Re: I crash into religion

[jtaylor]

"Sorni" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

> >>
> >> OK, my quote -- again, written /in context/ -- was this: "I don't
> >> need "data" to help me make simple, basic decisions." Can you make
> >> a distinction between that and the blanket MISQUOTE you've
> >> attributed to me numerous times now?
> >>
> >> It was a reply to Frank, who was belittling me for not being
> >> interested in spending hours and hours reading obscure tomes
> >> supposedly devoted to scientific research when in fact they're often
> >> biased and flawed (IMO). I simply have zero interest in doing that,
> >
> > How can you say that they are biased and flawed if you will not read
> > them?
>
> You missed the word "often". HTH.
> >

So, how many studies on the subject of cyckle helmets have you read? One
would presume that, in order to describe them as "often" biased and flawed,
you would have had to read a great many of them, probably the majority.
Were that the case, the fact that you still believe cycle helmets to be a
psoitive health benefit is astounding.

 

[Sorni]

jtaylor wrote:
> "Sorni" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> jtaylor wrote:
>>> "Sorni" <[email protected]> wrote in
>>> message news:[email protected]...
>>>
>>>> While many mountain bikers and BMXers use such pads, most people of
>>>> course deem their head more important to protect than their limbs.
>>>> Gray matter, facial features, eyes, etc.
>>>
>>> You wear a cycle helmet that covers your face and eyes?
>>
>
>
>>
>> (My comment, /in context/, was that most mtb-ers don't wear all the
>> elbow and knee pads and chest protectors, etc. They DO wear helmets
>> because the head is more important to at least /try/ to protect.
>> Yours may not be.)
>>
>
> But why, then, did you say "facial features, eyes, etc."

Because along with helmets most mountain bikers wear -- gasp -- protective
eyewear. (As for "facial features", a regular helmet can help protect them
in some circumstances; and I suppose that some mtb-ers wear mouth-guards,
too.)

The /point/ of my comment was that most mountain bikers don't wear "Star
Wars" plastic courage pads and armor.

BTW, you gonna hump EVERY post I make from now on -- including revisiting
ones from almost two weeks ago?

> Are you subscribing to the supposed magical protective properties of
> helmets - y'know, like the ability to prevent something like 75% of
> leg injuries?

Please find a quote from me suggesting anything remotely like that.

{blowing tumbleweed wave file goes here}

 

[[email protected]]

jtaylor wrote:
> "John Forrest Tomlinson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > On Mon, 22 May 2006 07:55:50 -0300, "jtaylor"
> > <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > >You wear a cycle helmet that covers your face and eyes?
> >
> > Some do -- those motorcycle-style helmet with moutgaurds and face
> > masks. I saw a bike messenger in an actual motorcycle helmet, on the
> > road, on Friday.
> >
>
> Good god, next we'll have MFFHL's (Manditory Full-Face Helmet Laws).

Don't laugh. Thompson & Rivara, of "85%" fame, produced one paper that
wailed about injuries to the chins and lower faces of cyclists, and
pointed out that helmets with rigid chin guards would reduce these
tragedies.

I don't recall if they called for making these mandatory, as they do
for other helmets. If there's interest, I can dig out a citation.

- Frank Krygowski

 

[jtaylor]

"Sorni" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news[email protected]...

>
> > Are you subscribing to the supposed magical protective properties of
> > helmets - y'know, like the ability to prevent something like 75% of
> > leg injuries?
>
> Please find a quote from me suggesting anything remotely like that.
>

Well, basically any post you make which

a) indicates that you believe that helmets have a population level benefit

b) says you know so-and-so and he/she had such-and-such an accident and
his/her helemt saved their life

falls into that category...

 

[Sorni]

jtaylor wrote:
> "Sorni" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news[email protected]...
>
>>
>>> Are you subscribing to the supposed magical protective properties of
>>> helmets - y'know, like the ability to prevent something like 75% of
>>> leg injuries?
>>
>> Please find a quote from me suggesting anything remotely like that.
>>
>
> Well, basically any post you make which
>
> a) indicates that you believe that helmets have a population level
> benefit

Don't recall ever saying that, but yes I think cyclists /in general/ are
safer wearing helmets; and that I, in particular, am because of the type of
riding I do. Just by coincidence, the 50 or 60 other cyclists I know or
have known personally all seem to think the same, as they all wear lids,
too. And then, of course, there are the literally thousands I've seen on
trails and roads, and the vast majority apparently agree, as well. It's
quite unusual to see a "real cyclist" around here riding lidless. Sorry.


> b) says you know so-and-so and he/she had such-and-such an accident
> and his/her helemt saved their life

I've never* claimed a helmet saved anyone's life (including my own). Sorry.

*It's possible I /may/ have said or thought that many years ago, but reading
more about the issue has pretty much convinced me that it's highly unlikely
(although not impossible in far-fetched scenarios)...

Sorry.

 

[Tony Raven]

Sorni wrote:
>
> Don't recall ever saying that, but yes I think cyclists /in general/ are
> safer wearing helmets; and that I, in particular, am because of the type of
> riding I do. Just by coincidence, the 50 or 60 other cyclists I know or
> have known personally all seem to think the same, as they all wear lids,
> too. And then, of course, there are the literally thousands I've seen on
> trails and roads, and the vast majority apparently agree, as well. It's
> quite unusual to see a "real cyclist" around here riding lidless. Sorry.
>

One million lemmings can't be wrong eh? Many professional sports people
have curious rituals that they have to perform to give them luck. They
are convinced they work but I doubt any of us would give them much credence.

What you say about cyclists in the US is very true and I have found very
strongly held views to be very common there. I believe 38% of US
cyclists wear a helmet compared with 22% in the UK yet the UK head
injury rate per bn km is half that of the US despite the narrower roads,
more aggressive driving and much higher traffic density and speed in the
UK. In the Netherlands where its only 0.1%, head injury rates are a
further factor of three lower.

Meanwhile in your own backyard of San Diego where there is an MHL for
under 18's, Ji et al noted "Despite the increase of helmet use, we were
not able to show significant reduction of serious head injury rates over
the study period."


>
> I've never* claimed a helmet saved anyone's life (including my own). Sorry.
>
> *It's possible I /may/ have said or thought that many years ago, but reading
> more about the issue has pretty much convinced me that it's highly unlikely
> (although not impossible in far-fetched scenarios)...
>

So you disagree with Todd's view that they twice saved his life?


--
Tony

"Anyone who conducts an argument by appealing to authority is not using
his intelligence; he is just using his memory."
- Leonardo da Vinci

 

[John Forrest Tomlinson]

On Tue, 23 May 2006 17:42:26 +0100, Tony Raven <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Sorni wrote:
>>
>> Don't recall ever saying that, but yes I think cyclists /in general/ are
>> safer wearing helmets; and that I, in particular, am because of the type of
>> riding I do. Just by coincidence, the 50 or 60 other cyclists I know or
>> have known personally all seem to think the same, as they all wear lids,
>> too. And then, of course, there are the literally thousands I've seen on
>> trails and roads, and the vast majority apparently agree, as well. It's
>> quite unusual to see a "real cyclist" around here riding lidless. Sorry.
>>
>
>One million lemmings can't be wrong eh? Many professional sports people
>have curious rituals that they have to perform to give them luck. They
>are convinced they work but I doubt any of us would give them much credence.

I was and still am a hobby cyclist (except for a brief period working
as a messenger) but for sure the helmet was a big part of my
demonstrating to myself and the cycling community that I was
"serious."

JT

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