moritz's criteria, since the damage and the injury were both too
    trivial. You and I may have to accept the fact that we're better than
    average.

    To be clear, the eight crashes in question are
    significant crashes likely to cause injury. As for
    minor spills like you describe, Moritz' survey
    of LAB members (average age 48, 14+ years experience)
    found that they experienced minor falls ('skinned
    knees'😉 an average of once every 2500 miles or so.
    That translates into about 30 for you and about 90
    for me.

    Robert

  2. On Thu, 02 Jun 2005 01:51:15 GMT, "Donn Deniston"
    <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    <[email hidden]>:

    Quoted message said:

    "The majority of fatal bicycle crashes involving children and adolescents
    (75 percent) could have been prevented with bicycle helmets."

    Really? I wonder why the fatality rate remained unchanged when helmet
    use more than doubled in a single year to the 90% mark, then?

    Oh, wait, I know: ""Bicycle helmets can reduce the risk of a head
    injury by 85 percent and brain injury by 88 percent."

    So, we have the litmus test for bogus data.

    http://www.cyclehelmets.org/mf.html#1131

    Guy
    --
    May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
    http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

    85% of helmet statistics are made up, 69% of them at CHS, Puget Sound

  3. Donn Deniston said:

    Since I've been painted as a pro-helmet zealot and since statistics are so
    important, how about these:

    Actually, just to revisit this for a moment: Donn, do you really think
    that Frank, who has very obviously studied this issue on considerable
    depth, has not seen the figures you cite?

    Guy
    --
    May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
    http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

    88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at CHS, Puget Sound

  4. I didn't write the words Bill and I'm not that concerned about the accuracy
    or the writing style. I was trying to point out to Mr. Statistics that
    stats can be found and used to support any argument and are of dubious value
    to prove anything.

    But you are absolutely correct about your other point, after today I will
    STFU.

    Thanks.

    "Bill Sornson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Donn Deniston said:

    Since I've been painted as a pro-helmet zealot and since statistics
    are so important, how about these: {small snip followed by humongous


    one}

    Quoted message said:


    Quoted message said:

    "The majority of fatal bicycle crashes involving children and
    adolescents (75 percent) could have been prevented with bicycle
    helmets."

    You do realize how poorly worded that sentence is, right? (How does a
    helm*t prevent a crash?!?) That you would quote it doesn't reflect well


    /on

    Quoted message said:

    you/.

    Dude, I'm on your side in this *endless* debate, but please... GIVE IT A
    REST.

  5. Donn Deniston said:

    I didn't write the words Bill and I'm not that concerned about the accuracy
    or the writing style. I was trying to point out to Mr. Statistics that
    stats can be found and used to support any argument and are of dubious value
    to prove anything.

    Here's a key difference: people like Frank and I can tell you
    precisely why those statistics you cited are wrong, giving examples
    and quotations from the studies themselves as supporting evidence.

    Where is the corresponding evidence that what Frank says is wrong?

    Guy
    --
    May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
    http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

    88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at CHS, Puget Sound

  6. you know? said:
    Donn Deniston said:

    Since I've been painted as a pro-helmet zealot and since statistics are so
    important, how about these:

    Actually, just to revisit this for a moment: Donn, do you really think
    that Frank, who has very obviously studied this issue on considerable
    depth, has not seen the figures you cite?

    Guy

    I think it is quite possible that Frank isn't the only one reading
    these posts.

    Life is Good!
    Jeff

  7. On Thu, 02 Jun 2005 13:18:00 GMT, Jeff Starr <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Actually, just to revisit this for a moment: Donn, do you really think
    that Frank, who has very obviously studied this issue on considerable
    depth, has not seen the figures you cite?

    Quoted message said:

    I think it is quite possible that Frank isn't the only one reading
    these posts.

    For sure. It just amazes me the way people always pull that figure
    (85%) out of the air - or rather off the web - in these discussions.
    It just shows how much work there is still to do, I guess.

    Guy
    --
    May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
    http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

    88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at CHS, Puget Sound

  8. Just zis Guy said:
    Donn Deniston said:

    Since I've been painted as a pro-helmet zealot and since statistics are so
    important, how about these:

    Actually, just to revisit this for a moment: Donn, do you really think
    that Frank, who has very obviously studied this issue on considerable
    depth, has not seen the figures you cite?

    Guy
    --
    May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
    http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

    88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at CHS, Puget Sound

    Of course, I'm sure he's seen the data and I'm equally sure he'll find
    a way to refute the data. Which goes to my point: statistics are not
    static, they are dynamic and subjective as hell and thus worthless to
    'prove' anything.

    Frank cites an impressive amount of information to support his cause,
    but why is his data any more valid than the stuff I found? It took me
    very little time to dig out the stats I posted and there was a lot
    more. Frank invited me to do some research, I did and found plenty of
    information that contradicts his anti-helmet position. I haven't read
    Frank's reply yet but I'm sure he'll counter with an intelligent
    message heavy with even more numbers.

    Why should I or anyone else accept his data and conclusions over the
    stuff I found? I can print a pile of research and so can Frank and,
    taken at face value, both piles will provide plenty of compelling
    reading for anyone who wishes to make a decision regarding the use of a
    bicycle helmet.

  9. Just zis Guy said:

    On Thu, 02 Jun 2005 13:18:00 GMT, Jeff Starr <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Actually, just to revisit this for a moment: Donn, do you really think
    that Frank, who has very obviously studied this issue on considerable
    depth, has not seen the figures you cite?

    Quoted message said:

    I think it is quite possible that Frank isn't the only one reading
    these posts.

    For sure. It just amazes me the way people always pull that figure
    (85%) out of the air - or rather off the web - in these discussions.
    It just shows how much work there is still to do, I guess.

    Oh, without a doubt. One tiny, badly constructed study in 1989 gives a
    ludicrously optimistic figure, and every handwringer in the business
    puts it in every bit of helmet promotion literature. Every group of
    legislators that considers mandating helmets listens to that figure
    over and over.

    But it's been 16 years now, and AFAIK _no_ jurisdiction has seen the
    benefit it predicted! Dozens of other studies have been done, and none
    AFAIK has duplicated its findings. Even the notorious T&R were unable
    to match that stratospheric number in their own subsequent studies -
    yet it's always the super-high number that gets quoted!

    It's as if we had a dozen thermometers measuring the temperature
    outside, and we paid attention ONLY to the one that was stuck at its
    maximum! It's ludicrous.

    Or perhaps better: It's as if someone was betting against us, and they
    were telling us the supposed odds. "Bet $100 against me. The odds are
    85% that you'll win!" But you don't win. You lose $100. "Well, bet
    $30. Remember, 85% odds!" But you lose $30. "Hey, you never know.
    But bet $20 for your kid's sake! Remember, 85%!" But you lose again.

    People keep shoveling money out to buy helmets. The odds are always
    85%, according to the sellers. But when the money's counted at the end
    of the game, it all flows one way.

    People are very, very susceptible to this. It's how Las Vegas was
    built. And the people who paid for Las Vegas are probably all positive
    that their math teachers were fools.

    - Frank Krygowski

  10. Quoted message said:

    I've been saying it, R15757. Driving is safe. It's so safe that young
    mothers drive with their newborn babies in the car. It's so safe that
    entire families go on vacations by car, with no provisions for their
    burial if they don't survive. It's so safe that the most timid
    citizens drive, albeit more slowly than most. It's so safe that when
    my wife left by car, just 30 minutes ago, we did no dramatic parting
    scene with hugs and tears.

    Haha. That may be true, but in my family we always have this dramatic
    hugging and parting scenes. I shed tears knowing that I'll be home alone
    all day able to run with scissors and wear just my bunny slippers...er, I
    mean because the little darling are going to be apart ...

    BTW, really enjoyed your little touring journal "A little Summer Ride".

    I note that you guys were in pretty good shape, but have to applaud your
    wife and daughter for making it, considering even you were daunted by all
    the climbing!

    Kudos also for being able to make friends with the State Patrolman. Wow.

    Looks like you had extraordinary good luck with your accomodations and the
    nice people you met. Not at all like some of the stories I've heard.

    To touch on the 'biking isn't dangerous' - I agree with you, but I have to
    say I feel a little bit nervous when I go out to ride each day. I guess the
    only way to cure that is to have a lot of riding days.

    Some days I do seem to have what I might consider low danger close calls.
    Those are mostly in low traffic areas where there's suddenly a confluence
    of multiple vehicles and we all have to make several decisions about what
    to do.

    One of those recently is when I came out of a side street on a dead end,
    onto another dead end street. This T-intersection had high hedges and there
    was another vehicle turning onto my street. I went around the corner and
    turned left, and durn if there wasn't another car stopped right behind the
    guy that had turned, but he was having to wair until the slow turner
    finished, and he was stopped. I came out and ended up suddenly right in
    front of him. Good thing he wasn't moving or we would have collided at
    about 5mph, my fault. But I really didn't feel like I was taking a chance,
    nor did I ride out into the road recklessly.

    That's mostly the kinds of 'oopsies' I have riding. All low speed, or
    nearly stopped, but trying to get around someone just starting up and
    pulling out parallel from their house at 2mph, or someone backing up at
    2mph and pulling back in to get a better alignment on his parking space and
    things like that. I don't know how much more 'cautious' I could ride. I do
    look in the back window and listen for the motor, but there is a parking
    lot I ride through to loop where many times I go by a car and it's idling
    and I'd have never known. I just try and give plenty of clearance and hope
    nobody does a Vin Diesel pull out! <g>

    I think I do really well in normal traffic, following the EC principles,
    signalling, merging, taking the lane and being careful on left and right
    hooks and intersections and driveways. Never really had even a close call
    in that kind of riding.

    jj

  11. jj said:

    BTW, really enjoyed your little touring journal "A little Summer Ride".

    Thanks. That's at
    http://www.bicyclinglife.com/Recreation/ALittleSummerRide.htm for those
    who are interested.

    Quoted message said:

    I note that you guys were in pretty good shape, but have to applaud your
    wife and daughter for making it, considering even you were daunted by all
    the climbing!

    Oh, I'm proud of them!

    Quoted message said:

    To touch on the 'biking isn't dangerous' - I agree with you, but I have to
    say I feel a little bit nervous when I go out to ride each day. I guess the
    only way to cure that is to have a lot of riding days.

    Experience certainly helps!

    Quoted message said:


    Some days I do seem to have what I might consider low danger close calls.
    Those are mostly in low traffic areas where there's suddenly a confluence
    of multiple vehicles and we all have to make several decisions about what
    to do.


    ....

    Quoted message said:


    That's mostly the kinds of 'oopsies' I have riding. All low speed, or
    nearly stopped, but trying to get around someone just starting up and
    pulling out parallel from their house at 2mph, or someone backing up at
    2mph and pulling back in to get a better alignment on his parking space and
    things like that....

    I think I do really well in normal traffic, following the EC principles,
    signalling, merging, taking the lane and being careful on left and right
    hooks and intersections and driveways. Never really had even a close call
    in that kind of riding.

    I think you've brought up an important point. It really is the
    _unusual_ situations that cause the trouble. When everyone is just
    rolling along like normal, in reasonable obedience to the laws, obeying
    traffic signals, following the lane markings, etc. it all works very
    well.

    Crashes between vehicles come mostly from people ad-libbing... "I can
    just do a U-turn here." "There's nobody coming, I'll beat that red
    light." "Omigosh, I missed my exit, I'll just back up."

    My state of mind when riding is quite relaxed, except when the least
    thing out-of-ordinary happens. Then I go on high alert, ready for
    emergency maneuvers.

    The motion of cars being parked or un-parked is _very_ unpredictable,
    and always good for a red flag. In fact, parking lots are _never_
    relaxing for me. Cars approaching from the side set off warnings.
    Kids on the sidewalk on bikes do the same. What if they ride out into
    the street?

    I think part of my mind is always playing "What if?" and thinking about
    the possible bad scenarios. It's not a big part, to be sure. I'm
    mostly extremely relaxed when I ride - but that one part of me is
    always paying attention, and it takes over in a flash if the situation
    looks the least abnormal.

    Again, I think all this comes with practice. BTW, that's one thing
    nice about commuting by bike: You get repeated practice on the same
    roads, and you learn those lessons well. Then you branch out to apply
    them elsewhere.

    It's kind of like practicing scales on your musical instrument. You
    get them to be automatic, and then you apply them in lots of tunes.

    - Frank Krygowski

  12. Quoted message said:

    Do you want me to tell you the problems with each of those studies?

    Frank, I was counting on it!

    You took the time to shoot down two of my sources, which appear to be
    the most dubious and notorious and probably the reason they were so
    easy to locate, but what about the others?

    Surely you're not suggesting that each and every study that concludes
    in favor of helmet use is funded by Snell, et al.? Even I'm not that
    jaded.

    But my point wasn't providing numbers and data, it was providing you
    with an opportunity to make a compelling argument against published
    reports and prove my position that any data, yours included, can be
    skewed, interpreted and corrupted.

    Quoted message said:

    If you'd like more detailed discussion on these points, I suggest
    www.cyclehelmets.org
    Seriously - try to get both sides of the story. This is not a simple issue.

    I will and I agree.

    Quoted message said:

    But you should consider: The helmet skeptics are selling nothing. They have >no profit to make from "buying" statistics. As they say - "Follow the money."

    Then what is the motivation? What is your motivation? You've
    obviously spent a great deal of time and energy on this subject. Why?

    I don't doubt for a minute that an organization that has a vested
    interest in continued helmet sales will be apt to influence or promote
    a pro-helmet study, but what motivates the helmet skeptics such as
    yourself? Is it really about helmets?

    With all due respect, you impress me as someone who does not like to be
    contradicted. You tend to hide behind numbers and percentages (to be
    fair, you do rationalize them well) and you have a habit of
    interpreting what was said and replying to your spin rather than what
    was actually stated.

    It doesn't bode well in a debate when one person has to keep
    reiterating the same point over and over because the other person
    insists on speaking for both parties.

    Quoted message said:

    This is somewhat more measured than what you said previously, so I'd
    say we're making progress!

    Well, I'd consider some of that progress is you finally addressing
    what I've said and not what you think I've said.

    Quoted message said:

    And I'll point out that the proof mentioned in "e)" is - or should be
    considered - practically impossible.

    Which is what I said . . . hmmmm, more progress!

    Quoted message said:

    That doesn't mean, however, that some lawyer for some wealthy,
    irresponsible driver wouldn't try to make a cyclist pay for his
    client's negligence. As others have mentioned, this has already been
    used with some success in at least one instance, despite the lack of a
    mandatory helmet law (point "a"😉.

    If a helmet law is not in place then I don't see how the use, or lack
    of, could be factored into a determination but nothing about our legal
    system would surprise me.

    And that's it for me. It's a beautiful sunny day and I have a date
    with a shiny new bicycle.

    I've enjoyed the give and take but I think I've overstayed my
    welcome in this thread and we've both become a little ponderous and
    didactic.

  13. D2 said:

    Of course, I'm sure he's seen the data and I'm equally sure he'll find
    a way to refute the data. Which goes to my point: statistics are not
    static, they are dynamic and subjective as hell and thus worthless to
    'prove' anything.

    No, you are missing the point. What you cite is a secondary source,
    Frank and I have looked at the original paper from which those figures
    are taken. We have also looked at the original papers from which the
    claims of no benefit are taken.

    On the one hand you have small-scale studies which say that there is a
    difference in head injury rate between helmeted and unhelmeted
    cyclists. On the other hand you have figures from whole populations
    which say that there is no discernible change in recorded head injury
    rates as helmet use rises.

    Both are right.

    What is wrong is to claim that the small-scale studies predict that
    getting non-wearers to wear helmets will reduce their incidence of
    head injury to the same as the voluntary wearers. And the studies
    themselves steer clear of making such a claim.

    It is helmet promoters who claim that if non-wearers wear helmets,
    they will exhibit the injury profile of wearers. They say that the
    small-scale studies are predictive - but they are wrong, and it's been
    proven that they are wrong because several places have achieved
    increases of 40 percentage points or more in helmet use over a very
    short period through legislation and *not one* of those places shows
    any reduction in the proportion of cyclists' injuries which are head
    injuries as a result.

    So the science is fine (up to a point), it's the representation of the
    science by people with an agenda which is a problem.

    Now you may say that Frank and I have an agenda, and you'd be right,
    but you have to remember that both of us used to be enthusiastic
    advocates of helmets and have changed our view radically in response
    to the data we've seen. Not second-hand reports of data, but source
    data from the studies themselves.

    But I absolutely encourage you to make up your own mind. Here's a
    reading list for you:

    http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk/Web/public.nsf/Documents/Research_Evidence

    Quoted message said:

    Frank cites an impressive amount of information to support his cause,
    but why is his data any more valid than the stuff I found? It took me
    very little time to dig out the stats I posted and there was a lot
    more. Frank invited me to do some research, I did and found plenty of
    information that contradicts his anti-helmet position. I haven't read
    Frank's reply yet but I'm sure he'll counter with an intelligent
    message heavy with even more numbers.

    Frank's data is more valid than what you found because what you found
    is not data, it's someone's use of data to promote an agenda. From
    your perspective there's no difference, because to you both are third
    parties, but that just means you need to do what Frank did and go back
    to the source data.

    There are a few reasons the 1989 Seattle study, in particular, gets my
    goat (and Frank's too).

    First, it was written by a group who were already strongly pro-helmet
    when they started, and the preamble makes it clear that they set out
    to prove their case rather than to investigate.

    Second, it arrives at its conclusions by comparing entirely different
    groups of cyclists. If helmets "prevent" 85% of head injuries then
    they also "prevent" black skin, low income, riding on roads instead of
    bike trails, riding unaccompanied, and being hit by cars. They also
    "prevent" 72% of broken legs. All this is taken direct from the
    authors' source data.

    Third, it does not in any case claim that helmets "prevent" x% of
    injuries, as noted above, but it is generally represented as if it
    does.

    Fourth, it assumes a helmet wearing rate in the general population
    which one of the co-authors knew was four or five times above the
    actual level, because he had conducted counts on the streets of
    Seattle at the same time as the study data was being collected.

    Fifth, the figures it comes up with have never, to my knowledge, been
    matched or exceeded by any other study of this or any other type.
    Given the criticisms above, which have been published in the medical
    press, why are these figures still quoted? Answer: because according
    to Randy Swart of BHSI the figures are "so ingrained in the injury
    prevention [sic] community that a change would not be helpful". Got
    that? It's more important to be helpful to those trying to sell
    helmets, than to be honest.

    Sixth, the terms "head injury" and especially "brain injury" are used
    in a dishonest way. The public perception of brain injury is
    something which leaves you with permanent intellectual impairment.
    These injuries are incredibly rare; what the study means by brain
    injury is *concussion* - which, in almost every case, has no lasting
    consequences. The use of the term brain injury is extremely unlikely
    to be understood by the majority of laymen as meaning concussion, but
    that is what it means. There is precious little evidence that any
    helmet on sale then or now will mitigate the kind of brain injury
    which leads to permanent intellectual impairment, whatever the
    handwringers might say.

    So there's a few reasons why, in my view, any web page or publication
    which uses the figure 85% or 88% should immediately be torn up and
    thrown away. Either it is written by someone ignorant of the facts,
    or it is written by someone who knows the facts and chooses to ignore
    them. And in this case I am using the transitive definition of facts,
    in the sense that it is incontrovertibly true that the 1989 Seattle
    study is poor science and anybody who takes a genuine interest in the
    subject must know it.

    Quoted message said:

    Why should I or anyone else accept his data and conclusions over the
    stuff I found? I can print a pile of research and so can Frank and,
    taken at face value, both piles will provide plenty of compelling
    reading for anyone who wishes to make a decision regarding the use of a
    bicycle helmet.

    No you can't print a pile of research, you can print a pile of
    citations and maybe abstracts but the majority of those papers are
    copyright and not available on the web. Frank and I have accumulated
    large libraries of helmet papers, we buy them, we email authors for
    copies, we get them from libraries. I have a library of about 700
    documents, including a couple of hundred published studies.

    Do read some of the sources, and look for a couple of things:

    See if they give a realistic, objective appraisal of the risk of
    cycling compared to other activities. X thousand injuries is big, but
    how big compared to, say, driving or walking on city streets?
    Objectively, cycling is not very dangerous.

    See if they genuinely claim that helmets can prevent the most serious
    injuries. In most cases the mean ISS for the "prevented" injuries is
    very low and in any case the helmeted community tend to have a lower
    mean ISS than the unhelmeted, due to their being the risk-0averse ones
    to start with.

    See how many injuries involving motor traffic are included. The
    Thompsons claim that helmets prevent motor traffic injuries, based in
    part on data which includes _no_ helmeted cyclists in collision with
    cars! Yet almost all serious and fatal injuries are sustained in
    collision with motor vehicles (and it's usually the motor driver's
    fault).

    See if they name the sources, and if the claims they make are verified
    by those sources. I recently found out that here in the UK the helmet
    promoters have been using a figure for child fatalities which is an
    "estimate based on under reporting" (of child fatalities? in a western
    democracy?) and is actually five times the real figure as published by
    the Government. They claimed it came from a Parliamentary report, but
    they were not being terribly honest about that...

    OK, one last point. Here is a paragraph from a helmet standard of
    1989 (standards are a lot less stringent now).

    "It (the standard) specifies requirements for helmets intended for
    use by pedal cyclists on ordinary roads, particularly by young
    riders in the 5 years to 14 years age group, but which may also
    be suitable for off the road. It is not intended for high-speed
    or long distance cycling, or for riders taking part in
    competitive events. The level of protection offered is less than
    that given by helmets for motor-cycle riders and is intended to
    give protection in the kind of accident in which the rider falls
    onto the road without other vehicles being involved."

    I will send you a $10 certified money order if you can find me a
    single manufacturer which claims, on any cycle helmet sold in the USA
    or Europe, that it provides meaningful protection in collisions
    involving motor vehicles.

    Guy
    --
    May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
    http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

    88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at CHS, Puget Sound

  14. D2 said:

    Surely you're not suggesting that each and every study that concludes
    in favor of helmet use is funded by Snell, et al.? Even I'm not that
    jaded.

    They all share a common flaw:
    http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk/web/public.nsf/Documents/observational_studies

    And yes, we probably have read them all ;-)
    http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk/web/public.nsf/Documents/research_evidence

    Guy
    --
    May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
    http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

    88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at CHS, Puget Sound

  15. D2 said:
    Quoted message said:

    Do you want me to tell you the problems with each of those studies?

    Frank, I was counting on it!

    You took the time to shoot down two of my sources, which appear to be
    the most dubious and notorious and probably the reason they were so
    easy to locate, but what about the others?

    As I said (and as you agreed to in what I'm trimming for brevity),
    anyone interested in the details on helmet studies should - no, _must_
    visit www.cyclehelmets.org

    Quoted message said:

    But my point wasn't providing numbers and data, it was providing you
    with an opportunity to make a compelling argument against published
    reports and prove my position that any data, yours included, can be
    skewed, interpreted and corrupted.

    Data can be, and often is, skewed and corrupted. But it's fallacy to
    think that there can be no good data! What's needed is critical
    thinking - that is, examining the research in detail and looking for
    strengths and weaknesses.

    I'll admit, some of the papers we talk about feature very heavy math,
    and this might impede understanding for many people. But the
    discussions online do attempt to explain many of the mathematical
    points.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    But you should consider: The helmet skeptics are selling nothing. They have >no profit to make from "buying" statistics. As they say - "Follow the money."

    Then what is the motivation? What is your motivation? You've
    obviously spent a great deal of time and energy on this subject. Why?

    I don't doubt for a minute that an organization that has a vested
    interest in continued helmet sales will be apt to influence or promote
    a pro-helmet study, but what motivates the helmet skeptics such as
    yourself? Is it really about helmets?

    There are several things that motivate me. First, I've always loved
    cycling, and at a certain point in my life, I made a conscious decision
    to promote it. (See
    http://www.bicyclinglife.com/NewsAndViews/philosophy.htm) (Note, that
    in itself didn't make me a helmet skeptic. Until I learned more, I
    tended to promote helmet use.)

    Second, I really am addicted to learning and teaching. It's what I do.
    I got curious about this issue when I read of extremely competent
    statisticians saying the numbers behind helmet promotion were bogus, so
    I started getting the papers from the library and studying them. I
    learned these statisticians were right! And when someone discusses
    something I know about, I'm not shy about telling what I know.

    Third, relating to that last sentence: I have a low tolerance for
    [censored]. "We must invade Iraq immediately," "We will have a hydrogen
    economy in twenty years," "Everyone should hire more [women, blacks,
    gays] to increase diversity," "Paris Hilton is very interesting" are
    all likely to draw an unfavorable comment from me. But I have an
    _especially_ low tolerance for [censored] about something I love. Again,
    this is related to a conscious decision I made.

    Quoted message said:

    With all due respect, you impress me as someone who does not like to be
    contradicted.

    Well, I think few of us enjoy being contradicted!

    Quoted message said:

    You tend to hide behind numbers and percentages (to be
    fair, you do rationalize them well)...

    Nope, I'm hiding nothing. I'm telling what I know.

    Quoted message said:

    ... and you have a habit of
    interpreting what was said and replying to your spin rather than what
    was actually stated.

    I'm sorry, but I think that last is the remnants of your denial about
    punishing helmetless cyclists. Or more precisely, reducing their
    rights to sue negligent drivers in court.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    That doesn't mean, however, that some lawyer for some wealthy,
    irresponsible driver wouldn't try to make a cyclist pay for his
    client's negligence. As others have mentioned, this has already been
    used with some success in at least one instance, despite the lack of a
    mandatory helmet law (point "a"😉.

    If a helmet law is not in place then I don't see how the use, or lack
    of, could be factored into a determination but nothing about our legal
    system would surprise me.

    Again, this _has_ happened, and the cyclist lost 25% of the award,
    IIRC, because the judge thought he should have worn a helmet despite
    lack of such a law! I believe someone posted a citation. If not, I
    can probably dig it up.

    Quoted message said:

    And that's it for me. It's a beautiful sunny day and I have a date
    with a shiny new bicycle.

    I've enjoyed the give and take but I think I've overstayed my
    welcome in this thread and we've both become a little ponderous and
    didactic.

    :-) Not me! I still feel quite nimble and knowledgeable.

    - Frank Krygowski

  16. Jeff Starr said:
    John_Kane said:
    Quoted message said:


    I've given them up. They are too dangerous. Twice, my helmet has
    caused me to almost crash (both times in dangerous situations). I would
    probably wear one if I had to but otherwise I feel safer without one.

    Hi, could you please tell us how your helmet almost caused you to
    crash?

    Life is Good!
    Jeff

    Twice while riding in hot weather I failed to notice a heavy sweat
    buildup in the pads in my helmet. The first instance this happened I
    was descending a long winding hill, went into a crouch and was blinded
    by a sudden rush of salty water into my eyes. This is not good at
    about 70-75 k/hr. Similarly the second time I was riding in a double
    pace line, leaned forward and was blinded for a moment by salt water.
    Again not a good place to lose vision.

    AFAIR in neither case was there any real warning. I suppose if I rode
    in very hot weather all the time I would be more likely to be prepared
    for something like this but while we get some fairly hot weather in my
    part of Ontario we just don't get "that" much.

    Both probably freakish accidents but they did not endear helmets to me.
    After reading up on the relevant research I decided that the only real
    use for the helmet was my helmet mirror and I could always switch to a
    mirror for my glasses.

    John Kane
    Kingston ON
    J

    John Kane

  17. John_Kane said:

    Twice while riding in hot weather I failed to notice a heavy sweat
    buildup in the pads in my helmet. The first instance this happened I
    was descending a long winding hill, went into a crouch and was blinded
    by a sudden rush of salty water into my eyes. This is not good at
    about 70-75 k/hr. Similarly the second time I was riding in a double
    pace line, leaned forward and was blinded for a moment by salt water.
    Again not a good place to lose vision.

    AFAIR in neither case was there any real warning. I suppose if I rode
    in very hot weather all the time I would be more likely to be prepared
    for something like this but while we get some fairly hot weather in my
    part of Ontario we just don't get "that" much.

    Both probably freakish accidents but they did not endear helmets to me.
    After reading up on the relevant research I decided that the only real
    use for the helmet was my helmet mirror and I could always switch to a
    mirror for my glasses.

    First, you can make any decision you choose.
    Second, these "events" are not accidents- freakish or otherwise. If you
    had crashed that would be an accident.

    And a question. Did you wait for your eyes to clear before reading up?

    This is precisely the type of nonsense comments that make the debate
    less usefull.

  18. :-) Not me! I still feel quite nimble and knowledgeable.

    Hmmmm. . . maybe THAT's the problem.

    Cheers
    🙂

  19. gds said:
    John_Kane said:

    Twice while riding in hot weather I failed to notice a heavy sweat
    buildup in the pads in my helmet. The first instance this happened I
    was descending a long winding hill, went into a crouch and was blinded
    by a sudden rush of salty water into my eyes. This is not good at
    about 70-75 k/hr. Similarly the second time I was riding in a double
    pace line, leaned forward and was blinded for a moment by salt water.
    Again not a good place to lose vision.

    AFAIR in neither case was there any real warning. I suppose if I rode
    in very hot weather all the time I would be more likely to be prepared
    for something like this but while we get some fairly hot weather in my
    part of Ontario we just don't get "that" much.

    Both probably freakish accidents but they did not endear helmets to me.
    After reading up on the relevant research I decided that the only real
    use for the helmet was my helmet mirror and I could always switch to a
    mirror for my glasses.

    First, you can make any decision you choose.
    Second, these "events" are not accidents- freakish or otherwise. If you
    had crashed that would be an accident.

    Being temorarily blinded seemed enough of a problem to be termed an
    accident. I guess our defintions vary.

    Quoted message said:


    And a question. Did you wait for your eyes to clear before reading up?

    Quoted message said:


    This is precisely the type of nonsense comments that make the debate
    less usefull.

    Mr. Starr asked and I replied.

    It is an anecdote of how a helmet IMHO endangered me twice. I fail to
    see how this is nonsense except that it apparently does not fit with
    your preconceptions.

    John Kane

  20. The nonsense is your definiton of an accident! Really, having played
    sports my whole life I must say that I have had persperation drip into
    my eyes literally thousands of times. Did I have thousands of
    accidents? This is purely argumentum ad absurdum.

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