Re: Jan's hatred for Jews

In article <[email hidden]>, DEBBEE1023 says...

Quoted message said:

<< Oh, I'm still getting a feel for your intelligence, Rod. But I find that
when
dealing with bigots the unsubtle approach tends to work best. >>

Gosh, I just bet you *loved* Archie Bunker......how many seasons was that show
on t.v. and how popular is it still today?

Actually, I was a little young to watch 'All in the Family' when it first came
on. Just remember, Debbee, that the point of "Archie Bunker" was not the
glorification of bigotry. On the contrary, Norman Lear's Bunker was supposed to
be a portrait of the ignorant bigot.

Quoted message said:

<< Bigotry? Against Nazis? I abhor Nazis. Don't you? >>

And you also abhor alternative medicine

Do I "abhor" alternative medicine? No, I do not. I don't think that it is on
the same par as the science behind mainstream medicine, but I think that
alternative therapies have their place. As Shakespeare said, "There are more
things on heaven and earth than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

I don't like charlatans, though, or quackery, or chicanery. I don't like people
who offer nonsense in the place of real science and take advantage of the
ignorant for money. People who offer miracle cures for cancer or AIDS, for
instance.

No, just as many scientifically researched and tested medicines are derived from
basic herbs and other plants, so too can those basic materials have an impact on
health.

Quoted message said:

and those that speak out in favor of it...

I don't speak out against those that favor alternative medicines, per se. It
happens that a number of those who advocate for them in this forum have offered
anti-semitic rhetoric and holocaust denials. I have a duty to speak out against
that.

Quoted message said:

so this tells us *what* about you, and the rest of your people?

That I don't brook anti-semites.

Quoted message said:

<< You didn't ask me about Christians. You asked me about Arabs and Muslims.
I
gave you an answer about Arabs and Muslims, and capped it off by saying that I
am intolerant of those driven by hatred. >>

So, if this statement is true for you, then you should be also intolerant of
those people driven by hatred of alternative medicine....is this not correct?

I'm sorry - are you equating alternative medicine with a religion? Are you
equating real concern for chicanery with a hatred?

Quoted message said:

You should also be intolerant of greedy corporations that experiment with
drugs, chemicals, breast implants, and the like, that are only in business for
the profit of it all, and care less who they make sick, or those that have to
die to prove the stuff is not healthy for everyone.

Well, there are any one of a number of ways to respond to this. Let me see:

1) I am neck-deep in the struggle between small companies and large
corporations, and philosophically have an affinity for the small guys;

2) I could give you a basic lesson in free-market economics, and discuss the
fact that profit-motive and a desire to offer a safe and healthy product go
hand-in-hand, but I fear that lesson would be lost on you;

3) I could also say that at least as far as refined drugs go, at least there
_ARE_ test trials for them, that people voluntarily undertake them, and that
goods go to market generally only after a thorough investigation of the claims
made regarding the ability of the medicine to do what the offeror says it will
do.

Can the same be said about alternative medical products? How about death rates
from the taking of alternative medicines, or the use of alternative medical
procedures? Can you sit there, Debbee, and say that fewer people have lost with
regards to these things and alternative medicine?

Quoted message said:

<< I find it very interesting that you use the term "Brands". Do you use the
same
term when you are talking about different practices of Christianity? >>

There are lots of "brands" of Christian churches. A lot of people reference
the "brands"...when they go church shopping....wake up and smell the roses, and
get in the right century for goodness sakes.

I see, so if I started referring to your church as a "brand", instead of, say, a
faith or philosophy, you wouldn't be offended by that?

Quoted message said:

<< No, it doesn't. Calling people racial, ethnic, or religious epithets is
wrong,
no matter where you come from. >>

It may be *wrong* for you, but your statement doesn't make it *wrong* for
everyone. This is only YOUR OPINION of how it should be.

So you're saying that bigotry is alright for some people? Tell me, who are
these people? Why are they allowed to be bigoted?

- Andrew Langer

Any posts by Andrew Langer are his own, written by him, for his own
enjoyment (and the education of others). Unless expressly stated,
they represent his own views, and not those of any other individuals
or entities. He is not, nor has he ever been, paid to post here.

<< I don't speak out against those that favor alternative medicines, per se.
It
happens that a number of those who advocate for them in this forum have offered
anti-semitic rhetoric and holocaust denials. I have a duty to speak out
against
that. >>
Who cares Andrew? You act like it has only been the Jewish who have had their
people slaughtered, their land stolen, etc? Good grief..the Bible teaches us
forgiveness....what *exactly* is your problem with forgiveness? Is this
something that you and your people cannot fathom, and get on the rest of the
life without playing victim? Grow up, get over yourself.
I'm not buying the story that some of the folk try to dish out around these
parts as being part of God's chosen few......those people have yet to realize
that they are not superior to anyone.....and methinks they fear the people
knowing the truth about them.....

<< I see, so if I started referring to your church as a "brand", instead of,
say, a
faith or philosophy, you wouldn't be offended by that? >>
It wouldn't bother me in the least....it doesn't bother most people in the
first place....only those that have major hangups....have problems with using
the word *brand*.

<< So you're saying that bigotry is alright for some people? Tell me, who are
these people? Why are they allowed to be bigoted? >>
It is their choice...not your yours, or the rest of your buddies....and it is
the right of people to be prejudiced against those individuals that they
dislike. Most of the "butt buddies" here fail to *get it*....no one is
collectively looking at a certain religion or heritage and saying all of those
people that are of that particular group are that way, there are just some (and
there seem to be quite a number in this group), that feel that everyone is
pointing to their group in their entirety. You're missing the point....it is
okay to dislike.....and it is okay to publicly state you dislike someone
without being a bigot...
The point is....I dislike a number of the people that post in here that just
happen to be from a certain background....but I don't dislike all of the people
in that particular background, just those individuals who believe they are
better than anyone else...and feel they are 'victims'.....
Do you get it now, or would you like someone here to draw you a picture so
that you and your buddies "get it"...

"If you're gonna walk on thin ice, you may as well dance." (Jessie Winchester).

"DEBBEE1023" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

<< Oh, I'm still getting a feel for your intelligence, Rod. But I find

that

Quoted message said:

when
dealing with bigots the unsubtle approach tends to work best. >>

Gosh, I just bet you *loved* Archie Bunker......how many seasons was that

show

Quoted message said:

on t.v. and how popular is it still today?

Once again, Debbee proves that she is the mistress of the non sequitur.

Quoted message said:

<< Bigotry? Against Nazis? I abhor Nazis. Don't you? >>

And you also abhor alternative medicine, and those that speak out in favor

of

Quoted message said:

it...so this tells us *what* about you, and the rest of your people?

And again she does it...since Andy did not mention AltMed....she must love
eating red herring.

Quoted message said:

<< You didn't ask me about Christians. You asked me about Arabs and

Muslims.

Quoted message said:

I
gave you an answer about Arabs and Muslims, and capped it off by saying

that I

Quoted message said:

am intolerant of those driven by hatred. >>

So, if this statement is true for you, then you should be also intolerant

of

Quoted message said:

those people driven by hatred of alternative medicine....is this not

correct?

Note the unclever diversion, since Debbee knows that she is a bigot and
connot win on any argument discussing her bigotry.

Quoted message said:

You should also be intolerant of greedy corporations that experiment with
drugs, chemicals, breast implants, and the like, that are only in

business for

Quoted message said:

the profit of it all, and care less who they make sick, or those that have

to

Quoted message said:

die to prove the stuff is not healthy for everyone.

Here Debbee is telling someone what they should be intolerant of, as if this
was a logical sequitur from Andy's originbal statement, which it is not.

Quoted message said:

<< I find it very interesting that you use the term "Brands". Do you use

the

Quoted message said:

same
term when you are talking about different practices of Christianity? >>

There are lots of "brands" of Christian churches. A lot of people

reference

Quoted message said:

the "brands"...when they go church shopping....wake up and smell the

roses, and

Quoted message said:

get in the right century for goodness sakes.

Like you? The Dark Ages?

Quoted message said:

<< No, it doesn't. Calling people racial, ethnic, or religious epithets

is

Quoted message said:

wrong,
no matter where you come from. >>

It may be *wrong* for you, but your statement doesn't make it *wrong* for
everyone. This is only YOUR OPINION of how it should be.

And, it is a damn good opinion. Sad that you would not sign on.

"DEBBEE1023" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

<< I don't speak out against those that favor alternative medicines, per

se.

Quoted message said:

It
happens that a number of those who advocate for them in this forum have

offered

Quoted message said:

anti-semitic rhetoric and holocaust denials. I have a duty to speak out
against
that. >>
Who cares Andrew? You act like it has only been the Jewish who have had

their

Quoted message said:

people slaughtered, their land stolen, etc? Good grief..the Bible teaches

us

Quoted message said:

forgiveness....what *exactly* is your problem with forgiveness?

Foregiveness is one thing...but not learning from history is genosuicide.

Modern (since 1850) anti-Judaism has been based on the teaching that Jews
killed Jesus. Where was the foregiveness from those Good Christians who
helped perpetrate the Holocaust. They murdered Jews, and others from Monday
to Saturday, and on Sunday they went to their Christian churches and prayed.

Is this

Quoted message said:

something that you and your people cannot fathom, and get on the rest of

the

Quoted message said:

life without playing victim? Grow up, get over yourself.
I'm not buying the story that some of the folk try to dish out around

these

Quoted message said:

parts as being part of God's chosen few

That is horseshit. No one has claimed that Jews are G-d's chosen few.
However, as I have mentioned before, Jews have been chosen...for Crusades,
Pogroms, Inquistitions and a Holocaust. As Tevye said, "Why don't you choose
someone else!"

.......those people have yet to realize

Quoted message said:

that they are not superior to anyone.....and methinks they fear the people
knowing the truth about them.....

You are, again, demonstrating your bigotry. Jews do not think that they are
superior to anyone. It is YOUR inferiority complex which makes you think
that they do.

Quoted message said:

<< I see, so if I started referring to your church as a "brand", instead

of,

Quoted message said:

say, a
faith or philosophy, you wouldn't be offended by that? >>
It wouldn't bother me in the least....it doesn't bother most people in the
first place....only those that have major hangups....have problems with

using

Quoted message said:

the word *brand*.

Debbee likes to speak for most people.

Quoted message said:

<< So you're saying that bigotry is alright for some people? Tell me, who

are

Quoted message said:

these people? Why are they allowed to be bigoted? >>
It is their choice...not your yours, or the rest of your buddies....and

it is

Quoted message said:

the right of people to be prejudiced against those individuals that they
dislike. Most of the "butt buddies" here fail to *get it*....no one is
collectively looking at a certain religion or heritage and saying all of

those

Quoted message said:

people that are of that particular group are that way, there are just some

(and

Quoted message said:

there seem to be quite a number in this group), that feel that everyone

is

Quoted message said:

pointing to their group in their entirety. You're missing the point....it

is

Quoted message said:

okay to dislike.....and it is okay to publicly state you dislike someone
without being a bigot...

However, when you tie that dislike to their religion, you are demonstrating
bigotry.

Quoted message said:

The point is....I dislike a number of the people that post in here that

just

Quoted message said:

happen to be from a certain background....but I don't dislike all of the

people

Quoted message said:

in that particular background, just those individuals who believe they are
better than anyone else...and feel they are 'victims'.....

When you identify a person by their background, and their background is
irrelevant to the alleged reasons you dislike them, you are a bigot.

Quoted message said:

Do you get it now, or would you like someone here to draw you a picture so
that you and your buddies "get it"...

We "get it" alright. You are a bigot, but do not see it. neither did Archie
Bunker.

In article <[email hidden]>, DEBBEE1023 says...

Quoted message said:

<< I don't speak out against those that favor alternative medicines, per se.
It
happens that a number of those who advocate for them in this forum have offered
anti-semitic rhetoric and holocaust denials. I have a duty to speak out
against
that. >>
Who cares Andrew?

Well, I don't expect you to, Debbee, as you're one of the anti-semites.

Quoted message said:

You act like it has only been the Jewish who have had their
people slaughtered, their land stolen, etc?

And I fight for the justice of other oppressed peoples, too. It just so
happens, however, that nobody has started levying pro-Khmer Rouge propaganda in
MHA, or started spouting off defending the practice of slavery in America.

Quoted message said:

Good grief..the Bible teaches us
forgiveness....what *exactly* is your problem with forgiveness?

Debbee, the Bible teaches us to forgive those who repent.

If the anti-semites within MHA are going to be unrepentant about their words and
deeds, then I have no reason to forgive.

Quoted message said:

Is this
something that you and your people cannot fathom, and get on the rest of the
life without playing victim? Grow up, get over yourself.

Debbee, you apparently claim to be a Native American. Ever heard of the Cobell
case? This is the case in which a number of Native Americans are seeking their
just compensation for royalties mismanaged by the federal government over the
course of the last century.

Should your people simply get on with the rest of their lives and not seek to
regain that which was taken from them?

Or, more to the point, if someone came on this board spewing anti-native
American epithets, calling them savages and claiming that their efforts to
regain their compensation amounted to hiding behing their "indian brand" would
you not be offended? Would you just shrug it off?

I doubt it highly.

Quoted message said:

I'm not buying the story that some of the folk try to dish out around these
parts as being part of God's chosen few......those people have yet to realize
that they are not superior to anyone.....and methinks they fear the people
knowing the truth about them.....

Which is what, exactly? But, my, oh my, what a fascinating statement that is.

Quoted message said:

<< I see, so if I started referring to your church as a "brand", instead of,
say, a
faith or philosophy, you wouldn't be offended by that? >>
It wouldn't bother me in the least.

See above.

Quoted message said:

...it doesn't bother most people in the
first place....only those that have major hangups....have problems with using
the word *brand*.

So those people who called Native Americans "savage heathens", that doesn't
bother you at all?

Quoted message said:

<< So you're saying that bigotry is alright for some people? Tell me, who are
these people? Why are they allowed to be bigoted? >>

Quoted message said:

It is their choice...not your yours, or the rest of your buddies....and it is
the right of people to be prejudiced against those individuals that they
dislike.

Ah, you get no argument from me that it is their _RIGHT_ to be prejudiced. It
is also their _RIGHT_ to dislike some _INDIVIDUAL_.

But that doesn't make BIGOTRY _RIGHT_, especially against a particular _GROUP_
of people.

Quoted message said:

Most of the "butt buddies" here fail to *get it*....no one is
collectively looking at a certain religion or heritage and saying all of those
people that are of that particular group are that way, there are just some (and
there seem to be quite a number in this group), that feel that everyone is
pointing to their group in their entirety. You're missing the point....it is
okay to dislike.....and it is okay to publicly state you dislike someone
without being a bigot...

Um, Debbee - you yourself have talked about the Jews as a group. So have Rod
and Jan and Gymmy Bob.

(snip of the rest)

- Andrew Langer

Any posts by Andrew Langer are his own, written by him, for his own
enjoyment (and the education of others). Unless expressly stated,
they represent his own views, and not those of any other individuals
or entities. He is not, nor has he ever been, paid to post here.

In article <[email hidden]>,

(DEBBEE1023) said:

<< Bigotry? Against Nazis? I abhor Nazis. Don't you? >>

And you also abhor alternative medicine, and those that speak out in favor of
it...so this tells us *what* about you, and the rest of your people?

What does Mark's opinion regarding "alternative medicine" have to do
with the opinion of the rest of "his people"? You're not implying that
Jews detest alternative medicine, are you?

Quoted message said:

<< You didn't ask me about Christians. You asked me about Arabs and Muslims.
I
gave you an answer about Arabs and Muslims, and capped it off by saying that
I
am intolerant of those driven by hatred. >>

So, if this statement is true for you, then you should be also intolerant of
those people driven by hatred of alternative medicine....is this not correct?

Logical fallacy used: Non sequitir.

http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/logic.html#nonseq
http://datanation.com/fallacies/nonseq.htm

Quoted message said:

You should also be intolerant of greedy corporations that experiment with
drugs, chemicals, breast implants, and the like, that are only in business
for
the profit of it all, and care less who they make sick, or those that have to
die to prove the stuff is not healthy for everyone.

Logical fallacy used: Non sequitir.

http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/logic.html#nonseq
http://datanation.com/fallacies/nonseq.htm

[Snip]

Quoted message said:

<< No, it doesn't. Calling people racial, ethnic, or religious epithets is
wrong,
no matter where you come from. >>

It may be *wrong* for you, but your statement doesn't make it *wrong* for
everyone. This is only YOUR OPINION of how it should be.

So, let me get this straight: Are you saying that it is not wrong to
call people racial, ethnic, or religious epithets? That certainly seems
to be what you are implying.

--
Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."
|
|"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you
| inconvenience me with questions?"