Re: The Historic Quotes Hits Too Close To The *GANG*

Discussion in 'Health and medical' started by Peter Moran, Jan 22, 2004.

  1. Peter Moran

    Peter Moran Guest

    "Rod" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > Peter,
    >
    > Much of the procedures you call AM, really deals with what Medical Science
    > calls the "Placebo Effect".


    Medical science recognises a placebo effect, but much of what happens when
    patients get better on a certain treatment, whether conventional or
    alternative is no "effect" at all, it is spontaneous. For example most
    patients with acute back pain will be better in three weeks regardless of
    any treatment, but people can still make a living from appearing to be
    "treating" it.

    >The "Placebo" ( I will please) is so strong that
    > it is the basis of Double Blinded, Placebo controlled Trials and Study for
    > Medicine.


    You misunderstand. A placebo or sham treatment is used in controlled
    trials to "control" for all possible extraneous influences, not because it
    is "strong". Studies where a placebo group has been compared with a "no
    treatment" group suggest that placebo "effects" are smaller than generally
    thought, at least in the context of conrolled trials. They have no or
    almost no effect on objective indices of illness but have some effect on
    pain perception and the patients' s assessment of the severity of other
    symptoms.

    But any effects of placebo, and the level of patient satisfaction with
    treatment, are not invested in a pill or procedure, they are a product of
    the whole therapeutic environment. Alternative medicine is not constrained
    by many of the inhibitions which prevent doctors from exploiting placebo
    effects to the fullest. To that extent you are correct. It has, however
    been well shown that patient satisfaction often bears little relationship to
    treatment effectiveness in objective tests. They also have no effect on
    cancer and most serious illnesses.

    > So much so, that the FDA has reported - in order to gain approval for a

    new
    > drug "You don't have to run against the placebo, but you have to beat the
    > placebo".
    > Medical Science is still in an evolutionary state and the lack of
    > understanding yet scientific use and acknowledgement of the "placebo

    effect"
    > is clear proof of this.


    Medical science is always evolving. There is also a lot of tension in
    medicine at the moment as to whether it can ethically exploit placebo
    effects more fully, as with Andrew Weil's "integrative medicine".. Can we
    go back to more innocent times? Fifty to sixty years ago the use of
    placebos was common and explicit within medicine, but most doctors I talk to
    feel that deceiving patients is wrong, and that better attention to and
    communication with patients will achieve similar outcomes . We also come
    up against informed consent issues that don't bother AM.

    Peter Moran
     
    Tags:


  2. Orac

    Orac Guest

    In article
    <[email protected]rks.com
    ..au>,
    "Peter Moran" <[email protected]> wrote:

    > Medical science is always evolving. There is also a lot of tension in
    > medicine at the moment as to whether it can ethically exploit placebo
    > effects more fully, as with Andrew Weil's "integrative medicine".. Can we
    > go back to more innocent times? Fifty to sixty years ago the use of
    > placebos was common and explicit within medicine, but most doctors I talk to
    > feel that deceiving patients is wrong, and that better attention to and
    > communication with patients will achieve similar outcomes . We also come
    > up against informed consent issues that don't bother AM.


    And in the United States, one faces the possibility of a malpractice
    suit if one deceives a patient by giving a placebo, even with the most
    benign intent.

    --
    Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."
    |
    |"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you
    | inconvenience me with questions?"
     
  3. Peter Moran

    Peter Moran Guest

    "Orac" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:eek:[email protected]
    > In article


    > And in the United States, one faces the possibility of a malpractice
    > suit if one deceives a patient by giving a placebo, even with the most
    > benign intent.


    Is this so???? I would have thought that would only apply if there was a
    poor outcome, and a better treatment existed. Or can you be sued if you
    simply don't tell the patient they are getting a placebo and they find out
    and become distressed?


    Peter Moran
     
  4. Orac

    Orac Guest

    In article
    <[email protected]rks.com
    ..au>,
    "Peter Moran" <[email protected]> wrote:

    > "Orac" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:eek:[email protected]
    > > In article

    >
    > > And in the United States, one faces the possibility of a malpractice
    > > suit if one deceives a patient by giving a placebo, even with the most
    > > benign intent.

    >
    > Is this so???? I would have thought that would only apply if there was a
    > poor outcome, and a better treatment existed. Or can you be sued if you
    > simply don't tell the patient they are getting a placebo and they find out
    > and become distressed?


    I'm pretty sure you could be sued for deceiving the patient. At least,
    given the litiginous nature of our country, I don't know any doctors who
    would have the balls to try it.

    --
    Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."
    |
    |"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you
    | inconvenience me with questions?"
     
  5. We have a elderly lady in our neighborhood, who, after high school,
    worked in a general practitioner's office...this would be the late
    1940ties when penicillin was still considered a "wonder drug".

    At any rate, she told me that this physician used to regularly give out
    pink sugar pills to his elderly arthritis patients or those just
    suffering from general aches & pains. She said it was amazing how
    often they "worked", & also that the pills worked even better when she
    chimed in about the "good results" they were seeing.

    Of course, it was simplier time.
     
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