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Re: Van Impe situation, by Magilla

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Road Cycling
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23 March 2008
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27 March 2008
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Amit Ghosh
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  1. Sandy said:

    A reminder, nonetheless: all the riders are presumed not to violate the
    rules. Presumed to be non guilty. Well, yes, that's how the rules read.
    But the practice is the opposite.

    that's what you keep saying, but what backs this up ?

    you claim that the system is biased towards finding athletes guilty. i
    know what you will say about how the CAS panel is composed, but can
    you show me any data or any inkling of evidence that guility athletes
    are being improperly suspended ?

    the athletes that are being implicated in doping scandals are guility.
    a small percentage admit to it and accept a penalty and a large
    fraction deny it and cast doubt on the doping control system and
    perhaps years later admit they were doping (virenque, jeanson).

    this van impe incident was the first of it's kind out of the thousands
    of OOC tests that get administered, but i don't think it justifies
    changing the rules to create opportunities for athletes to subvert the
    system.

    like i said if privacy is to trump OOC testing it might as well be
    scrapped.

    in fact since autologous blood doping isn't detectable all testing
    should be scrapped, since tests will only catch dumb riders and low
    level riders who can't afford the test doping schemes.

  2. Dans le message de
    news:[email hidden],
    Amit Ghosh <[email hidden]> a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :

    Quoted message said:


    you claim that the system is biased towards finding athletes guilty. i
    know what you will say about how the CAS panel is composed, but can
    you show me any data or any inkling of evidence that guility athletes
    are being improperly suspended ?

    I have often had to be patient with shoe sized IQ's, so I will extend that
    courtesy to you and your simian brethren.

    One (a rather large portion of mankind, excluding you, et alii) does not go
    about life presuming everyone around is violating the social contract.
    Remember 5th grade (perhaps last year)? Kids take a lot of tests, and they
    are designed to diagnose, not to inculpate. Let's say in a class of 20
    bright students, 18 get all answers right to a test of 50 questions. Under
    your scenario, 17 were cheating by receiving, and 1 one cheating by giving
    correct answers sub rosa.

    I don't think anyone here expects that cheating never occurs under such
    circumstances, but few will come to the conclusion that all were cheating.
    Most will believe that talented students get right answers most of the time.
    But under your and UCI's and WADA's operating principles, all 18 are
    presumed to have cheated, will be suspended indefinitely, will have prior
    exams re-examined, will have their overall veracity impugned, and the two
    less talented will be honored as the "true champions."

    Funny how it is just as likely that the weaker students were the ones
    cheating, especially if they got the same answers wrong. But in
    your/UCI/WADA scenario, they are less suspect, even if tested. We will all
    take a few minutes to see if that lightbulb suddenly switches on over your
    head .................. How did that feel?

    Quoted message said:


    the athletes that are being implicated in doping scandals are guility.

    I suggest you read and re-read that sentence several times over in order to
    capture the illogic presented. Go ahead. Another few minutes ..........

    Come back for refresher lessons when needed.

    --
    Sandy

    Ce n'est pas que j'ai peur de la mort.
    Je veux seulement ne pas être là
    quand elle arrivera.

  3. "Bob Schwartz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Amit Ghosh said:

    you claim that the system is biased towards finding athletes guilty. i
    know what you will say about how the CAS panel is composed, but can
    you show me any data or any inkling of evidence that guility athletes
    are being improperly suspended ?

    the athletes that are being implicated in doping scandals are guility.
    a small percentage admit to it and accept a penalty and a large
    fraction deny it and cast doubt on the doping control system and
    perhaps years later admit they were doping (virenque, jeanson).

    There have been multiple documented incidents of athletes suspended
    because of false positive EPO tests. A test that WADA knew had
    problems.

    Once that happened it was up to the athlete to provide evidence of
    the false positive. This is not cheap. A few did it. How many
    evaluated the value of a 12k dreamer career as a professional
    athlete and just walked away? But these are people that no one
    cares about, so no one gives a [censored].

    Well certainly no one claiming to be a Liberal and employed as a college
    professor or other civil service who is guaranteed employment after he
    reaches tenure may teach anything he likes including treason without
    hindrance of college rules.

    Strange that these same sort of people despise working people who would
    prefer to have a say in their own treatment.

  4. Sandy said:

    To properly permit a police officer to select a person to test for this
    violation, there is to be a minimal, be it slim, preliminary observation by
    the cop that a driver is likely impaired, usually the inept conduct of the
    vehicle.

    dumbass,

    in some places (like my city) there can be spot checks and every
    driver passing through that point is stopped and checked for
    impairment.

    that isn't the same thing as ever driver is presumed guilty. only
    those that fail an impairment test are are charged and have to appear
    in court.

  5. Bob Schwartz said:
    Amit Ghosh said:

    you claim that the system is biased towards finding athletes guilty. i
    know what you will say about how the CAS panel is composed, but can
    you show me any data or any inkling of evidence that guility athletes
    are being improperly suspended ?

    the athletes that are being implicated in doping scandals are guility.
    a small percentage admit to it and accept a penalty and a large
    fraction deny it and cast doubt on the doping control system and
    perhaps years later admit they were doping (virenque, jeanson).

    There have been multiple documented incidents of athletes suspended
    because of false positive EPO tests. A test that WADA knew had
    problems.

    Bob Schwartz

    Thanks for listing all the examples of those athletes who were suspended
    because of a "false positive" for EPO.....

    Magilla

  6. Bob Schwartz said:
    Amit Ghosh said:

    you claim that the system is biased towards finding athletes guilty. i
    know what you will say about how the CAS panel is composed, but can
    you show me any data or any inkling of evidence that guility athletes
    are being improperly suspended ?

    the athletes that are being implicated in doping scandals are guility.
    a small percentage admit to it and accept a penalty and a large
    fraction deny it and cast doubt on the doping control system and
    perhaps years later admit they were doping (virenque, jeanson).

    There have been multiple documented incidents of athletes suspended
    because of false positive EPO tests. A test that WADA knew had
    problems.

    Once that happened it was up to the athlete to provide evidence of
    the false positive. This is not cheap. A few did it. How many
    evaluated the value of a 12k dreamer career as a professional
    athlete and just walked away? But these are people that no one
    cares about, so no one gives a [censored].

    In order to convict Bergman they had to change the standards after
    the offense but before the hearing. WTF is up with that? But he
    did it so no one gives a [censored].

    When Muehlegg and Luzutina lost their Olympic skiing medals it was
    because of a series of events that would have been thrown out in a
    criminal court as entrapment. Would they have committed the offense
    if WADA had been honest about developing the test? Does anyone care?

    Bob Schwartz

    I am familiar with both of those athletes cases. You are a lunatic.
    They were both guilty as sin.

    Muehlegg actually tested positive for Aranesp, which has special marker
    tags that cannot even be confused with endogenous EPO!

    I can't take you people seriously anymore.

    Magilla

  7. MagillaGorilla said:
    Quoted message said:

    I can't take you people seriously anymore.

    ottenga perso

  8. Dans le message de
    news:[email hidden],
    Amit Ghosh <[email hidden]> a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :

    Quoted message said:
    Sandy said:

    To properly permit a police officer to select a person to test for
    this violation, there is to be a minimal, be it slim, preliminary
    observation by the cop that a driver is likely impaired, usually the
    inept conduct of the vehicle.

    dumbass,

    in some places (like my city) there can be spot checks and every
    driver passing through that point is stopped and checked for
    impairment.

    that isn't the same thing as ever driver is presumed guilty. only
    those that fail an impairment test are are charged and have to appear
    in court.

    You get points for reading; next, try for comprehension.

    Spot checks are designed to allow police to OBSERVE something that indicates
    they should administer a TEST. Just as they OBSERVE traffic generally to
    isolate the incompetent driver, be he drunk or just clumsy.

    Keep going - we're having fun already.

  9. MagillaGorilla said:

    I am familiar with both of those athletes cases. You are a lunatic.
    They were both guilty as sin.

    Muehlegg actually tested positive for Aranesp, which has special marker
    tags that cannot even be confused with endogenous EPO!

    I can't take you people seriously anymore.

    That wasn't my point. But you knew that.

    Bob Schwartz

  10. MagillaGorilla said:

    Thanks for listing all the examples of those athletes who were suspended
    because of a "false positive" for EPO.....

    The names are easily googled. But you knew that.

    Bob Schwartz

  11. In article <[email hidden]>, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com>

    Quoted message said:

    "Bob Schwartz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Amit Ghosh said:

    you claim that the system is biased towards finding athletes guilty. i
    know what you will say about how the CAS panel is composed, but can
    you show me any data or any inkling of evidence that guility athletes
    are being improperly suspended ?

    the athletes that are being implicated in doping scandals are guility.
    a small percentage admit to it and accept a penalty and a large
    fraction deny it and cast doubt on the doping control system and
    perhaps years later admit they were doping (virenque, jeanson).

    There have been multiple documented incidents of athletes suspended
    because of false positive EPO tests. A test that WADA knew had
    problems.

    Once that happened it was up to the athlete to provide evidence of
    the false positive. This is not cheap. A few did it. How many
    evaluated the value of a 12k dreamer career as a professional
    athlete and just walked away? But these are people that no one
    cares about, so no one gives a [censored].

    Well certainly no one claiming to be a Liberal and employed as a college
    professor or other civil service who is guaranteed employment after he
    reaches tenure may teach anything he likes including treason without
    hindrance of college rules.

    Strange that these same sort of people despise working people who would
    prefer to have a say in their own treatment.

    ENGLISH, PLEASE!

    Seriously, Bob, the Tombot is starting to get wacky and even more unstable than
    usual. I suppose it's because the election is approaching and "his side" is looking
    to be in pretty bad shape.

    --
    tanx,
    Howard

    Whatever happened to
    Leon Trotsky?
    He got an icepick
    That made his ears burn.

    remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

  12. MagillaGorilla said:
    Kyle Legate said:


    Actually, a failed A test only is presumed guilty and the B test is
    only a formality, available for repeated testing if need be until the
    result agrees with the A test.

    Just ask Iban Mayo.

    The B-sample doesn't have to be tested in order to sustain a guilty
    finding against an athlete.

    Thanks for restating essentially what I was saying. I guess now it has
    credibility?

  13. Howard Kveck said:

    Seriously, Bob, the Tombot is starting to get wacky and even more unstable than
    usual. I suppose it's because the election is approaching and "his side" is looking
    to be in pretty bad shape.

    I wrote him to thrive on cognitive dissonance so elections are a real
    source of energy. And as much as I might like to re-write the US
    elections process, that one is beyond me.

    Bob Schwartz

  14. Bob Schwartz <[email hidden]> wrote in
    news:[email hidden]:

    Quoted message said:
    Howard Kveck said:

    Seriously, Bob, the Tombot is starting to get wacky and even more
    unstable than
    usual. I suppose it's because the election is approaching and "his
    side" is looking to be in pretty bad shape.

    I wrote him to thrive on cognitive dissonance so elections are a real
    source of energy. And as much as I might like to re-write the US
    elections process, that one is beyond me.

    He's sort of like an intellectual Andromeda Strain. We detonated the
    self-destruct warhead and now the world will never be rid of it.

    --
    Bill Asher

  15. Sandy said:

    Spot checks are designed to allow police to OBSERVE something that indicates
    they should administer a TEST. Just as they OBSERVE traffic generally to
    isolate the incompetent driver, be he drunk or just clumsy.

    If what they OBSERVE is what exhaled air does to a breathalyzer (no
    preselection, except that I have never been stopped when riding past a
    spot check site, but then again the standard is different for cyclists),
    I'd call that a TEST. In this jurisdiction, a subsequent blood TEST
    used to be mandatory, but that is no longer the case.

    As for doping tests, isn't there a reason why the out-of-competition
    tests are called random?

  16. William Asher said:

    He's sort of like an intellectual Andromeda Strain.

    Is Schwartz posting from the Andromeda galaxy ? Magilla
    would probably claim the laws of physics as applied to velodromes
    are different there.

  17. Kyle Legate said:

    Thanks for restating essentially what I was saying. I guess now it has
    credibility?

    On the planet of the apes.

  18. Bob Schwartz said:
    MagillaGorilla said:

    Thanks for listing all the examples of those athletes who were
    suspended because of a "false positive" for EPO.....

    The names are easily googled. But you knew that.

    Bob Schwartz

    List two. (What would I Google under anyway? Do you think that just
    because an article alleges it was a false positive that means it was?)

    List two examples of an EPO false positive. No Google. You list them.

    Magilla

  19. MagillaGorilla said:
    Bob Schwartz said:
    MagillaGorilla said:

    Thanks for listing all the examples of those athletes who were
    suspended because of a "false positive" for EPO.....

    The names are easily googled. But you knew that.

    Bob Schwartz

    List two. (What would I Google under anyway? Do you think that just
    because an article alleges it was a false positive that means it was?)

    List two examples of an EPO false positive. No Google. You list them.

    Since when am I your search engine? Start with 'beke epo'.
    it should be simple enough to discern the others, including
    the lengths of their suspensions. Once you get a false
    positive it will take you close to the length of the
    suspension plus lots of cash to overturn it. Not that
    anyone cares.

    And don't ask me to wipe your ass for you after taking a
    dump. Do your own damn searches and wipe your own ass.

    Bob Schwartz

  20. "MagillaGorilla" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Bob Schwartz said:
    MagillaGorilla said:

    Thanks for listing all the examples of those athletes who were suspended
    because of a "false positive" for EPO.....

    The names are easily googled. But you knew that.

    Bob Schwartz

    List two. (What would I Google under anyway? Do you think that just
    because an article alleges it was a false positive that means it was?)

    List two examples of an EPO false positive. No Google. You list them.

    Just so we're clear - the EPO test results are AMBIGUOUS in some 80% of the
    cases and are INTERPRETTED by the person performing the test. That's why the
    French Lab seems to be finding a great many positives and no one else is.

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