Re: UltraMarathon Man

h squared wrote in message <[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Donovan Rebbechi wrote:
snip<
my point was that what he finds inspiring *may* be the wanting to "go to
the edge" and therefore i wouldn't be surprised to find him talking
about shackleton the way you seemed to be. please don't read that as an
excuse for not "giving due respect to ones peers and predecessors". now
that i get the bit about the implication by omission, i understand why
you were complaining about it.

DK is no Shakleton and the things he does are not remotely similar IMO.
Shakleton displayed incredible leadership, perseverance, brainpower, a
unique ability to inspire and get the best out of his men -- and quite
frankly very good luck. Not taking away anything from his proven leadership
abilities, either they had incredible statistical dumb luck that enabled
them to sail so far and not lose their bearing in rough seas, or God was
helping them.

This is like the stock market - by blind luck some fund managers will ride
winning streaks and their funds will be declared the top funds, only to have
their performance fall off later. Either that or they are god and understand
it all well enough to beat the odds. (There are certainly a few who fall
into this category, at least until the real God strikes them down, lol).

Inspiring though his story may be, one can't aspire to do the things
Shakleton did, or hope to develop the leadership qualities he lived. A cut
above other polar survival stories I've read, what stands out in the
Shakleton story is inspired intelligent leadership.

-Tony

h squared wrote in message ...

Quoted message said:

Tony said:

Inspiring though his story may be, one can't aspire to do the things
Shakleton did, or hope to develop the leadership qualities he lived. A

cut

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

above other polar survival stories I've read, what stands out in the
Shakleton story is inspired intelligent leadership.

yes, inspired and aspiring are certainly different things- i dug out the
book and copied this bit from the introduction as an illustration of how
it could inspire someone:

"it is difficult to put the hardships of shackleton's men into a
contemporary perspective. the crew of the endurance subsisted on meager
rations, were constantly freezing and soaked to the bone, went without
bathing for nearly a year, and wore their clothes until they were
practically rags. they were forced to eat penguin and seal
blubber-sometimes raw-and lived in a hut fashioned from two over turned
rowboats for over four months. they traveled eight hundred miles over
open seas navigating by sextant and dead reckoning in little more than a
large rowboat. they endured privation and hardships difficult to
comprehend. yet the entire crew survived (except the dogs- my addition,
hh), and they seemed to have remained in remarkably good spirits during
their ordeal- an ordeal that is enough to make the reader of this
incredible account hesitate to complain about ever being cold or hungry
again."

i can see myself struggling in some stupid race and telling myself that
i was too tired and more importantly, too scared to go on (and this
basically has happened to me, where i was sobbing out loud in public
like a big [censored]). i wish i had read the damned book the day before, and
maybe i wouldn't have quit.

hh

Great quote, thanks. Yes it may have inspired you, but obviously the two
situations are not the same. One is a desperate struggle to live; a race
situation can't be compared. The very instincts and smarts that enabled
Shakleton and his men to survive might make one consider dropping out of a
race one isn't trained properly for. It's a fine line, but the point is
there is choice. To be sure they made some very risky decisions, highlighted
in your quote above, but once decided there was no turning back, and taking
the more conservative option of staying put on the island had no better odds
of long term survival.

-Tony

Dot said:

Thanks for encouraging me to re-read the book looking for some

things. I

Quoted message said:

enjoyed the book the 1st time but didn't intend to re-read it since

I've

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got lots of other things to read, including one of Bernd Heinrich's
other books. I was surprised how hard I laughed at some scenes, even

the

Quoted message said:

2nd time through. And I did see the hyperbole the 2nd time through,

but

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I'm not sure we're seeing the same things as hyperbole.

Thanks. I may be viewing this in the wrong way. If it is an
autobiography, then I guess anything goes. If in fact he thinks that
Ann Trason had little or no impact on ultra running or his own ultra
running career, then he shouldn't mention her in his book. If he thinks
that running Boston in 2:15 is no biggie for an ultra runner, then he
should put charts in his book (even if they are wrong). If he thinks
he's the first and only runner to run 200+ miles without stopping, then
he is excused from mentioning any others that have done so in his book.
;-)

--
Phil M.

Donovan Rebbechi said:

BTW, would you care to name a better female ultra runner than "Ann Thingy" ?

Edith Berces.

Dot dot.h@#duh?att.net said:

Steve, for curiosity, have you heard of Monica Scholz (Canadian) or
Roberto Ghidoni?

Neither, sorry :-(

Quoted message said:

I was just wondering how much of what we see in US
appears on your radar. Ghidoni is Italian, but the race he's known for
is Alaskan.

I think that's probably it. Apart from the Badwater, not many US ultras get
much press here, except maybe through the "Ultrafondus" forum & magazine
www.ultrafondus.com

They ran an article on the "Barkley" ultra trail in April, did multi-page
"portraits" of Pam Reed and Scott Jurek, and even had an article on the more
extreme specialties (Yukon Arctic & Iditasport IIRC), some while back in the
printed magazine.

PS Apologies de Ann Trason and her fans, for not remembering her name along
with Sue Ellen Trapp, Eleanor Robinson or Ricarda Botzon :->

Tony said:

Great quote, thanks. Yes it may have inspired you, but obviously the two
situations are not the same. One is a desperate struggle to live; a race
situation can't be compared. The very instincts and smarts that enabled
Shakleton and his men to survive might make one consider dropping out of a
race one isn't trained properly for. It's a fine line, but the point is
there is choice. To be sure they made some very risky decisions, highlighted
in your quote above, but once decided there was no turning back, and taking
the more conservative option of staying put on the island had no better odds
of long term survival.

every body has a choice. before they even left on their expedition to
cross the continent, they knew it was potentially dangerous and that
they would have to rely on themselves mostly to survive. (scott had just
died recently on the way back from the pole, for example). yet they
still voluntarily went.

like dronkert wrote in rbr anyway about inspiration- "it's all
bollocks". i can't make somebody else feel it, just has to be.

h

h squared wrote in message ...

Quoted message said:

Tony said:

Great quote, thanks. Yes it may have inspired you, but obviously the two
situations are not the same. One is a desperate struggle to live; a race
situation can't be compared. The very instincts and smarts that enabled
Shakleton and his men to survive might make one consider dropping out of

a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

race one isn't trained properly for. It's a fine line, but the point is
there is choice. To be sure they made some very risky decisions,

highlighted

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

in your quote above, but once decided there was no turning back, and

taking

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the more conservative option of staying put on the island had no better

odds

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

of long term survival.

every body has a choice. before they even left on their expedition to
cross the continent, they knew it was potentially dangerous and that
they would have to rely on themselves mostly to survive. (scott had just
died recently on the way back from the pole, for example). yet they
still voluntarily went.

like dronkert wrote in rbr anyway about inspiration- "it's all
bollocks". i can't make somebody else feel it, just has to be.

h

Scott was an ill-prepared moron IMO. He took ponies! Amunson (sp?) on the
other hand became an expert with the time-tested methods of cold weather
travel - skis and dogs, and almost made it look easy. I admire Amunson more
because he was smart about it and was willing to put in the time to learn
from the experts and become an expert skier and dog-handler himself.

-Tony

steve common said:

Donovan Rebbechi said:

BTW, would you care to name a better female ultra runner than "Ann Thingy" ?

Edith Berces.

Don't think she was mentioned in DK's book either (-;

Seriously, Ann "Thingy" does hold some long standing world records, and
dominated the WS100 for several years. Can understand how you wouldn't have
heard of her (just as I hadn't heard of Berces prior to your post) but anyone
paying much attention to the big races in America has (even DK).

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

steve common said:

Dot dot.h@#duh?att.net said:

Steve, for curiosity, have you heard of Monica Scholz (Canadian) or
Roberto Ghidoni?

Neither, sorry :-(

Quoted message said:

I was just wondering how much of what we see in US
appears on your radar. Ghidoni is Italian, but the race he's known for
is Alaskan.

I think that's probably it. Apart from the Badwater, not many US ultras get
much press here, except maybe through the "Ultrafondus" forum & magazine
www.ultrafondus.com

They ran an article on the "Barkley" ultra trail in April,

It's interesting what makes international press 😉 "Trail" is probably a
loose use of the term for that event.

did multi-page

Quoted message said:

"portraits" of Pam Reed and Scott Jurek, and even had an article on the more
extreme specialties (Yukon Arctic & Iditasport IIRC), some while back in the
printed magazine.

That's interesting that Yukon Arctic and Iditasport pop up on your
radar. As an aside, Iditasport has actually been replaced by Iditarod
Trail Invitational (ITI) (350 mi, 1100 mi) and Susitna 100 (100 mi, 50k)
(racers disagreed with RD so launched their own - twice), but many still
refer to ITI as Iditasport since it's far fewer syllables and more
recognized 😉

Roberto Ghidoni (nicknamed the "Italian moose"😉 is the runner who has
made it to Nome the most times (3, I think, but maybe 4) and is the
record holder for both the 350 and 1100 mi versions.

It's one of those events, where the event is far better known (whether
people remember name or not) than any winners, who "win" bragging rights.

There's more international competitors (Great Britain, Italy, France,
maybe some others - can't find this year's list) in ITI than there are
Alaskans, and probably more than US residents. Su100 tends to be
Alaskans and other US. Most Alaskans have better sense than spending 3-4
wks running across the state in winter 😉

Monica Scholz is best known for 23 100s (including Su100) in one year
and a 24-hr WR on treadmill (charity fund raiser) where she set the
record in 2x hrs, stopped, showered, and went to the office with a
couple hours still on the clock. (That record has since been broken.)

Dot
don't ask me who the WR-holder for any "normal" race is

--
"So many people get stuck in the routine of life that their dreams waste
away. This is about living the dream." - Cave Dog

In article <gjcge.636$q44.23@trndny05>, Tony <[email hidden]>
writes

Quoted message said:

h squared wrote in message ...

Quoted message said:

Tony said:

Great quote, thanks. Yes it may have inspired you, but obviously the two
situations are not the same. One is a desperate struggle to live; a race
situation can't be compared. The very instincts and smarts that enabled
Shakleton and his men to survive might make one consider dropping out of

a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

race one isn't trained properly for. It's a fine line, but the point is
there is choice. To be sure they made some very risky decisions,

highlighted

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

in your quote above, but once decided there was no turning back, and

taking

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the more conservative option of staying put on the island had no better

odds

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

of long term survival.

every body has a choice. before they even left on their expedition to
cross the continent, they knew it was potentially dangerous and that
they would have to rely on themselves mostly to survive. (scott had just
died recently on the way back from the pole, for example). yet they
still voluntarily went.

like dronkert wrote in rbr anyway about inspiration- "it's all
bollocks". i can't make somebody else feel it, just has to be.

h

Scott was an ill-prepared moron IMO. He took ponies! Amunson (sp?) on the
other hand became an expert with the time-tested methods of cold weather
travel - skis and dogs, and almost made it look easy. I admire Amunson more
because he was smart about it and was willing to put in the time to learn
from the experts and become an expert skier and dog-handler himself.

-Tony

There isn't/wasn't the ski running/dog handling culture in England that
there was in Norway, I doubt whether Scott and his men could ever had
acquired Amundsen's skills in that respect. More interestingly his pony
expert/calvary captain/ Boer war hero (whose name escapes me for the
moment) wasn't consulted on the purchase of Siberian ponies.

Of course Amundsen kept his plans secret so in that respect it was a
race in which the other guy didn't have the club vest on.

Being somewhat intoverted he didn't have the begging-bowl skills of
Shackleton in getting sponsorship, and his Royal Navy background didn't
help with non-military team. Shackleton. of course, was able to learn
from Scott's mistakes.

For all his mistakes I still admire him for his own strength and
endurance.
--
Ken

Donovan Rebbechi said:

Don't think she was mentioned in DK's book either (-;

:-P

Quoted message said:

Seriously, Ann "Thingy" does hold some long standing world records,

Yep, I just hadn't retained her name from the ultra records tables. Sorry
again for the slight.

Dot dot.h@#duh?att.net said:

Roberto Ghidoni (nicknamed the "Italian moose"😉 is the runner who has
made it to Nome the most times (3, I think, but maybe 4) and is the
record holder for both the 350 and 1100 mi versions.

There's me red-faced twice in the same thread :-)

Quoted message said:

It's one of those events, where the event is far better known (whether
people remember name or not) than any winners, who "win" bragging rights.

I just dug out the issue of Ultrafondus mag and they talked about the events
in an article about a french ultra runner, hence no mention of Italians - of
which maybe Marco Olmo (a vegetarian btw) is currently the best know over
here.

Pity it's not possible to google on printed matter ;-)