Re: roast beef in the crockpot?

Carol In WI said:

I do mine in a crockpot, with potatoes, carrots, bay leaf, onion soup mix
and au jus, I leave at 5 in the a.m., start it than, on slow all day,
sometimes I kick it onto high for the last hour. Always comes out sooooo
tender. Carol In WI

I use onion soup mix and a can of cream of mushroom soup. I don't
put in veggies because there is enough to freeze for sandwiches later.
The left over soup is delicious with a little onion and cornbread and
your favorite beans.

..

I usually do it in the crockpot with onion soup mix, beef boullion, onions
and water. It always turns out great...but a friend of mine said to do the
Top sirloin roast in the oven on low. Well..i was dissappointed..maybe i
over cooked it..Maybe next time i will try it medium rare like i do my prime
rib.
"Kilowatt" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Carol In WI said:

I do mine in a crockpot, with potatoes, carrots, bay leaf, onion soup mix
and au jus, I leave at 5 in the a.m., start it than, on slow all day,
sometimes I kick it onto high for the last hour. Always comes out sooooo
tender. Carol In WI

I use onion soup mix and a can of cream of mushroom soup. I don't
put in veggies because there is enough to freeze for sandwiches later.
The left over soup is delicious with a little onion and cornbread and
your favorite beans.

.

Dog3 at uhoh@ajfl;ajklsd;ajlds.nutz wrote on 3/23/05 3:04 PM:

Quoted message said:

"Carol In WI" <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

I do mine in a crockpot, with potatoes, carrots, bay leaf, onion soup
mix and au jus, I leave at 5 in the a.m., start it than, on slow all
day, sometimes I kick it onto high for the last hour. Always comes
out sooooo tender. Carol In WI

This I've not done. I've done beans and hocks. Pot roast is always in the
oven. It's just me

Michael

Crockpots were MADE to make pot roast!!!!
The secret is to make sure you brown the meat first, just like you would for
oven or stove top simmering.

I make the most awesome pot roast from a top-blade roast in my crock pot!

Michael said:

I like it in the oven. I've never had good luck with pot roast in the
crock pot. It never turns out right. I really don't us the crock pot much
anyway. It's not my fave cooking tool. I make soup and ham/beans in it and
that's about it. The thing is huge and makes a ton of soup.

My main crockpot uses are:

1. Chili, especially on Super Bowl Sunday
2. Slow-cooking pork roasts or ribs
3. Chicken stew

Quoted message said:

BTW, what does everyone use for cheese soup? I've tried several including
a bleu. I like cheddar the best but somewhere, out there is something
better. I'm just not sure.

Cheddar is classic and difficult to beat, but for cheese soup all by itself,
I like cheeses with a more pronounced nutty flavor. Tête de Moine is my
favorite, with Fontina d'Aosta and Gruyère close behind.

If I'm going to be serving the soup with something else, I try to match the
cheese with whatever's accompanying it.

Bob

Dog3 <uhoh@ajfl;ajklsd;ajlds.nutz> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Sheryl Rosen <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Dog3 at uhoh@ajfl;ajklsd;ajlds.nutz wrote on 3/23/05 3:04 PM:

Quoted message said:

"Carol In WI" <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

> I do mine in a crockpot, with potatoes, carrots, bay leaf, onion
> soup mix and au jus, I leave at 5 in the a.m., start it than, on
> slow all day, sometimes I kick it onto high for the last hour.
> Always comes out sooooo tender. Carol In WI
>
>
>

This I've not done. I've done beans and hocks. Pot roast is
always in the oven. It's just me

Michael

Crockpots were MADE to make pot roast!!!!
The secret is to make sure you brown the meat first, just like you
would for oven or stove top simmering.

I make the most awesome pot roast from a top-blade roast in my
crock pot!

I like it in the oven. I've never had good luck with pot roast in
the crock pot. It never turns out right. I really don't us the crock
pot much anyway. It's not my fave cooking tool. I make soup and
ham/beans in it and that's about it. The thing is huge and makes a
ton of soup. I'm sure a roast would go in well. Maybe I'll give it a
try some day. I make awesome cheese soup in it. The broth simmers
and I slowly add the milk and cheese at different intervals. Oh, and
a can of beer for kicks. BTW, what does everyone use for cheese
soup? I've tried several including a bleu. I like cheddar the best
but somewhere, out there is something better. I'm just not sure. I
love cheese soup and mushroom soup. I've got a handle on the
mushroom soup. I'm just not sure about the cheese soup 😉

Michael

Sometimes I don't add the water, instead I add red wine.

@@@@@ Now You're Cooking! Export Format

Basic Homestyle Pot Roast

main dish, beef

3 pounds boneless chuck roast
3 potatoes; halved
3 carrots; sliced lengthwise
2 small onions; halved
1 package onion soup mix - (1 3/8 oz)
1/2 cup water
Freshly-cracked black pepper

Place potatoes, carrots and onions in bottom of the slow cooker. Add
roast, cutting in half or thirds to fit size of cooker. Sprinkle pepper
over roast as desired. Pour contents of soup mix over all. Add water.
Cook on LOW for 8 to 10 hours.

Remove the roast to a serving platter and place vegetables around it.
The
liquid may be used as a light gravy.

This recipe yields 8 servings.

Source:
"Downloaded from WWW"
S(Formatted for MC5):
"08-03-1999 by Joe Comiskey - [email hidden]"

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Per Serving (excluding unknown items): 58 Calories; trace Fat (2.0%
calories from fat); 2g Protein; 13g Carbohydrate; 2g Dietary Fiber; 0mg
Cholesterol; 13mg Sodium. Exchanges: 1/2 Grain(Starch); 1 Vegetable.

Nutr. Assoc. : 0 0 0 0 0 0 0

Contributor: n/a

Yield: 8 servings

Preparation Time: 0:00

** Exported from Now You're Cooking! v5.66 **

--
No Bread Crumbs were hurt in the making of this Meal.
Type 2 Diabetic 1AC 7.3, 5.5, 5.6 mmol
Continuing to be Manitoban

Dog3 <uhoh@ajfl;ajklsd;ajlds.nutz> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Sheryl Rosen <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Dog3 at uhoh@ajfl;ajklsd;ajlds.nutz wrote on 3/23/05 3:04 PM:

Quoted message said:

"Carol In WI" <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

> I do mine in a crockpot, with potatoes, carrots, bay leaf, onion
> soup mix and au jus, I leave at 5 in the a.m., start it than, on
> slow all day, sometimes I kick it onto high for the last hour.
> Always comes out sooooo tender. Carol In WI
>
>
>

This I've not done. I've done beans and hocks. Pot roast is
always in the oven. It's just me

Michael

Crockpots were MADE to make pot roast!!!!
The secret is to make sure you brown the meat first, just like you
would for oven or stove top simmering.

I make the most awesome pot roast from a top-blade roast in my
crock pot!

I like it in the oven. I've never had good luck with pot roast in
the crock pot. It never turns out right. I really don't us the crock
pot much anyway. It's not my fave cooking tool. I make soup and
ham/beans in it and that's about it. The thing is huge and makes a
ton of soup. I'm sure a roast would go in well. Maybe I'll give it a
try some day. I make awesome cheese soup in it. The broth simmers
and I slowly add the milk and cheese at different intervals. Oh, and
a can of beer for kicks. BTW, what does everyone use for cheese
soup? I've tried several including a bleu. I like cheddar the best
but somewhere, out there is something better. I'm just not sure. I
love cheese soup and mushroom soup. I've got a handle on the
mushroom soup. I'm just not sure about the cheese soup 😉

Michael

Sometimes I don't add the water, instead I add red wine.

@@@@@ Now You're Cooking! Export Format

Basic Homestyle Pot Roast

main dish, beef

3 pounds boneless chuck roast
3 potatoes; halved
3 carrots; sliced lengthwise
2 small onions; halved
1 package onion soup mix - (1 3/8 oz)
1/2 cup water
Freshly-cracked black pepper

Place potatoes, carrots and onions in bottom of the slow cooker. Add
roast, cutting in half or thirds to fit size of cooker. Sprinkle pepper
over roast as desired. Pour contents of soup mix over all. Add water.
Cook on LOW for 8 to 10 hours.

Remove the roast to a serving platter and place vegetables around it.
The
liquid may be used as a light gravy.

This recipe yields 8 servings.

Source:
"Downloaded from WWW"
S(Formatted for MC5):
"08-03-1999 by Joe Comiskey - [email hidden]"

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Per Serving (excluding unknown items): 58 Calories; trace Fat (2.0%
calories from fat); 2g Protein; 13g Carbohydrate; 2g Dietary Fiber; 0mg
Cholesterol; 13mg Sodium. Exchanges: 1/2 Grain(Starch); 1 Vegetable.

Nutr. Assoc. : 0 0 0 0 0 0 0

Contributor: n/a

Yield: 8 servings

Preparation Time: 0:00

** Exported from Now You're Cooking! v5.66 **

--
No Bread Crumbs were hurt in the making of this Meal.
Type 2 Diabetic 1AC 7.3, 5.5, 5.6 mmol
Continuing to be Manitoban

On Wed 30 Mar 2005 07:26:19p, Monsur Fromage du Pollet wrote in
rec.food.cooking:

Quoted message said:

Dog3 <uhoh@ajfl;ajklsd;ajlds.nutz> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Sheryl Rosen <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Dog3 at uhoh@ajfl;ajklsd;ajlds.nutz wrote on 3/23/05 3:04 PM:

> "Carol In WI" <[email hidden]> wrote in
> news:[email hidden]:
>
>> I do mine in a crockpot, with potatoes, carrots, bay leaf, onion
>> soup mix and au jus, I leave at 5 in the a.m., start it than, on
>> slow all day, sometimes I kick it onto high for the last hour.
>> Always comes out sooooo tender. Carol In WI
>>
>>
>>
>
> This I've not done. I've done beans and hocks. Pot roast is
> always in the oven. It's just me
>
> Michael

Crockpots were MADE to make pot roast!!!!
The secret is to make sure you brown the meat first, just like you
would for oven or stove top simmering.

I make the most awesome pot roast from a top-blade roast in my
crock pot!

I like it in the oven. I've never had good luck with pot roast in
the crock pot. It never turns out right. I really don't us the crock
pot much anyway. It's not my fave cooking tool. I make soup and
ham/beans in it and that's about it. The thing is huge and makes a
ton of soup. I'm sure a roast would go in well. Maybe I'll give it a
try some day. I make awesome cheese soup in it. The broth simmers
and I slowly add the milk and cheese at different intervals. Oh, and
a can of beer for kicks. BTW, what does everyone use for cheese
soup? I've tried several including a bleu. I like cheddar the best
but somewhere, out there is something better. I'm just not sure. I
love cheese soup and mushroom soup. I've got a handle on the
mushroom soup. I'm just not sure about the cheese soup 😉

Michael

Sometimes I don't add the water, instead I add red wine.

@@@@@ Now You're Cooking! Export Format

Basic Homestyle Pot Roast

main dish, beef

3 pounds boneless chuck roast
3 potatoes; halved
3 carrots; sliced lengthwise
2 small onions; halved
1 package onion soup mix - (1 3/8 oz)
1/2 cup water
Freshly-cracked black pepper

Place potatoes, carrots and onions in bottom of the slow cooker. Add
roast, cutting in half or thirds to fit size of cooker. Sprinkle pepper
over roast as desired. Pour contents of soup mix over all. Add water.
Cook on LOW for 8 to 10 hours.

Remove the roast to a serving platter and place vegetables around it.
The
liquid may be used as a light gravy.

This recipe yields 8 servings.

Source:
"Downloaded from WWW"
S(Formatted for MC5):
"08-03-1999 by Joe Comiskey - [email hidden]"

Do you brown the roast before adding to the pot?

--
Wayne Boatwright
____________________________________________

Give me a smart idiot over a stupid genius any day.
Sam Goldwyn, 1882-1974

On Wed 30 Mar 2005 07:26:19p, Monsur Fromage du Pollet wrote in
rec.food.cooking:

Quoted message said:

Dog3 <uhoh@ajfl;ajklsd;ajlds.nutz> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Sheryl Rosen <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Dog3 at uhoh@ajfl;ajklsd;ajlds.nutz wrote on 3/23/05 3:04 PM:

> "Carol In WI" <[email hidden]> wrote in
> news:[email hidden]:
>
>> I do mine in a crockpot, with potatoes, carrots, bay leaf, onion
>> soup mix and au jus, I leave at 5 in the a.m., start it than, on
>> slow all day, sometimes I kick it onto high for the last hour.
>> Always comes out sooooo tender. Carol In WI
>>
>>
>>
>
> This I've not done. I've done beans and hocks. Pot roast is
> always in the oven. It's just me
>
> Michael

Crockpots were MADE to make pot roast!!!!
The secret is to make sure you brown the meat first, just like you
would for oven or stove top simmering.

I make the most awesome pot roast from a top-blade roast in my
crock pot!

I like it in the oven. I've never had good luck with pot roast in
the crock pot. It never turns out right. I really don't us the crock
pot much anyway. It's not my fave cooking tool. I make soup and
ham/beans in it and that's about it. The thing is huge and makes a
ton of soup. I'm sure a roast would go in well. Maybe I'll give it a
try some day. I make awesome cheese soup in it. The broth simmers
and I slowly add the milk and cheese at different intervals. Oh, and
a can of beer for kicks. BTW, what does everyone use for cheese
soup? I've tried several including a bleu. I like cheddar the best
but somewhere, out there is something better. I'm just not sure. I
love cheese soup and mushroom soup. I've got a handle on the
mushroom soup. I'm just not sure about the cheese soup 😉

Michael

Sometimes I don't add the water, instead I add red wine.

@@@@@ Now You're Cooking! Export Format

Basic Homestyle Pot Roast

main dish, beef

3 pounds boneless chuck roast
3 potatoes; halved
3 carrots; sliced lengthwise
2 small onions; halved
1 package onion soup mix - (1 3/8 oz)
1/2 cup water
Freshly-cracked black pepper

Place potatoes, carrots and onions in bottom of the slow cooker. Add
roast, cutting in half or thirds to fit size of cooker. Sprinkle pepper
over roast as desired. Pour contents of soup mix over all. Add water.
Cook on LOW for 8 to 10 hours.

Remove the roast to a serving platter and place vegetables around it.
The
liquid may be used as a light gravy.

This recipe yields 8 servings.

Source:
"Downloaded from WWW"
S(Formatted for MC5):
"08-03-1999 by Joe Comiskey - [email hidden]"

Do you brown the roast before adding to the pot?

--
Wayne Boatwright
____________________________________________

Give me a smart idiot over a stupid genius any day.
Sam Goldwyn, 1882-1974

In Bob said:

My main crockpot uses are:

1. Chili, especially on Super Bowl Sunday
2. Slow-cooking pork roasts or ribs
3. Chicken stew

Yes, the only way to make chili or any stew. Any roast, pork, beef or
venison (actually, venison is wonderful this way with tomatoes/garlic).
Never tried ribs but will keep it in mind. And a whole chicken is great
too but I'd imagine this would only go over during the winter in a
colder climate like we have here up in Sunny Saskatchewan. It's just
wonderful to walk in the house and smell the chicken simmering when
you've been outside in -35 weather. Gotta live it to love it ;-)

--
Cheers

Dennis

Remove 'Elle-Kabong' to reply

In Bob said:

My main crockpot uses are:

1. Chili, especially on Super Bowl Sunday
2. Slow-cooking pork roasts or ribs
3. Chicken stew

Yes, the only way to make chili or any stew. Any roast, pork, beef or
venison (actually, venison is wonderful this way with tomatoes/garlic).
Never tried ribs but will keep it in mind. And a whole chicken is great
too but I'd imagine this would only go over during the winter in a
colder climate like we have here up in Sunny Saskatchewan. It's just
wonderful to walk in the house and smell the chicken simmering when
you've been outside in -35 weather. Gotta live it to love it ;-)

--
Cheers

Dennis

Remove 'Elle-Kabong' to reply

Wayne Boatwright <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Do you brown the roast before adding to the pot?

Depends if I have time or remember to. It does add flavour but it's
fairly tasty even if you don't.

--
No Bread Crumbs were hurt in the making of this Meal.
Type 2 Diabetic 1AC 7.3, 5.5, 5.6 mmol
Continuing to be Manitoban

Wayne Boatwright <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Do you brown the roast before adding to the pot?

Depends if I have time or remember to. It does add flavour but it's
fairly tasty even if you don't.

--
No Bread Crumbs were hurt in the making of this Meal.
Type 2 Diabetic 1AC 7.3, 5.5, 5.6 mmol
Continuing to be Manitoban

On Wed 30 Mar 2005 08:43:17p, Monsur Fromage du Pollet wrote in
rec.food.cooking:

Quoted message said:

Wayne Boatwright <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Do you brown the roast before adding to the pot?

Depends if I have time or remember to. It does add flavour but it's
fairly tasty even if you don't.

Thanks! I have your recipe going into my crockpot tomorrow morning. I'll
have time, so I'll probably brown it. Sounds really good!

--
Wayne Boatwright
____________________________________________

Give me a smart idiot over a stupid genius any day.
Sam Goldwyn, 1882-1974

On Wed 30 Mar 2005 08:43:17p, Monsur Fromage du Pollet wrote in
rec.food.cooking:

Quoted message said:

Wayne Boatwright <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Do you brown the roast before adding to the pot?

Depends if I have time or remember to. It does add flavour but it's
fairly tasty even if you don't.

Thanks! I have your recipe going into my crockpot tomorrow morning. I'll
have time, so I'll probably brown it. Sounds really good!

--
Wayne Boatwright
____________________________________________

Give me a smart idiot over a stupid genius any day.
Sam Goldwyn, 1882-1974

Ruddell said:

In Bob said:

My main crockpot uses are:

1. Chili, especially on Super Bowl Sunday
2. Slow-cooking pork roasts or ribs
3. Chicken stew

Yes, the only way to make chili or any stew. Any roast, pork, beef or
venison (actually, venison is wonderful this way with tomatoes/garlic).

You can make your stew in a crock pot if you want, but I prefer to brown the
meat on the stove top and then finish the braising in the oven. I have had
Crock Pot stews and they just don't compare.
Sorry.
:-)

Ruddell said:

In Bob said:

My main crockpot uses are:

1. Chili, especially on Super Bowl Sunday
2. Slow-cooking pork roasts or ribs
3. Chicken stew

Yes, the only way to make chili or any stew. Any roast, pork, beef or
venison (actually, venison is wonderful this way with tomatoes/garlic).

You can make your stew in a crock pot if you want, but I prefer to brown the
meat on the stove top and then finish the braising in the oven. I have had
Crock Pot stews and they just don't compare.
Sorry.
:-)

Dave Smith said:

Ruddell said:

In Bob said:

My main crockpot uses are:

1. Chili, especially on Super Bowl Sunday
2. Slow-cooking pork roasts or ribs
3. Chicken stew

Yes, the only way to make chili or any stew. Any roast, pork, beef

or

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

venison (actually, venison is wonderful this way with

tomatoes/garlic).

Quoted message said:

You can make your stew in a crock pot if you want, but I prefer to

brown the

Quoted message said:

meat on the stove top and then finish the braising in the oven. I

have had

Quoted message said:

Crock Pot stews and they just don't compare.
Sorry.
:-)

I prefer to do stew on the stove top. Oven temperature settings are
just too iffy for maintaining a precise low simmer... in the oven how
do you even know... at 300dF you're cooking at a roaring boil, at 225dF
it's still too hot, at 200dF it's probably too slow. I like my stews
to be at a temperature where only an occasional bubble breaks the
surface (can only do that with a gas cooktop) and I like to stir and
taste often... plus I add ingredients in order of their cooking times,
just too much trouble constantly removing a pot from the oven. And as
for crock pots, well, they're simply a crock... iffn yer gonna toss it
all in at once and eight hours later take crock luck, may as well heat
a can of Dinty Moore, 'cause then with either all's ya can do to
customize it is add a blob of ketchup or some such. Crock potting is
no different from pressure potting, just at opposite ends of the
spectrum... but neither is cooking, they remove the human element,
they're food processing (pressure pot is far worse, 'cause yer
processing blind)... canned stew is actually better. "Pressure Cooker"
is a misnomer, it's a *Pressure Pot/Vessel*... it *cannot* cook... it's
a piece of manufacturing equipment that produces manufactured food, ie.
indistinguishable from commercial pet food.

Sheldon

Sheldon said:

Dave Smith said:

Ruddell said:

In <[email hidden]> Bob wrote:

>My main crockpot uses are:
>
>1. Chili, especially on Super Bowl Sunday
>2. Slow-cooking pork roasts or ribs
>3. Chicken stew

Yes, the only way to make chili or any stew. Any roast, pork, beef or
venison (actually, venison is wonderful this way with tomatoes/garlic).

You can make your stew in a crock pot if you want, but I prefer to brown the
meat on the stove top and then finish the braising in the oven. I have had
Crock Pot stews and they just don't compare.
Sorry.
:-)

I prefer to do stew on the stove top. Oven temperature settings are
just too iffy for maintaining a precise low simmer...

Funny thing how people have been doing braises for millennia. But don't
let that influence your Navy-Cook wisdom.

Quoted message said:

in the oven how
do you even know... at 300dF you're cooking at a roaring boil, at 225dF
it's still too hot, at 200dF it's probably too slow.

Well, then. It's a shame poor sludgewit Sheldon doesn't have one of
those new-fangled ovens where you can actually set the temperature
*between* the numbers.

Quoted message said:

I like my stews
to be at a temperature where only an occasional bubble breaks the
surface (can only do that with a gas cooktop) and I like to stir and
taste often... plus I add ingredients in order of their cooking times,
just too much trouble constantly removing a pot from the oven. And as
for crock pots, well, they're simply a crock... iffn yer gonna toss it
all in at once and eight hours later take crock luck, may as well heat
a can of Dinty Moore, 'cause then with either all's ya can do to
customize it is add a blob of ketchup or some such.

But if you have the remotest IQ, you can do the same thing in a crock
pot that you claim is so urgent on top of the stove. You can taste. You
can add ingredients in the sequence you'd like. You can adjust
temperature settings very critically. Just like a person with normal
mental capacities.

Quoted message said:

Crock potting is
no different from pressure potting, just at opposite ends of the
spectrum... but neither is cooking, they remove the human element,

Right. Because once you start the process, you can't check on it, alter
it or otherwise influence it. Says so right here in the manual...

Quoted message said:

they're food processing (pressure pot is far worse, 'cause yer
processing blind)... canned stew is actually better. "Pressure Cooker"
is a misnomer, it's a *Pressure Pot/Vessel*... it *cannot* cook... it's
a piece of manufacturing equipment that produces manufactured food, ie.
indistinguishable from commercial pet food.

You never use a pressure cooker (for all the wrong reasons), but you
know all about it. You never use a crockpot (for equally stupid
reasons), but you know all about it. Could you be more of an ignorant
blowhole [censored]?

Rhetorical...

Pastorio

Sheldon said:

Quoted message said:

You can make your stew in a crock pot if you want, but I prefer to

brown the

Quoted message said:

meat on the stove top and then finish the braising in the oven. I

have had

Quoted message said:

Crock Pot stews and they just don't compare.
Sorry.
:-)

I prefer to do stew on the stove top. Oven temperature settings are
just too iffy for maintaining a precise low simmer... in the oven how
do you even know... at 300dF you're cooking at a roaring boil, at 225dF
it's still too hot, at 200dF it's probably too slow. I like my stews
to be at a temperature where only an occasional bubble breaks the
surface (can only do that with a gas cooktop) and I like to stir and
taste often... plus I add ingredients in order of their cooking times,

I have had too much trouble trying to regulate the temperature on all the
different stoves I have had over the years. A few years ago I tried the
oven, and every stew I have made in the oven since that time has turned out
to be very tender. It's a tried and true method for me.