Re: Vitamin E dangerous?

In article <[email hidden]>,

willbill said:

Larry Hoover wrote:

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"Adam Becker Sr" <[email hidden]> wrote

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Full-text (link), abstract below: [to Huang and Appell]

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http://www.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/133/10/3137
</HOOVER>

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OK, OK! I was unimpressed by the Miller meta-analysis. But the Huang
and Appell study (who are from Johns Hopkins, just as Miller is)
caught my attention. I'm quitting my 400mg alpha-tocopherol
supplements today!

Meta-analysis is VERY dangerous; this is speaking as a
statistician. However, there is other information to
indicate the value of it, as long as other antioxidants
are also taken, and I am keeping mine.

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Hey, a convert! ;-)

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Just for info, are there Vitamin E supplements available out there
that have a reasonable mix of the 8 different forms? Are there animal
studies that have been done with the mixture? Any that are specific
to diabetes?

These are rather hard to get NOW.

There was a diabetes-specific study some years ago which
found that 400 to 1200 units/day significantly reduced
the level of HbA1c.

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I'd be looking for "mixed tocopherols", and/or some mention of at least
gamma-tocopherol on the label. There is another "category" of vitamin E altogether,
the tocotrienols. It's all a nomenclature nightmare, to be honest. Just take a
gander at this page about the nomenclature:

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http://www.chem.qmul.ac.uk/iupac/misc/toc.html

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Maybe there's something in the links (references) to the Huang article.

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wouldn't it be safer (and cheaper) to just
focus on getting your vitamin E from your diet?

Vitamin E is a cheap vitamin.

Quoted message said:

say from eating fresh salad/frozen vegies (which
have some vitamin E), and especially some raw
almonds and raw sunflower seeds (which are both
rich with vitamin E)

You would be hard pressed to get anywhere near 100
units of vitamin E, unless you used a lot of soy oil.
or the more difficult to obtain, but richer, wheat
germ oil. The figures I have seen would be that to
get 100 units, it would take 180 fat calories from
wheat germ oil, or 450 fat calories from soy oil.
Vitamin E being fat soluble, veggies are not high
in it.

--
This address is for information only. I do not claim that these views
are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University.
Herman Rubin, Department of Statistics, Purdue University
[email hidden] Phone: (765)494-6054 FAX: (765)494-0558

Hi Jan:

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Wheat germ oil is getting my interest as it has a quite large spectrum
of different tocopherols and tocotrienols, at least six out of eight.
http://www.tocotrienol.org/sources.htm

Your reference did present a nice table of the oils containing different
tocopherols and tocotrienols.

The following study examined the dietary intake of principally of palm
and soy oils effects on serum and adipose (fat) tissue.

Population-based study of {alpha}- and {gamma}-tocopherol in plasma and
adipose tissue as biomarkers of intake in Costa Rican adults
http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/74/3/356

"Results: Dietary {gamma}-tocopherol correlated with adipose tissue and
plasma concentrations, regardless of supplement use. Dietary
{alpha}-tocopherol correlated poorly with adipose tissue and plasma
concentrations, and these correlations were even lower when users of
vitamin supplements (n = 24) were excluded (adipose tissue: r = 0.10, P
< 0.05; plasma: r = 0.09, P < 0.05). Compared with subjects who reported
palm shortening (36%) as the major type of fat used for cooking,
subjects using soybean oil (52%) had higher amounts of both {alpha}- and
{gamma}-tocopherol in their diets. However, only {gamma}-tocopherol
concentrations were higher in the plasma and adipose tissue of soybean
oil users.

Conclusions: Plasma and adipose tissue concentrations of
{gamma}-tocopherol are equally good biomarkers of intake. The weak
associations between {alpha}-tocopherol intake and plasma or adipose
tissue concentrations suggest that these biomarkers are influenced more
by factors other than {alpha}-tocopherol intake.

.... the response to dietary modification is much slower in adipose
tissue (>2 y to reach steady state) (17) than in plasma (1–2 d) (18).
The slow turnover rate in adipose tissue suggests that adipose tissue
vitamin E may be a better marker of long-term intake and the preferred
biomarker in case-control studies (19). About 90% of vitamin E is
contained in adipose tissue (20). One study showed that the relation
between total dietary vitamin E and adipose tissue concentrations of
{alpha}-tocopherol in subjects not taking vitamin supplements is
relatively low (r = 0.20) (21), ...

In addition to the variation in food sources, the bioavailability of
tocopherols may depend on genetic differences in absorption and
metabolism (22, 23)."

There seemed to be some advantages to soy oil versus palm oil dietary
sources for the metabolism of gamma tocopherol in adipose tissues.

The following article is by one of the co-authors of the article that
brought the current interest in vitamin E, Lawrence J. Appel, also from
Johns Hopkins University. The main theme of the article is in the title
and was also the topic of some articles written in the 1980s listed in
the References section. It would make one wonder why the supplement
manufacturers have continued production of products solely composed of
{alpha}-Tocopherol. On the other hand, there have been quite a few
studies that have supported the synergistic benefits of mixed or
{alpha}- and {gamma}- tocopherols.

Supplementation of Diets with {alpha}-Tocopherol Reduces Serum
Concentrations of {gamma}- and {delta}-Tocopherol in Humans
http://www.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/133/10/3137

Some significant excerpts:
1. Vitamin E is a collective term for eight naturally occurring
compounds, four tocopherols ({alpha}-, ß-, {gamma}- and {delta}-) and
four tocotrienols ({alpha}-, ß-, {gamma}- and {delta}-), that
qualitatively exhibit the biological activities of {alpha}-tocopherol.
The eight forms of vitamin E are not interconvertible in humans.

2. The affinity of tocopherols other than alpha for alpha- tocopherol
transfer protein in the liver cytoplasm are respectively, gamma- 9%,
delta- 2%, and beta- 38% that of alpha- whereas it is 12% for alpha-
tocotrienol. (interpreted per Discussion section).

3. A previous study estimated that the period required to reach a new
steady-state distribution of tocopherols would be 2 y after 1 y of
{alpha}-tocopherol supplementation (18). These findings suggest that the
effects of long-term {alpha}-tocopherol supplement use on serum
concentrations of {gamma}- and {delta}-tocopherol are not only
substantial but also prolonged.

Frank

Herman Rubin said:

willbill wrote:

Quoted message said:

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wouldn't it be safer (and cheaper) to just
focus on getting your vitamin E from your diet?

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Vitamin E is a cheap vitamin.

agreed, especially if you get it
from eating sensible food. 🙂

Quoted message said:

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say from eating fresh salad/frozen vegies (which
have some vitamin E), and especially some raw
almonds and raw sunflower seeds (which are both
rich with vitamin E)

Quoted message said:

You would be hard pressed to get anywhere near 100
units of vitamin E, unless you used a lot of soy oil.
or the more difficult to obtain, but richer, wheat
germ oil. The figures I have seen would be that to
get 100 units, it would take 180 fat calories from
wheat germ oil, or 450 fat calories from soy oil.
Vitamin E being fat soluble, veggies are not high
in it.

what makes you think you need 100 units
(or more) of vitamiin E?

afaik, the current RDA for vitamin E
is a lot less than 100 units

btw, aren't you a type-2 diabetic?

fwiw, i have no clue of who this Hoover dude is

bill type-1 diabetic since '57

"willbill" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Herman Rubin said:

willbill wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

wouldn't it be safer (and cheaper) to just
focus on getting your vitamin E from your diet?

Quoted message said:

Vitamin E is a cheap vitamin.

agreed, especially if you get it
from eating sensible food. 🙂

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

say from eating fresh salad/frozen vegies (which
have some vitamin E), and especially some raw
almonds and raw sunflower seeds (which are both
rich with vitamin E)

Quoted message said:

You would be hard pressed to get anywhere near 100
units of vitamin E, unless you used a lot of soy oil.
or the more difficult to obtain, but richer, wheat
germ oil. The figures I have seen would be that to
get 100 units, it would take 180 fat calories from
wheat germ oil, or 450 fat calories from soy oil.
Vitamin E being fat soluble, veggies are not high
in it.

what makes you think you need 100 units
(or more) of vitamiin E?

afaik, the current RDA for vitamin E
is a lot less than 100 units

You act like the RDA is written in stone.
Vitamin E slows the damage cause by DM
to the blood vessels and vision. I'll post the reference.

The recent "meta study" that was anti E was largely
BS.

Quoted message said:

btw, aren't you a type-2 diabetic?

fwiw, i have no clue of who this Hoover dude is

Larry has be posting for years. He has a very
long track record unlike you.

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bill type-1 diabetic since '57

William_Noyes said:

"willbill" wrote

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Quoted message said:

Herman Rubin wrote:

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willbill wrote:

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> wouldn't it be safer (and cheaper) to just
> focus on getting your vitamin E from your diet?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Vitamin E is a cheap vitamin.

Quoted message said:

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agreed, especially if you get it
from eating sensible food. 🙂

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

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> say from eating fresh salad/frozen vegies (which
> have some vitamin E), and especially some raw
> almonds and raw sunflower seeds (which are both
> rich with vitamin E)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

You would be hard pressed to get anywhere near 100
units of vitamin E, unless you used a lot of soy oil.
or the more difficult to obtain, but richer, wheat
germ oil. The figures I have seen would be that to
get 100 units, it would take 180 fat calories from
wheat germ oil, or 450 fat calories from soy oil.
Vitamin E being fat soluble, veggies are not high
in it.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

what makes you think you need 100 units
(or more) of vitamiin E?

afaik, the current RDA for vitamin E
is a lot less than 100 units

Quoted message said:

You act like the RDA is written in stone.

i'm well aware that RDA amounts are not written in stone

otoh, i see that the OP's CBS ref is a decent
writeup (i just read it), and it states:
<"Adults get about 10 IU of vitamin E from diet">

per day of course

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Vitamin E slows the damage cause by DM
to the blood vessels and vision. I'll post the reference.

i'll be interested in seeing that ref

TIA. 🙂

fwiw and afaik, the thing that best slows diabetic
complications are having a robust gene set and
keeping decent control of one's blood sugar levels
(not necessarily in that order)

and i'm guessing that a diet that puts 1st emphasis
on vegies and fruits (preferrably fresh) is another
big plus. latest ref can be seen at:
www.cnn.com/2004/HEALTH/11/17/health.apples.reut/index.html

God help those diabetics who get gastroparesis
(imo the worst diabetic complication) coz afaik
it limits their ability to eat vegies, and likely
also fruits (fruits are easier to digest)

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The recent "meta study" that was anti E was largely BS.

i'll bet the farm that the recent study is dead center correct

what i find curious is how both you and Hoover are willing
to write it off

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btw, aren't you a type-2 diabetic?

fwiw, i have no clue of who this Hoover dude is

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Larry has be posting for years. He has a very
long track record unlike you.

i have a sense of this, and thank you
for confirming it. 🙂 (straight input coz
Hoover clearly posts in a thoughtful way)

btw, just because i don't hang out here much
(i.e. sci.med.nutrition) doesn't make Hoover right
and me wrong

btw2, i have a long track record out on misc.health.diabetes,
as does Herman. 🙂

bill type-1 diabetic since '57

In article <[email hidden]>,

willbill said:

Herman Rubin wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

willbill wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

wouldn't it be safer (and cheaper) to just
focus on getting your vitamin E from your diet?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Vitamin E is a cheap vitamin.

Quoted message said:

agreed, especially if you get it
from eating sensible food. 🙂

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

say from eating fresh salad/frozen vegies (which
have some vitamin E), and especially some raw
almonds and raw sunflower seeds (which are both
rich with vitamin E)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

You would be hard pressed to get anywhere near 100
units of vitamin E, unless you used a lot of soy oil.
or the more difficult to obtain, but richer, wheat
germ oil. The figures I have seen would be that to
get 100 units, it would take 180 fat calories from
wheat germ oil, or 450 fat calories from soy oil.
Vitamin E being fat soluble, veggies are not high
in it.

Quoted message said:

what makes you think you need 100 units
(or more) of vitamiin E?

Possibly taking aspirin provides a problem. However,
other studies have found evidence of benefits from
higher doses, and I believe they used 100 or 200
units/day as the cutoff point. Vitamin E is an
antioxidant, and I believe that its activity is
found to be involved with that of selenium, vitamin A,
and vitamin C. What we know about the long-term
effects of nutritional supplements is little.

Quoted message said:

afaik, the current RDA for vitamin E
is a lot less than 100 units

So? My current endocrinologist put me on "megadoses"
of B-vitamins to help with neuropathy. The RDA for
vitamin C was ridiculously low for most of a century,
and is probably low now. I have posted about studies
which show a short-term effect on A1c. The claimed
dangerous effects were in rather ill people. I have
seen a recommendation for 800 units of E from a good
endocrinologist.

Quoted message said:

btw, aren't you a type-2 diabetic?

Yes. What is the effect of vitamin E on Syndrome X?
From what I now know, I probably developed Syndrome X
about 40 years before my diabetes was diagnosed.

--
This address is for information only. I do not claim that these views
are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University.
Herman Rubin, Department of Statistics, Purdue University
[email hidden] Phone: (765)494-6054 FAX: (765)494-0558

Herman Rubin said:

willbill wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Herman Rubin wrote:

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willbill wrote:

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> wouldn't it be safer (and cheaper) to just
> focus on getting your vitamin E from your diet?

<snip>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

what makes you think you need 100 units
(or more) of vitamiin E?

Quoted message said:

Possibly taking aspirin provides a problem. However,
other studies have found evidence of benefits from
higher doses, and I believe they used 100 or 200
units/day as the cutoff point. Vitamin E is an
antioxidant, and I believe that its activity is
found to be involved with that of selenium, vitamin A,
and vitamin C.

that didn't answer my question, so i'll repeat it:

what makes you think you need 100 units
(or more) of vitamiin E? (per day of course)

Quoted message said:

What we know about the long-term
effects of nutritional supplements is little.

in general, agreed

but the "meta" study this thread is based on raises
still more serious questions about being very
careful about taking meds (or foods) of any kind
(including vitamin/mineral supplements) longterm

another issue is that the original OP's ref
sez that:
<"Adults get about 10 IU of vitamin E from diet">

i remember Linus Pauling's foray into taking
MEGA doses of vitamin C. i bought an expensive
hard back book by him on the subject roughly
15+ years ago. 🙂 then about 5 or 6 years
ago, while posting on misc.health.diabetes,
i got a ref to JDF (Juvenile Diabetes Foundation)
and they were saying to not take vitamin C (!!)
but to take mega doses of vitamin E (!!!)

fwiw, my Endo of that time was also saying
(to me) to take mega doses of vitamin E!!!!!

the current study clearly sez to *not*
take mega doses of vitamin E pills, and
raises the question of whether taking
even small doses of vitamin E pill
might be questionable

what we now know is increasingly STRONGLY
suggesting that we've got a long ways to go
to having adequate understanding of what
is best for *longterm* consumption, other
than real food of course, and even there
it's best to consume a *wide* *range*
of *different* real foods

fwiw, i don't have any problems with taking meds
*shortterm* whereas i have increasing questions on
taking meds *longterm* (with only a few exceptions,
like insulin and thyroid hormones (both of which i take,
which are still the only 2 things i take longterm))

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

afaik, the current RDA for vitamin E
is a lot less than 100 units

Quoted message said:

So? My current endocrinologist put me on "megadoses"
of B-vitamins to help with neuropathy. The RDA for
vitamin C was ridiculously low for most of a century,
and is probably low now. I have posted about studies
which show a short-term effect on A1c. The claimed
dangerous effects were in rather ill people. I have
seen a recommendation for 800 units of E from a good
endocrinologist.

Quoted message said:

btw, aren't you a type-2 diabetic?

Quoted message said:

Yes.

Herman, the question was rhetorical. 🙂

i'm well aware that you are an insulin
using type-2 diabetic

as you know, i've used insulin for 47 years,
not that that makes me right on anything
like a complicated subjet like diet (which
is the one area where t2's like you are
most prone to fight battles on mhd)

Quoted message said:

What is the effect of vitamin E on Syndrome X?
From what I now know, I probably developed Syndrome X
about 40 years before my diabetes was diagnosed.

sorry but i haven't a clue on Syndrome X

are you saying that you think that Syndrome X
(for type-2 diabetics) might be positively
addressed by taking mega doses of vitamin-E pills?

if yes, my guess is you'd be better to focus
on rethinking your diet for better intake
of real vitamin E

bill t1 since '57

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden]
says...

Quoted message said:

that didn't answer my question, so i'll repeat it:

what makes you think you need 100 units
(or more) of vitamiin E? (per day of course)

I may be wrong, but I believe the OP was commenting along the lines
of: *IF* you want to get 100 IU per day (for whatever reason), that
is difficult to do by diet alone, since the vit E content of even vit
E rich foods is low. I don't believe that is controversial.

Whether one *should want* to get 100IU/day is a completely different
and quite controversial matter.

/Chris