Re: Interesting viewpoint

in message <[email hidden]>, Krusty

(') said:

Quoted message said:

This guy did not 'slide a car off to the edge'. He slid the car off
to the edge, across eight feet of grass verge, bounced off a wall,
back across the eight feet of verge again, right across the whole
width of the road, and ended on the other verge.

So? There's nothing remotely strange about that if you hit a patch of
black ice at 50mph.

If there's ice about - if you have reasonable reason to believe there is
ice about, such as scraping ice off your windscreen for five minutes - and
you drive at 50mph, then that's criminal - dangerous driving - in itself.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; better than your average performing pineapple

Krusty said:

Ice on a windscreen doesn't equal ice on the road. If you don't know
that, you've obviously never owned a car.

Didn't say it does, just suggested it should set the alert status from
green to amber at least.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

but that few
miles completely removes any possibility at the accident site?

Obviously not.

Excatly.

Quoted message said:

OK so you get up in the morning & have to scrape your windscreen. You
then start driving at 15mph on roads that are completely free of ice.
How far do you go before you decide it's safe to drive faster - 1 mile,
10 miles, all the way? You drive at a speed you judge to be safe based
on the conditions. If those conditions suddenly change without any
warning, you may get away with it, you may not. This guy didn't.

Who said anything about 15 mph? You just plucked it out of the air.
Why the sudden jump from 15 to 50?

Quoted message said:

Oh FFS - 'blasting along at those sorts of speed'? If you genuinely
drive everywhere at 10mph whenever the temperature drops below zero, I
feel really sorry for all the people sat in the queue behind you.

Who said anything about 10 mph? You just plucked it out of the air.

Quoted message said:

I'll leave you to work out how long it would take me to get from
Swindon to Birmingham at 10mph - bearing in mind this was my daily
commute for three years.

Who said anything about 10 mph? You just plucked it out of the air.

You also seem to have decided to do the commute on untreated back-roads
for no apparent reason. Why?

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Ace said:

On 28 Jun 2007 10:25:25 GMT, "CT" <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

My car (like most I guess these days) displays the ambient temperature
and when it's below 5 degrees, a little 'snow flake' symbol is also
shown so I know when to crawl along at 5mph.

Mine has one of these too, and generally I take it to mean I shouldn't
exceed 119mph, as that's the max speed rating for the winter tyres.

heh. The Jeep has a digital external temp. display - if it's lower
than 2C I just stick it into permanent 4x4 and drive as per any other
day.

--
d.

"darsy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Ace said:

On 28 Jun 2007 10:25:25 GMT, "CT" <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

My car (like most I guess these days) displays the ambient
temperature
and when it's below 5 degrees, a little 'snow flake' symbol is also
shown so I know when to crawl along at 5mph.

Mine has one of these too, and generally I take it to mean I
shouldn't
exceed 119mph, as that's the max speed rating for the winter tyres.

heh. The Jeep has a digital external temp. display - if it's lower
than 2C I just stick it into permanent 4x4 and drive as per any other
day.

How long do your tyres last then?

darsy said:

Ace said:

On 28 Jun 2007 10:25:25 GMT, "CT" <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

My car (like most I guess these days) displays the ambient temperature
and when it's below 5 degrees, a little 'snow flake' symbol is also
shown so I know when to crawl along at 5mph.

Mine has one of these too, and generally I take it to mean I shouldn't
exceed 119mph, as that's the max speed rating for the winter tyres.

heh. The Jeep has a digital external temp. display - if it's lower
than 2C I just stick it into permanent 4x4 and drive as per any other
day.

Of course; I was referring to the Volvo which is full-time[1] 4x4
anyway.

[1] Well, on-demand really, since it's a semi-viscous coupling type of
arrangement, which puts 100% of the drive on the front except where
the rears are starting to turn more slowly (i.e. the fronts are
starting to spin). Allegedly it's a very basic 4x4 system, but it
seems to work just fine.

--
_______
..'_/_|_\_'. Ace (brucedotrogers a.t rochedotcom)
\`\ | /`/ DS#8
`\\ | //' BOTAFOT#3, SbS#2, UKRMMA#13, DFV#8, SKA#2, IBB#10
`\|/`
`

Ace said:

On Thu, 28 Jun 2007 03:58:13 -0700, darsy <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

heh. The Jeep has a digital external temp. display - if it's lower
than 2C I just stick it into permanent 4x4 and drive as per any other
day.

Of course; I was referring to the Volvo which is full-time[1] 4x4
anyway.

The Jeep has several drive modes, but only recommends 2wd or permanent
4wd for road use - part-time 4WD is for "loose surfaces only". I've no
idea why - Krusty probably does, mind.

That said, I normally leave the Jeep in 2wd, 'cos it's more
entertaining sliding the back end out in the wet.

--
d.

dkahn400 said:

On Jun 28, 10:45 am, TOG@toil,[email hidden],

Quoted message said:

On 28 Jun, 08:41, Tom Crispin <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Possibly nothing is wrong with his car, but the car driven by the man
who killed the four innocent cyclists had bald tyres.

Quoted message said:

No, they were *defective*. Not quite the same thing.

Exectly the same thing in this case. They were defective in the sense
that they had no tread on them. They were bald.

Yep. Apologies.

Simon Brooke said:

in message <[email hidden]>,
TOG@toil,[email hidden], ([email hidden]'😉

Quoted message said:

On 28 Jun, 08:41, Tom Crispin <[email hidden]>
wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Possibly nothing is wrong with his car, but the car driven by the man
who killed the four innocent cyclists had bald tyres.

Quoted message said:

No, they were *defective*. Not quite the same thing.

The police evidence was that they were bald. Do you know something the
police didn't?

See other posting....

Simon Brooke ([email hidden]) gurgled happily, sounding much like
they were saying :

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

This guy did not 'slide a car off to the edge'. He slid the car off
to the edge, across eight feet of grass verge, bounced off a wall,
back across the eight feet of verge again, right across the whole
width of the road, and ended on the other verge.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

So? There's nothing remotely strange about that if you hit a patch of
black ice at 50mph.

Quoted message said:

If there's ice about - if you have reasonable reason to believe there
is ice about, such as scraping ice off your windscreen for five
minutes - and you drive at 50mph, then that's criminal - dangerous
driving - in itself.

[censored].

You'd have everybody doing 10mph everywhere for three months of the year.

Simon Brooke ([email hidden]) gurgled happily, sounding much like
they were saying :

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I'll leave you to work out how long it would take me to get from
Swindon to Birmingham at 10mph - bearing in mind this was my daily
commute for three years.

Quoted message said:

You don't commute from Swindon to Birmingham on icy roads. To do so in
a reasonable commuting time would be criminal.

Oh, ffs...

Peter Clinch said:

Krusty said:

Ice on a windscreen doesn't equal ice on the road. If you don't know
that, you've obviously never owned a car.

Didn't say it does, just suggested it should set the alert status
from green to amber at least.

So what speed would you consider to be safe in 'amber' conditions? What
would make you revert from amber to green?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

but that few
miles completely removes any possibility at the accident site?

Obviously not.

Excatly.

<sigh> There is always the possibility of an accident anywhere.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

OK so you get up in the morning & have to scrape your windscreen.
You then start driving at 15mph on roads that are completely free
of ice. How far do you go before you decide it's safe to drive
faster - 1 mile, 10 miles, all the way? You drive at a speed you
judge to be safe based on the conditions. If those conditions
suddenly change without any warning, you may get away with it, you
may not. This guy didn't.

Who said anything about 15 mph? You just plucked it out of the air.

OK you pick a speed that's guaranteed not to result in a loss of
control should you suddenly hit a patch of black ice. 15mph is too fast
if anything.

Quoted message said:

Who said anything about 10 mph? You just plucked it out of the air.
Who said anything about 10 mph? You just plucked it out of the air.

Nice job of avoiding the question.

Quoted message said:

You also seem to have decided to do the commute on untreated
back-roads for no apparent reason. Why?

Who said they're untreated? The whole point is unexpected patches of
ice *do* happen on roads that are completely free of ice for many, many
miles either side of that patch. I'm not going to drive/ride at a speed
that's so slow it guarantees I'll maintain full control on a 10 yard
patch of ice, when the previous n miles has been totally ice free. I
very much doubt anyone else would either, including you.

--
Krusty
www.MuddyStuff.co.uk
Off-Road Classifieds

'02 MV Senna '03 Tigtona 955i '96 Tiger '79 Fantic Hiro 250

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

No one seems to have questioned the wisdom of a group of cyclists being
on the road in icy conditions.
Comments?

Yes. Motorcycle club run on a winters morning, early on and its sunny
and bright.
Car flies round a bend and kills two bikers, bounces off a wall and
comes to rest back on the road.
What would the motorcycling press have to say to
"No one seems to have questioned the wisdom of a group of motorcyclists
being on the road in icy conditions."

Sauce. Goose. Gander.

darsy said:

Ace said:

On Thu, 28 Jun 2007 03:58:13 -0700, darsy <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

heh. The Jeep has a digital external temp. display - if it's lower
than 2C I just stick it into permanent 4x4 and drive as per any other
day.

Of course; I was referring to the Volvo which is full-time[1] 4x4
anyway.

The Jeep has several drive modes, but only recommends 2wd or permanent
4wd for road use - part-time 4WD is for "loose surfaces only". I've no
idea why - Krusty probably does, mind.

So do I. It's because your 4wd system is much more mechanical than
mine, such that the front and rear wheels will want to move at the
same speed all the time, so going round corners will be much more of
an effort, as you're effectively skidding at least one of the rear
tyres round to follow the front. Tyre wear will be accordingly
increased.

Quoted message said:

That said, I normally leave the Jeep in 2wd, 'cos it's more
entertaining sliding the back end out in the wet.

Right on.

--
_______
..'_/_|_\_'. Ace (brucedotrogers a.t rochedotcom)
\`\ | /`/ DS#8
`\\ | //' BOTAFOT#3, SbS#2, UKRMMA#13, DFV#8, SKA#2, IBB#10
`\|/`
`

Simon Brooke said:

in message <[email hidden]>, Krusty

(') said:

Quoted message said:

This guy did not 'slide a car off to the edge'. He slid the car off
to the edge, across eight feet of grass verge, bounced off a wall,
back across the eight feet of verge again, right across the whole
width of the road, and ended on the other verge.

So? There's nothing remotely strange about that if you hit a patch
of black ice at 50mph.

If there's ice about - if you have reasonable reason to believe there
is ice about, such as scraping ice off your windscreen for five
minutes - and you drive at 50mph, then that's criminal - dangerous
driving - in itself.

What complete & utter rubbish.

--
Krusty
www.MuddyStuff.co.uk
Off-Road Classifieds

'02 MV Senna '03 Tigtona 955i '96 Tiger '79 Fantic Hiro 250

Ace said:

darsy said:

Ace said:

On Thu, 28 Jun 2007 03:58:13 -0700, darsy <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

> heh. The Jeep has a digital external temp. display - if it's lower
> than 2C I just stick it into permanent 4x4 and drive as per any
> other day.

Of course; I was referring to the Volvo which is full-time[1] 4x4
anyway.

The Jeep has several drive modes, but only recommends 2wd or
permanent 4wd for road use - part-time 4WD is for "loose surfaces
only". I've no idea why - Krusty probably does, mind.

So do I. It's because your 4wd system is much more mechanical than
mine, such that the front and rear wheels will want to move at the
same speed all the time, so going round corners will be much more of
an effort, as you're effectively skidding at least one of the rear
tyres round to follow the front. Tyre wear will be accordingly
increased.

Err, diffs?

--
platypus

"It was not yet obvious that the war
would bring misery to the whole world,
but it seemed probable that it would do
no one any good - except the contractors."

Ace said:

darsy said:

The Jeep has several drive modes, but only recommends 2wd or permanent
4wd for road use - part-time 4WD is for "loose surfaces only". I've no
idea why - Krusty probably does, mind.

So do I. It's because your 4wd system is much more mechanical than
mine, such that the front and rear wheels will want to move at the
same speed all the time, so going round corners will be much more of
an effort, as you're effectively skidding at least one of the rear
tyres round to follow the front. Tyre wear will be accordingly
increased.

That depends how many diffs it's got.

If it's got a central diff, the so-called "part-time" 4WD probably locks
it, whereas the permanent 4WD doesn't.

--
Eddie [email hidden]

http://www.last.fm/group/ukrm

Simon Brooke said:

in message <[email hidden]>, Krusty

(') said:

Peter Clinch said:

Krusty wrote:

> You really need to stop flogging that point - it's completely
> irrelevant to the road conditions at the accident site.

So it's cold enough for ice a few miles up the road,

Ice on a windscreen doesn't equal ice on the road. If you don't know
that, you've obviously never owned a car.

A little bit of air frost doesn't take five minutes to clean off a
windscreen. If you don't know that, you've never seen a car.

Did I say anything about 'a little bit of air frost'?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

OK so you get up in the morning & have to scrape your windscreen.
You then start driving at 15mph on roads that are completely free
of ice. How far do you go before you decide it's safe to drive
faster - 1 mile, 10 miles, all the way? You drive at a speed you
judge to be safe based on the conditions. If those conditions
suddenly change without any warning, you may get away with it, you
may not. This guy didn't.

So you don't drive at a speed at which you could kill people. If he'd
lost control at 20mph, there would be some bent bikes and possibly
some bruises.

So you'd drive at 20mph all day because you had to spend 5 minutes
scraping ice off in the morning, even though you'd seen no sign of ice
on the roads? Congratulations, you've just lost all credibility. Plus
of course squashing someone against a wall at 20mph would probably kill
them - giving them a glancing blow at 50mph probably wouldn't.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Or are you happy blasting along untreated roads on frosty days at
those sorts of speeds, knowing that the mere presence of freezing
temperatures is completely irrelevant to the chances of a slide on
the bit of road you're at now?

Oh FFS - 'blasting along at those sorts of speed'? If you genuinely
drive everywhere at 10mph whenever the temperature drops below
zero, I feel really sorry for all the people sat in the queue
behind you.

I'll leave you to work out how long it would take me to get from
Swindon to Birmingham at 10mph - bearing in mind this was my daily
commute for three years.

You don't commute from Swindon to Birmingham on icy roads. To do so
in a reasonable commuting time would be criminal.

No. I commuted from Swindon to Birmingham on treated roads that
occasionally had the odd patch of ice here & there. It boggles me that
you fail to understand that this is a regular scenario.

--
Krusty
www.MuddyStuff.co.uk
Off-Road Classifieds

'02 MV Senna '03 Tigtona 955i '96 Tiger '79 Fantic Hiro 250

darsy said:

Ace said:

On Thu, 28 Jun 2007 03:58:13 -0700, darsy <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

heh. The Jeep has a digital external temp. display - if it's
lower than 2C I just stick it into permanent 4x4 and drive as per
any other day.

Of course; I was referring to the Volvo which is full-time[1] 4x4
anyway.

The Jeep has several drive modes, but only recommends 2wd or permanent
4wd for road use - part-time 4WD is for "loose surfaces only". I've no
idea why - Krusty probably does, mind.

It locks the centre diff, so the wheels have to be able to turn at
different speeds or something goes bang.

Quoted message said:

That said, I normally leave the Jeep in 2wd, 'cos it's more
entertaining sliding the back end out in the wet.

AOL

--
Krusty
www.MuddyStuff.co.uk
Off-Road Classifieds

'02 MV Senna '03 Tigtona 955i '96 Tiger '79 Fantic Hiro 250

Krusty wrote on 28/06/2007 11:05 +0100:

Quoted message said:

Ice on a windscreen doesn't equal ice on the road. If you don't know
that, you've obviously never owned a car.

Is true but it should alert you to the possibility of ice on the road.
The more and harder the ice on the car the more likely there is ice on
the road.

--
Tony

"The most savage controversies are those about matters as to which there
is no good evidence either way."
- Bertrand Russell

CT said:

Krusty said:

Bad form, but as you're presumably a cyclist, I'm sure you'll be aware
of the sudden drops in air temperature you get on certain bits of
road. It's highly possible for the air temp to be a few degrees
above zero, but suddenly drop to below zero for a short stretch. I'm
sure you take this into account when you're driving, & crawl along at
walking pace whenever it's below 5 degrees, /just in case./

My car (like most I guess these days) displays the ambient temperature
and when it's below 5 degrees, a little 'snow flake' symbol is also
shown so I know when to crawl along at 5mph.

I use that symbol as an indication of when to apply the handbrake and
give it more gas for some drifting fun.
--
ZX-10R