Re: Soy is Safe.

"Juhana Harju" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

rick etter said:

"Juhana Harju" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

rick etter wrote:
> "Juhana Harju" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> news:[email hidden]...
>> Phred wrote:
>
> snippage...
>
>>>
>>> This is clearly [censored] about. You'd have to be brain dead to eat
>>> that [censored]!
>>
>> Okinawan elders, who eat a lot of soy, have a low prevalence of
>> dementia and
>> Azheimer's disease.

> Now, relate that to the [censored] that is produced and sold in the US.
> It is not the same product, dolt. Guess you have a hard time with
> conmprehension too, huh?

No, I don't think so. I agree that it is different if you eat
texturized soy
protein, which might not be so healthy.

LOL Which was the discussion I was in.

Are you drunk?

Quoted message said:

The inplication that soy is
soy, and that for those in the US to become magically healthy, all
they needed to do was switch to tofu meat substitutes.

Harvard university makes a clear distinction between processed soy
products and
other soy products and gives a recommendation:

"Eat soy in moderation.

=======================
ROTFLMAO Just above you where basing your spew on eating *lots* of soy...
You really should try to keep up.

Soybeans, tofu, and other soy-based foods are an

Quoted message said:

excellent alternative to red meat. But don't go overboard. Two to four
servings
a week is a good target. And stay away from supplements that contain
concentrated soy protein or soy extracts, such as isoflavones."

http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/protein.html

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> They eat more fruits and veggies than soy. They eat fish. And
> lastly, they eat less overall. Why do you think that soy is
> responsible for all the 'good?' Agenda driving are you?

I don't think that soy is "responsible for all good". But eaten as
tofu and with
diet loaded with vegetables and fish it is proven that it is not
dangerous either.

Really? That proof is where?

There is epidemilogical evidence from the studies of Okinawan elders that
eating
a diet loaded with vegetables, tofu and fish prevents dementia and
Alheimer
disease better than Western diets. There is less dementia and Alzheimer
disease
in the Okinawa than in Western countries.

======================
LOL The last such 'proof' posted here qoted an elderly lady that didn't go
to bed at night without drinking herself to sleep too. Besides, the soy
isn't mostly in the form of tofu, and sued as a meat substitute as it is
promoted here. They eat fish, and many freah fruits and veggies. And
again, they eat lots less than many peoples. So where do you pick out the
soy and claim that *ut* is the determining factor, and then promote soy
usage here in a different form? Agenda building?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The isoflavones in soy are good in preventing prostate cancer. That
is a clear advantage.

--
Juhana

"Juhana Harju" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Bruce Sinclair said:

In article <[email hidden]>, "Juhana Harju"

Quoted message said:

Okinawan elders, who eat a lot of soy, have a low prevalence of
dementia and Azheimer's disease.

http://www.okinawaprogram.com/study.html

Ah ... epidemiology ! What people use when they want to show cause and
effect .. and the last thing you should use for that purpose. 🙂

Perhaps you can explain another mechanism which makes the prevalance of
dementia
and Alzheimer disease so low in despite of the fact that they eat a lot of
soy?

=======================
The rest of their lifestyle/diet is also no where near typical for the US.
Again, you're concentration on a people that eat a soy product that is not
what was being promoted as 'good' here is telling of an agenda.

Quoted message said:

--
Juhana

"Juhana Harju" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Bruce Sinclair said:

In article <[email hidden]>, "Juhana Harju"

Quoted message said:

Okinawan elders, who eat a lot of soy, have a low prevalence of
dementia and Azheimer's disease.

http://www.okinawaprogram.com/study.html

Ah ... epidemiology ! What people use when they want to show cause and
effect .. and the last thing you should use for that purpose. 🙂

Perhaps you can explain another mechanism which makes the prevalance of
dementia
and Alzheimer disease so low in despite of the fact that they eat a lot of
soy?

=======================
The rest of their lifestyle/diet is also no where near typical for the US.
Again, you're concentration on a people that eat a soy product that is not
what was being promoted as 'good' here is telling of an agenda.

Quoted message said:

--
Juhana

In article said:

Bruce Sinclair said:

In article <[email hidden]>, "Juhana Harju"

Quoted message said:

Okinawan elders, who eat a lot of soy, have a low prevalence of
dementia and Azheimer's disease.

http://www.okinawaprogram.com/study.html

Ah ... epidemiology ! What people use when they want to show cause and
effect .. and the last thing you should use for that purpose. 🙂

Perhaps you can explain another mechanism which makes the prevalance of
dementia and Alzheimer disease so low in despite of the fact that they
eat a lot of soy?

Genetics?

Cheers, Phred.

--
[email hidden]

Juhana Harju <[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

Bruce Sinclair said:

In article <[email hidden]>, "Juhana Harju"

Quoted message said:

Okinawan elders, who eat a lot of soy, have a low prevalence of
dementia and Azheimer's disease.

http://www.okinawaprogram.com/study.html

Ah ... epidemiology ! What people use when they want to show cause and
effect .. and the last thing you should use for that purpose. 🙂

Perhaps you can explain another mechanism which makes the prevalance of dementia
and Alzheimer disease so low in despite of the fact that they eat a lot of soy?

Do they eat a lot of soy in okinawa?

--
Oz

Oz said:

Juhana Harju <[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

Bruce Sinclair said:

In article <[email hidden]>, "Juhana Harju"
<[email hidden]> wrote:

> Okinawan elders, who eat a lot of soy, have a low prevalence of
> dementia and Azheimer's disease.
>
> http://www.okinawaprogram.com/study.html

Ah ... epidemiology ! What people use when they want to show cause
and effect .. and the last thing you should use for that purpose. 🙂

Perhaps you can explain another mechanism which makes the prevalance
of dementia and Alzheimer disease so low in despite of the fact that
they eat a lot of soy?

Do they eat a lot of soy in okinawa?

Yes, they do. "Okinawans [...] probably eat more tofu than any other group in
the world. Our studies confirm that they consume, on average, an impressive 3
ounces of soy products a day, mostly as tofu and miso (soy paste), but also in a
few intriguing creations of their own." (Source: Willcox BJ, Willcox DC and
Suzuki M, The Okinawa Program. Clarkson Potter Publishers, NY 2001, p. 158)

--
Juhana

Juhana Harju said:

Oz said:

Juhana Harju <[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

Bruce Sinclair wrote:
> In article <[email hidden]>, "Juhana Harju"
> <[email hidden]> wrote:
>
>> Okinawan elders, who eat a lot of soy, have a low prevalence of
>> dementia and Azheimer's disease.
>>
>> http://www.okinawaprogram.com/study.html
>
> Ah ... epidemiology ! What people use when they want to show cause
> and effect .. and the last thing you should use for that purpose.
> 🙂

Perhaps you can explain another mechanism which makes the prevalance
of dementia and Alzheimer disease so low in despite of the fact that
they eat a lot of soy?

Do they eat a lot of soy in okinawa?

Yes, they do. "Okinawans [...] probably eat more tofu than any other
group in the world. Our studies confirm that they consume, on
average, an impressive 3 ounces of soy products a day, mostly as tofu
and miso (soy paste), but also in a few intriguing creations of their
own." (Source: Willcox BJ, Willcox DC and Suzuki M, The Okinawa
Program. Clarkson Potter Publishers, NY 2001, p. 158)

You can also look at this site, which confirms the fact.

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0838/is_125/ai_n6116796

--
Juhana

Juhana Harju said:

Oz said:

Juhana Harju <[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

Bruce Sinclair wrote:

>In article <[email hidden]>, "Juhana Harju"
><[email hidden]> wrote:
>
>
>>Okinawan elders, who eat a lot of soy, have a low prevalence of
>>dementia and Azheimer's disease.
>>
>>http://www.okinawaprogram.com/study.html
>
>Ah ... epidemiology ! What people use when they want to show cause
>and effect .. and the last thing you should use for that purpose. 🙂

Perhaps you can explain another mechanism which makes the prevalance
of dementia and Alzheimer disease so low in despite of the fact that
they eat a lot of soy?

Do they eat a lot of soy in okinawa?

Yes, they do. "Okinawans [...] probably eat more tofu than any other group in
the world. Our studies confirm that they consume, on average, an impressive 3
ounces of soy products a day, mostly as tofu and miso (soy paste), but also in a
few intriguing creations of their own." (Source: Willcox BJ, Willcox DC and
Suzuki M, The Okinawa Program. Clarkson Potter Publishers, NY 2001, p. 158)

Three ounces is one ounce less than a "standard" serving quantity of
meat per meal. Compare that to the average quantity of soy consumed in
the West, particularly among vegetarians who've not truly gotten over
their taste for meat and who consume soy burgers, soy dogs, etc. The
consumption of soy in Okinawa is a fraction in comparison.

Juhana Harju <[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

Yes, they do. "Okinawans [...] probably eat more tofu than any other group in
the world. Our studies confirm that they consume, on average, an impressive 3
ounces of soy products a day, mostly as tofu and miso (soy paste), but also in a
few intriguing creations of their own." (Source: Willcox BJ, Willcox DC and
Suzuki M, The Okinawa Program. Clarkson Potter Publishers, NY 2001, p. 158)

Three oz/day doesn't sound much. What proportion is it of their total
calorific intake is it?

--
Oz

Oz said:

Juhana Harju <[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

Yes, they do. "Okinawans [...] probably eat more tofu than any
other group in the world. Our studies confirm that they consume, on
average, an impressive 3 ounces of soy products a day, mostly as
tofu and miso (soy paste), but also in a few intriguing creations of
their own." (Source: Willcox BJ, Willcox DC and Suzuki M, The
Okinawa Program. Clarkson Potter Publishers, NY 2001, p. 158)

Three oz/day doesn't sound much. What proportion is it of their total
calorific intake is it?

It is said to be 12% _by weight_. Here are all proportions:

Vegetables 34%
Grains 32 %
Soy 12%
Fish 11 %
Fruits 6 %
Meat/poultry/eggs 3 %
Calsium rich foods (dairy, seeweed) 2%

(Same source as above)

--
Juhana

Juhana Harju said:

Oz said:

Juhana Harju <[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

Yes, they do. "Okinawans [...] probably eat more tofu than any
other group in the world. Our studies confirm that they consume, on
average, an impressive 3 ounces of soy products a day, mostly as
tofu and miso (soy paste), but also in a few intriguing creations of
their own." (Source: Willcox BJ, Willcox DC and Suzuki M, The
Okinawa Program. Clarkson Potter Publishers, NY 2001, p. 158)

Three oz/day doesn't sound much. What proportion is it of their total
calorific intake is it?

It is said to be 12% _by weight_. Here are all proportions:

Vegetables 34%
Grains 32 %
Soy 12%
Fish 11 %
Fruits 6 %
Meat/poultry/eggs 3 %
Calsium rich foods (dairy, seeweed) 2%

(Same source as above)

It is interesting to compare the Okinawan diet to the _American diet_:

Vegetables 16%
Grains 11 %
Soy < 1 %
Fish < 1 %
Fruits 20 %
Meat/poultry/eggs 29 %
Calsium rich foods (e.g. dairy) 23 %

(Same source as above)

The life-expectancy of Okinawans is *4.6* years higher than that of Americans.
And Okinawans have clearly less dementia and Alzheimer disease, heart disease
and cancer. Of course there are also other nations that have a high
life-expectancy like people living in some small countries (e.g. Andorra).

--
Juhana

"Juhana Harju" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Oz said:

Juhana Harju <[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

Bruce Sinclair wrote:
> In article <[email hidden]>, "Juhana Harju"
> <[email hidden]> wrote:
>
>> Okinawan elders, who eat a lot of soy, have a low prevalence of
>> dementia and Azheimer's disease.
>>
>> http://www.okinawaprogram.com/study.html
>
> Ah ... epidemiology ! What people use when they want to show cause
> and effect .. and the last thing you should use for that purpose. 🙂

Perhaps you can explain another mechanism which makes the prevalance
of dementia and Alzheimer disease so low in despite of the fact that
they eat a lot of soy?

Do they eat a lot of soy in okinawa?

Yes, they do. "Okinawans [...] probably eat more tofu than any other
group in
the world.

====================
And again, fool. It does not then equate to eating soy in the US as it it
produced. Is that too hard a concept for your 2 working braincells?

Our studies confirm that they consume, on average, an impressive 3

Quoted message said:

ounces of soy products a day, mostly as tofu and miso (soy paste), but
also in a
few intriguing creations of their own." (Source: Willcox BJ, Willcox DC
and
Suzuki M, The Okinawa Program. Clarkson Potter Publishers, NY 2001, p.
158)

--
Juhana

"Juhana Harju" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Juhana Harju said:

Oz said:

Juhana Harju <[email hidden]> writes
> Yes, they do. "Okinawans [...] probably eat more tofu than any
> other group in the world. Our studies confirm that they consume, on
> average, an impressive 3 ounces of soy products a day, mostly as
> tofu and miso (soy paste), but also in a few intriguing creations of
> their own." (Source: Willcox BJ, Willcox DC and Suzuki M, The
> Okinawa Program. Clarkson Potter Publishers, NY 2001, p. 158)

Three oz/day doesn't sound much. What proportion is it of their total
calorific intake is it?

It is said to be 12% _by weight_. Here are all proportions:

Vegetables 34%
Grains 32 %
Soy 12%
Fish 11 %
Fruits 6 %
Meat/poultry/eggs 3 %
Calsium rich foods (dairy, seeweed) 2%

(Same source as above)

It is interesting to compare the Okinawan diet to the _American diet_:

Vegetables 16%
Grains 11 %
Soy < 1 %
Fish < 1 %
Fruits 20 %
Meat/poultry/eggs 29 %
Calsium rich foods (e.g. dairy) 23 %

(Same source as above)

The life-expectancy of Okinawans is *4.6* years higher than that of
Americans.

==================
And soy has not been shown to account for that difference. Why do try to
promote it as such? Are you just a shill for the soybean board?

Quoted message said:

And Okinawans have clearly less dementia and Alzheimer disease, heart
disease
and cancer. Of course there are also other nations that have a high
life-expectancy like people living in some small countries (e.g. Andorra).

--
Juhana

In article said:

Oz said:

Juhana Harju <[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

Yes, they do. "Okinawans [...] probably eat more tofu than any
other group in the world. Our studies confirm that they consume, on
average, an impressive 3 ounces of soy products a day, mostly as
tofu and miso (soy paste), but also in a few intriguing creations of
their own." (Source: Willcox BJ, Willcox DC and Suzuki M, The
Okinawa Program. Clarkson Potter Publishers, NY 2001, p. 158)

Three oz/day doesn't sound much. What proportion is it of their total
calorific intake is it?

It is said to be 12% _by weight_. Here are all proportions:

Vegetables 34%
Grains 32 %
Soy 12%
Fish 11 %
Fruits 6 %
Meat/poultry/eggs 3 %
Calsium rich foods (dairy, seeweed) 2%

Looks like what we call a fairly balanced diet. How does this "prove that
soy is safe" in any way ?

Bruce

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to
think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone´s fault.
If it was Us, what did that make Me ? After all, I´m one of Us. I must be.
I´ve certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No-one ever thinks
of themselves as one of Them. We´re always one of Us. It´s Them that do
the bad things. <=> Terry Pratchett. Jingo.

Caution ===== followups may have been changed to relevant groups
(if there were any)

In article said:

Juhana Harju wrote:

(snip)

Quoted message said:

The life-expectancy of Okinawans is *4.6* years higher than that of Americans.
And Okinawans have clearly less dementia and Alzheimer disease, heart disease
and cancer. Of course there are also other nations that have a high
life-expectancy like people living in some small countries (e.g. Andorra).

But you are still ascribing a cause to what is only a correlation. You
still can't do that. No matter how often you repeat this theory, it is
still wrong ... without more work. Sorry 🙂

Bruce

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to
think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone´s fault.
If it was Us, what did that make Me ? After all, I´m one of Us. I must be.
I´ve certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No-one ever thinks
of themselves as one of Them. We´re always one of Us. It´s Them that do
the bad things. <=> Terry Pratchett. Jingo.

Caution ===== followups may have been changed to relevant groups
(if there were any)