Re: Training for Mt. Washington?

Dot dot.h@#duh?att.net said:

Quoted message said:

Any training advice for a first timer on Mt. Washington?

http://www.coolrunning.com/forums/Forum30/HTML/002041.shtml

I note there the advice would be to take forced walk breaks but they
don't say how long for, about ten mins running and teo mins walk? It'd
be hell getting going again!

Sofa - Spud said:

Dot dot.h@#duh?att.net said:

Quoted message said:

Any training advice for a first timer on Mt. Washington?

http://www.coolrunning.com/forums/Forum30/HTML/002041.shtml

I note there the advice would be to take forced walk breaks but they
don't say how long for, about ten mins running and teo mins walk? It'd
be hell getting going again!

With 11-12% slope, it's not too hard getting running again after a walk
break, esp. if you practice - at least in the 1st hour. Trained runners
can run the whole way. But it's "gentle" enough that most people can run
at least part of it. Finding the balance between running, power hiking,
and a mix is what people have to train for or make decisions about and
train appropriately. Everyone is different. Some can probably plan on
running the whole thing. Others will know they probably can't run the
full height at the outset at this time, and work on a run /walk
strategy. The saying is that "if you wait until you have to walk, you
waited too long" is probably true.

FWIW, that's about the same slope that Doug uses for his hill repeats of
1000-2500ft, depending on what he's training for, and I use for my
extended hill runs (but n=1 or 2 for me usually, so far). I think Doug
does about 8-10k of up in his training by the time he's done his reps.
Depending on which hill I use, it's about 900 ft, 1200ft, or close to
2000ft for each up - and I have run those the entire way (roads).
'Tweren't pretty, but the goal was to run.

If I'm going up (11%) and over the pass and then back over (7%?), I will
run/walk the first up if I have to so that I can run more of the 2nd up
rather than being too trashed or risk injury (hip area seems most
vulnerable to overuse). In a race, I'd be more likely to run the 7%
slope than the 11% slope, depending on context, so it's more specific.
But that's me as a beginner at this stuff. Doug could run over and back
that pass many times in one day. Doug does his training so he's either
completely running or completely hiking each of his reps and doesn't
switch within a rep.

For our mountain races (trails) around here (which I don't do), the
slopes are frequently near 30% for half the hill. Pitches in some are up
to 55% (measured with clinometer). While I can run short pitches of 30%
(our rolling hills are like that), I can't do much like that without
trashing my power hiking speed, which is slow if climbing a 3000ft mtn
(2.5 mi by trail). Those hills I hike. By the time I get to the top
(about 1.6 hr after starting), I'm usually too tired to run even on the
gentler 10% slopes. The well-trained runners can run those trails bottom
to top in about 45 min in training. They generally hike the whole thing
in a race since it's only the first leg and have 6000ft more climbing
with downhills thrown in. (14 mi, 9000ft, out/back, so 7500ft of up in
the 1st 7 mi) Mountain runners impress the heck out of me.

But 10% slopes are way different than 30% slopes.

Last year, I did smaller hill repeats on a variable slope that was
gentle (3 to 10%), steep (20-35% guess), gentle (5-10%) and I ran, power
hiked (close to LT), then ran again - with the specific intent of
training me mentally and physically to be able to switch gears as needed
- and to have the confidence to do it. It paid off in my race.

Jobs can tell you what our Mt. Marathon course looks like with 50%
slopes being close to average (trail part is 3000ft in 1mi, approx). He
hiked it while on vacation. I've never been on the mtn.

Dot

--
"The goal is training and adaptation, not destruction and injury."
- John Hardy
http://www.mountainrunning.coolrunning.com.au/misc/training.shtml

"Dot" <dot.h@#duh?att.net> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Sofa - Spud said:

Dot dot.h@#duh?att.net said:

[email hidden] wrote:

>Any training advice for a first timer on Mt. Washington?

http://www.coolrunning.com/forums/Forum30/HTML/002041.shtml

I note there the advice would be to take forced walk breaks but they
don't say how long for, about ten mins running and teo mins walk?
It'd
be hell getting going again!

I'm coming in late on this but to be vaguely over-general you need to
find some hills equal to or steeper and train on them. If you can't
mimic the conditions prior to the race then finding the right run/walk
ratio will not be easy race day, and as Dot says " "The saying is that
"if you wait until you have to walk, you waited too long" is probably
true."" Also note that it is imperative that you do BOTH hiking and
running in training. If you think just hiking/walking will be easy when
you can't run, you will have a sudden wake-up call to your hiking
muscles.

Quoted message said:

With 11-12% slope, it's not too hard getting running again after a
walk break, esp. if you practice - at least in the 1st hour. Trained
runners can run the whole way. But it's "gentle" enough that most
people can run at least part of it. Finding the balance between
running, power hiking, and a mix is what people have to train for or
make decisions about and train appropriately. Everyone is different.
Some can probably plan on running the whole thing. Others will know
they probably can't run the full height at the outset at this time,
and work on a run /walk strategy. The saying is that "if you wait
until you have to walk, you waited too long" is probably true.

Right on!

Quoted message said:

Doug does his training so he's either completely running or completely
hiking each of his reps and doesn't switch within a rep.

Just to add, I don't race using this strategy I alternate per steepness.
What I have found from past experience that when I mix run/walk on steep
ups, it gets easier and easier to walk when it gets hard or I'm a little
tired. I discipline myself to do the entire lap/distance with one or the
other. Please note, when you first start out it may not be possible to
run the whole way. When new people come with me I simply try to get them
to walk less each time by counting the breaks. Once they get the entire
way without a stop, and this may take may trips, it's a real mental
boost. So don't go out and find some mother of hill and try to pound
every inch.

I've always wanted to do this race but it's just too long a drive for
such a short race for me - 5 1/2 hours for 7 and change race - nah.

Others that I have run with say I can run the whole way but from the
web page

" The Course: The Mt. Washington Auto Road is 7.6 miles in length, has
an average grade of 11.5% with extended sections of 18%, and the last 50
yards is a 22% "wall" to the finish. There are mile posts along the
course, but these posts represent mileage from the Auto Road office
across Route 16 . Mile one is thus actually 0.9 mi. from the start. And
mile posts 2 - 7 are thus 1.9 - 6.9 miles. From milepost 7 to the finish
is 0.7 mi. There will be a digital clock at the exact halfway point of
the race (3.8 mi.). The course rises 4650 vertical feet from start to
finish. Relax, there's Only One Hill! "

this is no walk in the park. Those 18-22 % chunks sound nasty even for a
short segment. I'm not betting on me. 😉

Sooo, find some hills and practice run/walking. When race day comes your
legs and or breathing will let you know when to walk. The run back down
should be fun.

-Doug

Doug Freese said:

this is no walk in the park. Those 18-22 % chunks sound nasty even for a
short segment. I'm not betting on me. 😉

You'll notice I didn't say anything about whether I thought you could or
couldn't run the whole way.😉 (thought did cross my mind, but same
thoughts as yours, but I don't know what the rest of your hills look
like as far as steepness is concerned. So I remained non-committal.)

In some respects, doing 2000+ft on each repeat is harder than straight
up since you've got the downhill in there, but doing over 2x that in one
slug is something else. Their profile doesn't show the "extended"
sections of 18%, which could be a function of topo quality. Based on
comments by several people that have done it, it does sound like it's a
race where just hopping on a tm at 11.7% or so and running for 7 mi
would work as reasonable training.

Quoted message said:

Sooo, find some hills and practice run/walking. When race day comes your
legs and or breathing will let you know when to walk. The run back down
should be fun.

😉 and pick up the pieces at the bottom. (I think they expect most
runners to take vehicles down, according to web page.)

Dot

--
"The goal is training and adaptation, not destruction and injury."
- John Hardy
http://www.mountainrunning.coolrunning.com.au/misc/training.shtml

"Dot" <dot.h@#duh?att.net> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Doug Freese said:

Sooo, find some hills and practice run/walking. When race day comes
your legs and or breathing will let you know when to walk. The run
back down should be fun.

😉 and pick up the pieces at the bottom. (I think they expect most
runners to take vehicles down, according to web page.)

What, and miss a perfect warm-down. Just think of the minimal pollution
if cars were not allowed up. I'll call Gore and see if he can effect
some change. 😉

-Doug

Doug Freese said:

"Dot" <dot.h@#duh?att.net> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Doug Freese said:

Sooo, find some hills and practice run/walking. When race day comes
your legs and or breathing will let you know when to walk. The run
back down should be fun.

😉 and pick up the pieces at the bottom. (I think they expect most
runners to take vehicles down, according to web page.)

What, and miss a perfect warm-down. Just think of the minimal pollution
if cars were not allowed up. I'll call Gore and see if he can effect
some change. 😉

-Doug

I agree. They do mention that some experienced mountain runners do run
back down. Most of our uphill-only races you usually have to run or hike
to get back down anyway. It allows some time for sightseeing on top, but
I think they do it primarily to avoid very different speeds of 2-way
traffic on single-track trails. (The race at ski area has option of up
and down or take tram down.)

Amusingly, I had been reading a training article on hill running, by OA,
iirc. I believe some of the mtns in Kenya and Mt. Washington were
examples. He advised not to run down for fear of injury. Even the elites
take cars down from the top or go for tea somewhere. I can't remember
the names of the elites he gave, but he was describing their training
runs. But the whole concept of having a road on top one of those hills
is so completely foreign to my environment these days. (Yea, I've driven
up Pikes Peak, Mt. Washington, and a number of others in my earlier
years, so I know big mtns do sometimes have roads up them. Just one of
those cultural shock things.) And I've never really trusted OA again
since that article.😉

Dot

--
"The goal is training and adaptation, not destruction and injury."
- John Hardy
http://www.mountainrunning.coolrunning.com.au/misc/training.shtml

Dot dot.h@#duh?att.net said:

Doug Freese said:

"Dot" <dot.h@#duh?att.net> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Doug Freese wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>Sooo, find some hills and practice run/walking. When race day comes
>your legs and or breathing will let you know when to walk. The run
>back down should be fun.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

😉 and pick up the pieces at the bottom. (I think they expect most
runners to take vehicles down, according to web page.)

Quoted message said:

What, and miss a perfect warm-down. Just think of the minimal pollution
if cars were not allowed up. I'll call Gore and see if he can effect
some change. 😉

Quoted message said:

-Doug

I agree. They do mention that some experienced mountain runners do run
back down. Most of our uphill-only races you usually have to run or hike
to get back down anyway. It allows some time for sightseeing on top, but
I think they do it primarily to avoid very different speeds of 2-way
traffic on single-track trails. (The race at ski area has option of up
and down or take tram down.)

Amusingly, I had been reading a training article on hill running, by OA,
iirc. I believe some of the mtns in Kenya and Mt. Washington were
examples. He advised not to run down for fear of injury. Even the elites
take cars down from the top or go for tea somewhere. I can't remember
the names of the elites he gave, but he was describing their training
runs. But the whole concept of having a road on top one of those hills
is so completely foreign to my environment these days. (Yea, I've driven
up Pikes Peak, Mt. Washington, and a number of others in my earlier
years, so I know big mtns do sometimes have roads up them. Just one of
those cultural shock things.) And I've never really trusted OA again
since that article.😉

OA??

I can't think of Pikes Peak without the Audi UR Quattro leaping to
mind!!

Now thats what you need to get up there!!

I was at the gym earlier and though I don't run on treadmills I
thought I'd see what the gradient was like. The top of the range
LifeFitness treadies in there go up to 15% - I selected a brisk walk
and went for it. 15 mins and I was drenched in sweat and dying a
death!! There would be no way I could run a tready with it like that
( but I can't run them on the flat!) but to run a hill like that
outside would need a much better hip/thigh strength than I have.