Re: Warnings or not!

sandy saunders said:

Sounds good in theory for members of the PC brigade, but as one
said during the interview that it would probably lead more 'inexperience'
walkers up to have a look .... then think, that looks easy!

I heard the article but interpreted that bit differently. I thought
he was saying that if you label one part as "Difficult" and another
part as "Easy" then unprepared people will walk the easy route and be
surprised when it is not as easy as they expected. How can wild
countryside be classified down to a level that "normal" people
understand?

I may have misunderstood, as I could not hear the radio properly
because I was shouting at it!

Judith

Bitstring <[email hidden]>, from the
wonderful person Judith <[email hidden]> said

Quoted message said:

sandy saunders said:

Sounds good in theory for members of the PC brigade, but as one
said during the interview that it would probably lead more 'inexperience'
walkers up to have a look .... then think, that looks easy!

I heard the article but interpreted that bit differently. I thought
he was saying that if you label one part as "Difficult" and another
part as "Easy" then unprepared people will walk the easy route and be
surprised when it is not as easy as they expected. How can wild
countryside be classified down to a level that "normal" people
understand?

I may have misunderstood, as I could not hear the radio properly
because I was shouting at it!

LOL, I was shouting at the TV instead. This being the same week that
'cotton wooling' kids was decried as a bad idea. Anyone that unprepared
(I mean there are 1001 resources about good/bad ways up Snowdon)
probably can't read anyway .. let's have blue coats at the bottom
directing traffic??

--
GSV Three Minds in a Can
10,002 Km walked. 1,952 Km PROWs surveyed. 35.5% complete.

Quoted message said:

I heard the article but interpreted that bit differently. I thought
he was saying that if you label one part as "Difficult" and another
part as "Easy" then unprepared people will walk the easy route and be
surprised when it is not as easy as they expected. How can wild
countryside be classified down to a level that "normal" people
understand?

I must admit I was 'ironing' at the time (Clare away so doing my bit before
an early morning long walk tomorrow) and my concentration may have lapsed
from the radio, though I remember the bit about notices warning of dangerous
paths.

Quoted message said:

I may have misunderstood, as I could not hear the radio properly
because I was shouting at it!

I didn't shout at the radio ............... just thought 'here we go again
...... lets close all dangerous footpaths!'

--
Sandy Saunders @ www.thewalkzone.co.uk
'Mountains or Mole Hills, summiting
still brings the same excitement!'

Marking mountain tracks in the alps seems to work pretty well with
signs and times to given destinations. Can't see it happening here
though. That's one thing you really realise when you walk abroad -
mountain walking in the UK is pretty 'hard core'. You need to know
where you are going, be independant and prepared for weather and
accidents. Not a bad life lesson all in all.

Of course, the media are just jumping on this story unnecessarily
because it's a rare occurrence. Ten people are killed on our roads
every day but the media don't harp on about that do they?.

Quoted message said:

Marking mountain tracks in the alps seems to work pretty well with
signs and times to given destinations. Can't see it happening here
though. That's one thing you really realise when you walk abroad -
mountain walking in the UK is pretty 'hard core'. You need to know
where you are going, be independant and prepared for weather and
accidents. Not a bad life lesson all in all.

OK, I see the same in Andalucia on mountain trails, fingerpost giving times
and destination, but they do not give an indication of severity of the
terrain. This is what was being aired on the radio tonight - signs being
placed indicating the path has potential dangers.

Quoted message said:

Of course, the media are just jumping on this story unnecessarily
because it's a rare occurrence. Ten people are killed on our roads
every day but the media don't harp on about that do they?.

Your right about the media .... but that's probably why these incidents get
prominence because they are 'rare', whereas road deaths are a 'regular' and
the public are 'conditioned' to them.

--
Sandy Saunders @ www.thewalkzone.co.uk
'Mountains or Mole Hills, summiting
still brings the same excitement!'

"sandy saunders" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Yes, it was on Radio 4 news program 'PM', tonight, about placing warnings
after 11 year old Liam Costello (see BBC link for story
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/north_west/7066690.stm) fell to his death
from Crib Goch a few days ago. There was interviews with Plas-y-Brenin
staff and Llanberris MR Service about the incident. The question was ask
by the reporter if signs (generally) should be placed warning of
'difficult' paths ahead. The example quoted was where the route up Crib
Goch leaves the Pyg Track. Sounds good in theory for members of the PC
brigade, but as one said during the interview that it would probably lead
more 'inexperience' walkers up to have a look .... then think, that looks
easy!

Its difficult, but whatever is suggested, there will always be
individuals/groups who venture onto the hills ill-prepared, no safety
equipment and no knowledge of expected weather changes. I see it often in
the Lake District

--
Sandy Saunders @ www.thewalkzone.co.uk
'Mountains or Mole Hills, summiting
still brings the same excitement!'

Human's are curious, you'll never stop them doing things they shouldn't. We
all feel for the parents of this 11 year old boy. But looking back when I
was 11, I remember a boy getting killed on the railway tracks, another
drowning in the nearby Jarrow Slake, a girl died of brain tumour, another
boy jumped off a bus hit a tree and fell under the rear wheels. I did daft
things like climbing electric pylons, crossing then then newly opened A19,
playing in and near ponds.

Is this nature's way of warning to others who learn from these unfortuate
experiences?

Slightly OT, I once worked in a factory. During a night shift a team member
slipped and fell off a platform. The Health and Safety team immediately
ordered the platform to be enclosed by fenced rails without consulting any
of the team. Result! From 1 minor accident a month, we then had 2 or 3
accidents per week as the fencing enclosed our space on the platform and we
started to trap ankles, fingers, hands, we couldn't pull the machine presses
in the smaller space so we strained legs, arms and backs.

Moral of the story (I think) is if you ban one thing, what's going to take
it's place? Is it not the case it's better the devil you know, then the
devil you don't know?

Jhimmy

Quoted message said:

Human's are curious, you'll never stop them doing things they shouldn't.
We all feel for the parents of this 11 year old boy. But looking back
when I was 11, I remember a boy getting killed on the railway tracks,
another drowning in the nearby Jarrow Slake, a girl died of brain tumour,
another boy jumped off a bus hit a tree and fell under the rear wheels. I
did daft things like climbing electric pylons, crossing then then newly
opened A19, playing in and near ponds.

We have all been there, doing things which seemed a challenge and exciting,
BUT, there for the grace of god we survived to tell the tale! Sadley,
unlike that young lad!

Quoted message said:

Is this nature's way of warning to others who learn from these unfortuate
experiences?

I suppose the other sapect, well certainly in my younger days, there wasn't
no wher near as much media. We had no TV when I was a lad, a wireless but
very rarely the news, and the Wakefield Express and Morley Observer were
'very' local. So, many incident probably still happened, but only known
about in the close locality of the incident.

Quoted message said:

Slightly OT, I once worked in a factory. During a night shift a team
member slipped and fell off a platform. The Health and Safety team
immediately ordered the platform to be enclosed by fenced rails without
consulting any of the team. Result! From 1 minor accident a month, we then
had 2 or 3 accidents per week as the fencing enclosed our space on the
platform and we started to trap ankles, fingers, hands, we couldn't pull
the machine presses in the smaller space so we strained legs, arms and
backs.

I did an Industrial Safety Officers course in 1980, and that was a real 'eye
opener' regards some rather tight H&S laws.

Quoted message said:

Moral of the story (I think) is if you ban one thing, what's going to take
it's place? Is it not the case it's better the devil you know, then the
devil you don't know?

Agree. If we took the advice from all organisations, committees, government
departments and many others ........... life would be like living in a
cocoon with no access to the 'horrid' and 'dangerous' outside world!

--
Sandy Saunders @ www.thewalkzone.co.uk
'Mountains or Mole Hills, summiting
still brings the same excitement!'

Bitstring <[email hidden]>, from the
wonderful person Jhimmy <[email hidden]> said
<snip>

Quoted message said:

Is this nature's way of warning to others who learn from these unfortuate
experiences?

Yes.
Shortform (Quote Niven, Pournelle, & Barnes, iirc): 'Think of it as
evolution in action'.

--
GSV Three Minds in a Can
10,002 Km walked. 1,952 Km PROWs surveyed. 35.5% complete.

It always amuses me that at Colylum Bridge near Aviemore, there's a nice
cast iron sign that blandly states 'Public Path to Braemar by the Lairig
Ghru' without pointing out that it's 40Km through some of the roughest
country in the U.K.!

Jim Ford

"Jim Ford" <[email hidden]> schreef in bericht
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

It always amuses me that at Colylum Bridge near Aviemore, there's a nice
cast iron sign that blandly states 'Public Path to Braemar by the Lairig
Ghru' without pointing out that it's 40Km through some of the roughest
country in the U.K.!

And I loved it ! Despite the difficult circumstances (I even loved these :-)

http://www.theosphotos.fotopic.net/p45825495.html

--
"Beannachd leibh"

Theo
www.theosphotos.fotopic.net

Jim Ford said:

It always amuses me that at Colylum Bridge near Aviemore, there's a nice
cast iron sign that blandly states 'Public Path to Braemar by the Lairig
Ghru' without pointing out that it's 40Km through some of the roughest
country in the U.K.!

There are some Scottish Rights of Way Society signs however that do
state that the route is through remote country and you should be able
to complete your intended journey unaided.
--
Phil Cook, last hill: Geal Charn above Glen Markie
http://www.p-t-cook.freeserve.co.uk/Oct07/wh11.htm

Theo said:

"Jim Ford" <[email hidden]> schreef in bericht
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

It always amuses me that at Colylum Bridge near Aviemore, there's a nice
cast iron sign that blandly states 'Public Path to Braemar by the Lairig
Ghru' without pointing out that it's 40Km through some of the roughest
country in the U.K.!

And I loved it ! Despite the difficult circumstances (I even loved these :-)

http://www.theosphotos.fotopic.net/p45825495.html

Here's a photo I took from Breariach this year:

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/james.ford60/Glen_Dee_Small.jpg

Facing South down the Lairig Ghru/Glen Dee. Ben Macdui on left, Carn a'
Maim in middle and Devil's Point and slopes of Cair Toul on right.

Jim Ford

Jim Ford said:

It always amuses me that at Colylum Bridge near Aviemore, there's a nice
cast iron sign that blandly states 'Public Path to Braemar by the Lairig
Ghru' without pointing out that it's 40Km through some of the roughest
country in the U.K.!

Jim Ford

Some signs advise very risky action. On the steepest bit of road in Cheddar
Gorge, there's a sign: 'Cyclists are advised to dismount' - I'm usually
doing 25 - 30mph just there, so I tend not to dismount.

Of course, taking a lightweight apprentice on to an exposed ridge on a v.
windy day is Darwinian...
--
Peter.
You don't understand Newton's Third Law of Motion?
It's not rocket science, you know.

sandy saunders said:

Yes, it was on Radio 4 news program 'PM', tonight, about placing
warnings after 11 year old Liam Costello (see BBC link for story
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/north_west/7066690.stm) fell to his
death from Crib Goch a few days ago. There was interviews with
Plas-y-Brenin staff and Llanberris MR Service about the incident. The
question was ask by the reporter if signs (generally) should be placed
warning of 'difficult' paths ahead. The example quoted was where the
route up Crib Goch leaves the Pyg Track. Sounds good in theory for
members of the PC brigade, but as one said during the interview that it
would probably lead more 'inexperience' walkers up to have a look ....
then think, that looks easy!

Its difficult, but whatever is suggested, there will always be
individuals/groups who venture onto the hills ill-prepared, no safety
equipment and no knowledge of expected weather changes. I see it often
in the Lake District

From the BBC article:

"Bad weather and poor visibility had made it difficult for the
helicopter to reach him on the mountain on Friday."

This sounds to me like a situation where a family didn't prepare
properly, went on the hill in bad weather without the experience and/or
equipment to deal with it.

Sad as the situation may be this to me would be similar to putting the
kid behind the wheel of a car and asking him to drive on a busy motorway
and then people complaining that the motorway was dangerous and that we
should reduce the speed limit to 20mph.

It's probably not PC or a popular opinion but in cases like this I
firmly believe that the parents of this kid should be held answerable
for what happened and not the area they were walking in!

"Jim Ford" <[email hidden]> schreef in bericht
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Theo said:

"Jim Ford" <[email hidden]> schreef in bericht
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

It always amuses me that at Colylum Bridge near Aviemore, there's a nice
cast iron sign that blandly states 'Public Path to Braemar by the Lairig
Ghru' without pointing out that it's 40Km through some of the roughest
country in the U.K.!

And I loved it ! Despite the difficult circumstances (I even loved these
:-)

http://www.theosphotos.fotopic.net/p45825495.html

Here's a photo I took from Breariach this year:

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/james.ford60/Glen_Dee_Small.jpg

Facing South down the Lairig Ghru/Glen Dee. Ben Macdui on left, Carn a'
Maim in middle and Devil's Point and slopes of Cair Toul on right.

I see you had awfull weather. Terrible place to be ;-)

--
"Beannachd leibh"

Theo
www.theosphotos.fotopic.net

Theo said:

Quoted message said:

Here's a photo I took from Breariach this year:

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/james.ford60/Glen_Dee_Small.jpg

Facing South down the Lairig Ghru/Glen Dee. Ben Macdui on left, Carn a'
Maim in middle and Devil's Point and slopes of Cair Toul on right.

I see you had awfull weather. Terrible place to be ;-)

It _was_ aweful when I came back, South to North a couple of weeks
later. I got soaked!

I know what you mean by the boggy part near the Corrour Bothy bridge. It
really is dire and the struggle hardly makes it worth while. I was going
to have lunch in the Corrour, but I abandoned the idea and had it by
Clach nan Teiler (sp?)

Jim Ford

Quoted message said:

It's probably not PC or a popular opinion but in cases like this I firmly
believe that the parents of this kid should be held answerable for what
happened and not the area they were walking in!

Yes, I am sure there are those who would jump up-and-down at such a
suggestion .... but I agree entirely with what you say!

--
Sandy Saunders @ www.thewalkzone.co.uk
'Mountains or Mole Hills, summiting
still brings the same excitement!'

The loss of any 11year old is tragic and my sympathy goes to the family.
However the loss of personal liability for one's own actions and safety
would be completely catastophic! We must shun any or all such attempts to
protect us from ourselves .... at this rate it will be time to move to
France earlier. "Health and Safety Nazis" are a disease that doesn't seem to
blight that country

Martin

--
Remove allspam for effective email

"sandy saunders" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Yes, it was on Radio 4 news program 'PM', tonight, about placing warnings
after 11 year old Liam Costello (see BBC link for story
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/north_west/7066690.stm) fell to his death
from Crib Goch a few days ago. There was interviews with Plas-y-Brenin
staff and Llanberris MR Service about the incident. The question was ask
by the reporter if signs (generally) should be placed warning of
'difficult' paths ahead. The example quoted was where the route up Crib
Goch leaves the Pyg Track. Sounds good in theory for members of the PC
brigade, but as one said during the interview that it would probably lead
more 'inexperience' walkers up to have a look .... then think, that looks
easy!

Its difficult, but whatever is suggested, there will always be
individuals/groups who venture onto the hills ill-prepared, no safety
equipment and no knowledge of expected weather changes. I see it often in
the Lake District

--
Sandy Saunders @ www.thewalkzone.co.uk
'Mountains or Mole Hills, summiting
still brings the same excitement!'

<SNIP>

Quoted message said:

This sounds to me like a situation where a family didn't prepare properly,
went on the hill in bad weather without the experience and/or equipment to
deal with it.

Sad as the situation may be this to me would be similar to putting the kid
behind the wheel of a car and asking him to drive on a busy motorway and
then people complaining that the motorway was dangerous and that we should
reduce the speed limit to 20mph.

It's probably not PC or a popular opinion but in cases like this I firmly
believe that the parents of this kid should be held answerable for what
happened and not the area they were walking in!

Do you think magazine's have a duty not to over glamorise grade 1 and 2
scambles? Trail and TGO are constantly encouraging people to climb at grade
1, yet I've seen many totally ill-prepared. How many times have you read how
easy it was, exciting etc. But when you start grade 1, you really are
starting a dangerous area of hill walking. Grib Goch in a very very hard
grade 1 that requires commitment. There is one place that is frightening
(the crag climb part) no matter how many hand holds are there.

I recently guided a work colleague up Sharp Edge, Blencathra. I pointed out
the many people who follow the path bypassing the main ridge and told him
it's dangerous as it leads to a blind end. In many respects he had read
Trail's report of Sharp Edge, in reality he was very tired at the top (he
was unfit!) and I persuded him not to go down Halls Ridge, which he agreed
later was the right decision.

I was a bit amused by his inexperience (everyone starts from the same
level!) as he must have read a fair few magazines, he had brought 2
extremely warm jackets for the short walk, I only had a wicking tee-shirt,
fleece top and thin (£20) windproof. He said he had a down jacket to walk in
for the winter - he looked suprised when I told him they're not for walking
in, he'd roast and dehydrate himself to death.

Jhimmy