Re: Is oily fish really healthy?

"Juhana Harju" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

vernon wrote:

: No study has EVER shown that fats (other than hydrogenated) changes
: cholesterol in a body. No study has ever shown that eating
: cholesterol can raise cholesterol.

That is simply not true. Look at the Harvard review by Hu FB, Manson JE
and
Willett WC. Types of dietary fat and risk of coronary heart disease: a
critical review. J Am Coll Nutr. 2001 Feb;20(1):5-19.

NOT a study, just hype.

Juhana Harju said:

vernon wrote:

: No study has EVER shown that fats (other than hydrogenated) changes
: cholesterol in a body. No study has ever shown that eating
: cholesterol can raise cholesterol.

That is simply not true. Look at the Harvard review by Hu FB, Manson JE and
Willett WC. Types of dietary fat and risk of coronary heart disease: a
critical review. J Am Coll Nutr. 2001 Feb;20(1):5-19.

http://www.jacn.org/cgi/content/full/20/1/5

http://www.jacn.org/cgi/content/full/20/1/5/F2

--
Juhana

But he's right that it doesn't matter. Serum cholesterol means nothing
if there are no lesions in the coronary arteries for it to attach to.
That's a function of collagen production, which points to the need for
higher intake of vitamin C. Lots of people have high cholesterol
without heart disease. Lots of people have normal cholesterol and
never make it to 50.

PeterB

vernon wrote:
: "Juhana Harju" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
: news:[email hidden]...
:: vernon wrote:
::
::: No study has EVER shown that fats (other than hydrogenated) changes
::: cholesterol in a body. No study has ever shown that eating
::: cholesterol can raise cholesterol.
::
:: That is simply not true. Look at the Harvard review by Hu FB, Manson
:: JE and
:: Willett WC. Types of dietary fat and risk of coronary heart disease:
:: a critical review. J Am Coll Nutr. 2001 Feb;20(1):5-19.
:
: NOT a study, just hype.

Incredible ignorance.

--
Juhana

PeterB wrote:
: Juhana Harju wrote:
:: vernon wrote:
::
::: No study has EVER shown that fats (other than hydrogenated) changes
::: cholesterol in a body. No study has ever shown that eating
::: cholesterol can raise cholesterol.
::
:: That is simply not true. Look at the Harvard review by Hu FB, Manson
:: JE and Willett WC. Types of dietary fat and risk of coronary heart
:: disease: a critical review. J Am Coll Nutr. 2001 Feb;20(1):5-19.
::
:: http://www.jacn.org/cgi/content/full/20/1/5
::
:: http://www.jacn.org/cgi/content/full/20/1/5/F2
:
: But he's right that it doesn't matter.

He did not say that. It was a question wheather dietary fats have an effect
on serum cholesterol. And they do.

: Serum cholesterol means
: nothing if there are no lesions in the coronary arteries for it to
: attach to. That's a function of collagen production, which points to
: the need for higher intake of vitamin C. Lots of people have high
: cholesterol without heart disease. Lots of people have normal
: cholesterol and never make it to 50.

There are multiple mechanisms and risk factors involved in atheroschlerosis.
Cholesterol is not the only one, but still it is one risk factor, among many
others.

--
Juhana

PeterB wrote:
:

Quoted message said:

But he's right that it doesn't matter. Serum cholesterol means nothing
if there are no lesions in the coronary arteries for it to attach to.
That's a function of collagen production, which points to the need for
higher intake of vitamin C. Lots of people have high cholesterol
without heart disease. Lots of people have normal cholesterol and
never make it to 50.

How much vitamin C is needed in the diet to keep lesions from forming?

--
Ron

"Juhana Harju" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

vernon wrote:
: "Juhana Harju" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
: news:[email hidden]...
:: vernon wrote:
::
::: No study has EVER shown that fats (other than hydrogenated) changes
::: cholesterol in a body. No study has ever shown that eating
::: cholesterol can raise cholesterol.
::
:: That is simply not true. Look at the Harvard review by Hu FB, Manson
:: JE and
:: Willett WC. Types of dietary fat and risk of coronary heart disease:
:: a critical review. J Am Coll Nutr. 2001 Feb;20(1):5-19.
:
: NOT a study, just hype.

Incredible ignorance.

--
Juhana

They didn't take (use) people who had ALL other dietary input identical.

Phony study.

People who have high fat intake are (typically) subject to higher
cholesterol. Of these, they (typically) have more heart disease. What is
CONVENIENTLY left out is the other bad dietary habits. People who consume
high amounts of fat almost always have an unusually high intake of sugar
and low fiber.

BTW
Cholesterol is a symptom, not a cause. As a matter of FACT high good
cholesterol is counter to heart problems, hence the MASSIVE drive by pharms
to come out with something to "raise" the good. Of course you knew that.

"PeterB" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Juhana Harju said:

vernon wrote:

: No study has EVER shown that fats (other than hydrogenated) changes
: cholesterol in a body. No study has ever shown that eating
: cholesterol can raise cholesterol.

That is simply not true. Look at the Harvard review by Hu FB, Manson JE
and
Willett WC. Types of dietary fat and risk of coronary heart disease: a
critical review. J Am Coll Nutr. 2001 Feb;20(1):5-19.

http://www.jacn.org/cgi/content/full/20/1/5

http://www.jacn.org/cgi/content/full/20/1/5/F2

--
Juhana

But he's right that it doesn't matter. Serum cholesterol means nothing
if there are no lesions in the coronary arteries for it to attach to.
That's a function of collagen production, which points to the need for
higher intake of vitamin C. Lots of people have high cholesterol
without heart disease. Lots of people have normal cholesterol and
never make it to 50.

PeterB

Lesions or irritations (one step below lesion)
Homosysteins can "irritate". The body produces cholesterol as a defense,
not a blocker.
I'm not a 100% about how C works but it is a defensive catalyst and is not
counter to positive. I never cease to be amazed at new findings. I know
also that they have proved that C softens the walls of veins and arteries (a
good thing)

Oh, yes, we mustn't forget that cholesterol is absolutely necessary for
proper brain function and helps prevent aneurism. I have seen evidence of
the first one here.

"Juhana Harju" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

PeterB wrote:
: Juhana Harju wrote:
:: vernon wrote:
::
::: No study has EVER shown that fats (other than hydrogenated) changes
::: cholesterol in a body. No study has ever shown that eating
::: cholesterol can raise cholesterol.
::
:: That is simply not true. Look at the Harvard review by Hu FB, Manson
:: JE and Willett WC. Types of dietary fat and risk of coronary heart
:: disease: a critical review. J Am Coll Nutr. 2001 Feb;20(1):5-19.
::
:: http://www.jacn.org/cgi/content/full/20/1/5
::
:: http://www.jacn.org/cgi/content/full/20/1/5/F2
:
: But he's right that it doesn't matter.

He did not say that. It was a question wheather dietary fats have an
effect
on serum cholesterol. And they do.

: Serum cholesterol means
: nothing if there are no lesions in the coronary arteries for it to
: attach to. That's a function of collagen production, which points to
: the need for higher intake of vitamin C. Lots of people have high
: cholesterol without heart disease. Lots of people have normal
: cholesterol and never make it to 50.

There are multiple mechanisms and risk factors involved in
atheroschlerosis.
Cholesterol is not the only one, but still it is one risk factor, among
many
others.

--
Juhana

You need to learn to read studies for the complete message.

Fri, 24 Mar 2006 11:48:12 -0700 in article
<[email hidden]> "vernon"

Quoted message said:

Oh, yes, we mustn't forget that cholesterol is absolutely necessary for
proper brain function and helps prevent aneurism. I have seen evidence of
the first one here.

Cholesterol cannot pass blood-brain barrier, brain makes its own
cholesterol, see for example

Bjorkhem I, Meaney S.
Brain cholesterol: long secret life behind a barrier.
Arterioscler Thromb Vasc Biol. 2004 May;24(5):806-15. Epub 2004 Feb 5.
Review.
PMID: 14764421 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
<http://atvb.ahajournals.org/cgi/content/full/24/5/806>

--
Matti Narkia

"Juhana Harju" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

vernon wrote:
: "Juhana Harju" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
: news:[email hidden]...
:: vernon wrote:
::
::: No study has EVER shown that fats (other than hydrogenated) changes
::: cholesterol in a body. No study has ever shown that eating
::: cholesterol can raise cholesterol.
::
:: That is simply not true. Look at the Harvard review by Hu FB, Manson
:: JE and
:: Willett WC. Types of dietary fat and risk of coronary heart disease:
:: a critical review. J Am Coll Nutr. 2001 Feb;20(1):5-19.
:
: NOT a study, just hype.

Incredible ignorance.

--
Juhana

Plus ARROGANCE.

"Ron Peterson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

PeterB wrote:
:

Quoted message said:

But he's right that it doesn't matter. Serum cholesterol means nothing
if there are no lesions in the coronary arteries for it to attach to.
That's a function of collagen production, which points to the need for
higher intake of vitamin C. Lots of people have high cholesterol
without heart disease. Lots of people have normal cholesterol and
never make it to 50.

How much vitamin C is needed in the diet to keep lesions from forming?

--
Ron

Dunno, Ron, how much?

24 Mar 2006 09:42:46 -0800 in article
<[email hidden]> "Ron Peterson"

Quoted message said:

PeterB wrote:
:

Quoted message said:

But he's right that it doesn't matter. Serum cholesterol means nothing
if there are no lesions in the coronary arteries for it to attach to.
That's a function of collagen production, which points to the need for
higher intake of vitamin C. Lots of people have high cholesterol
without heart disease. Lots of people have normal cholesterol and
never make it to 50.

How much vitamin C is needed in the diet to keep lesions from forming?

Wrong question. Why do you think that just taking vitamin C would keep
lesions from forming?

--
Matti Narkia

"Matti Narkia" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Fri, 24 Mar 2006 11:48:12 -0700 in article
<[email hidden]> "vernon"

Quoted message said:

Oh, yes, we mustn't forget that cholesterol is absolutely necessary for
proper brain function and helps prevent aneurism. I have seen evidence of
the first one here.

Cholesterol cannot pass blood-brain barrier, brain makes its own
cholesterol, see for example

Bjorkhem I, Meaney S.
Brain cholesterol: long secret life behind a barrier.
Arterioscler Thromb Vasc Biol. 2004 May;24(5):806-15. Epub 2004 Feb 5.
Review.
PMID: 14764421 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
<http://atvb.ahajournals.org/cgi/content/full/24/5/806>

--
Matti Narkia

You have no idea what you posted.

Fri, 24 Mar 2006 16:22:51 -0700 in article
<[email hidden]> "vernon"

Quoted message said:

"Matti Narkia" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Fri, 24 Mar 2006 11:48:12 -0700 in article
<[email hidden]> "vernon"

Quoted message said:

Oh, yes, we mustn't forget that cholesterol is absolutely necessary for
proper brain function and helps prevent aneurism. I have seen evidence of
the first one here.

Cholesterol cannot pass blood-brain barrier, brain makes its own
cholesterol, see for example

Bjorkhem I, Meaney S.
Brain cholesterol: long secret life behind a barrier.
Arterioscler Thromb Vasc Biol. 2004 May;24(5):806-15. Epub 2004 Feb 5.
Review.
PMID: 14764421 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
<http://atvb.ahajournals.org/cgi/content/full/24/5/806>

You have no idea what you posted.

You have absolutely no idea what you write about ;-).

--
Matti Narkia

Juhana Harju said:

vernon wrote:
: "Juhana Harju" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
: news:[email hidden]...
:: vernon wrote:
::
::: No study has EVER shown that fats (other than hydrogenated) changes
::: cholesterol in a body. No study has ever shown that eating
::: cholesterol can raise cholesterol.
::
:: That is simply not true. Look at the Harvard review by Hu FB, Manson
:: JE and
:: Willett WC. Types of dietary fat and risk of coronary heart disease:
:: a critical review. J Am Coll Nutr. 2001 Feb;20(1):5-19.
:
: NOT a study, just hype.

Incredible ignorance.

Oh, I see you've met Vernon.
--
Peter Bowditch aa #2243
The Millenium Project http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles
Australian Council Against Health Fraud http://www.acahf.org.au
Australian Skeptics http://www.skeptics.com.au
To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com

"Peter lying Bowditch" blathered

Quoted message said:

Juhana Harju said:

vernon wrote:
: "Juhana Harju" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
: news:[email hidden]...
:: vernon wrote:
::
::: No study has EVER shown that fats (other than hydrogenated) changes
::: cholesterol in a body. No study has ever shown that eating
::: cholesterol can raise cholesterol.
::
:: That is simply not true. Look at the Harvard review by Hu FB, Manson
:: JE and
:: Willett WC. Types of dietary fat and risk of coronary heart disease:
:: a critical review. J Am Coll Nutr. 2001 Feb;20(1):5-19.
:
: NOT a study, just hype.

Incredible ignorance.

Oh, I see you've met Vernon.

Lay off the sauce.

Quoted message said:

--
Peter Bowditch

Ron Peterson said:

PeterB wrote:
:

Quoted message said:

But he's right that it doesn't matter. Serum cholesterol means nothing
if there are no lesions in the coronary arteries for it to attach to.
That's a function of collagen production, which points to the need for
higher intake of vitamin C. Lots of people have high cholesterol
without heart disease. Lots of people have normal cholesterol and
never make it to 50.

How much vitamin C is needed in the diet to keep lesions from forming?

Nutrition studies show that 5 servings of fruit and vegetables per day
reduce heart disease risk substantially. That translates into roughly
500mg vitamin C daily depending on your reference foods. It's possible
that humans have genetically adapted to hypoascorbemia (loss of the
enzyme L-gulonolactone oxidase) and that we no longer require vitamin C
in amounts equivalent to animal synthesis relative to body weight. On
the other hand, it's likely our ancestors consumed much greater volumes
of vitamin C-ridch foods, even after the loss of the ability to
synthesize ascorbic acid. Based on the animal model, we should
supplement 5g to 12g per day, at least for optimal health. But since
the main role of ascorbic acid is probably collagen building (ie.,
other processes [however important] might be secondary in favor of
collagen manufacture and arterial health), I think 500mg-1g vitamin C
daily should be enough. Vitamin C is just one nutrient, of course, so
a supplement routine should include all the major and micro nutrients,
as well as omega 3 TFAs.

PeterB

Ron Peterson said:

PeterB wrote:
:

Quoted message said:

But he's right that it doesn't matter. Serum cholesterol means nothing
if there are no lesions in the coronary arteries for it to attach to.
That's a function of collagen production, which points to the need for
higher intake of vitamin C. Lots of people have high cholesterol
without heart disease. Lots of people have normal cholesterol and
never make it to 50.

How much vitamin C is needed in the diet to keep lesions from forming?

Nutrition studies show that 5 servings of fruit and vegetables per day
reduce heart disease risk substantially. That translates into roughly
500mg vitamin C daily depending on your reference foods. It's possible
that humans have genetically adapted to hypoascorbemia (loss of the
enzyme L-gulonolactone oxidase) and that we no longer require vitamin C
in amounts equivalent to animal synthesis relative to body weight. On
the other hand, it's likely our ancestors consumed much greater volumes
of vitamin C-ridch foods, even after the loss of the ability to
synthesize ascorbic acid. Based on the animal model, we should
supplement 5g to 12g per day, at least for optimal health. But since
the main role of ascorbic acid is probably collagen building (ie.,
other processes [however important] might be secondary in favor of
collagen manufacture and arterial health), I think 500mg-1g vitamin C
daily should be enough. Vitamin C is just one nutrient, of course, so
a supplement routine should include all the major and micro nutrients,
as well as omega 3 TFAs.

PeterB