Re: What really is Anti-semitism

On 01 Mar 2004 23:50:50 GMT, [email hidden] (DEBBEE1023)

Quoted message said:

<< Actually I suspect she shares some of Debbee's and Jan's opinion of
Jews. Sad that. >>

Gosh, Rich, can you tell me why some people of a certain religious group were
chanting trashy words in front of a theatre showing "The Passion"?

I don't know.

Quoted message said:

Yep, sad, that.....some of these people at the theatre were yelling bigotry at
the top of their lungs with regard to the film......wouldn't it have been just
better not to call attention to themselves, and let it go, and allow Gibson to
have freedom of expression?

Why cannot the protesters express their opinions?? You seem to only be
interested in protecting the speech of those with whom you agree.

Aloha,

Rich

Quoted message said:

"If you're gonna walk on thin ice, you may as well dance." (Jessie Winchester).

-------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------

The best defense to logic is ignorance

<<
Why cannot the protesters express their opinions?? You seem to only be
interested in protecting the speech of those with whom you agree.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Wow.....you don't get it...why are those protestors protesting way too much
about this film? What do you suppose is in this film that they are all so
worried about?

I don't care that they are protesting, but I do find it amusing, that they are
protesting this film in particular....

"If you're gonna walk on thin ice, you may as well dance." (Jessie Winchester).

On 02 Mar 2004 03:06:59 GMT, [email hidden] (DEBBEE1023)

Quoted message said:

<<
Why cannot the protesters express their opinions?? You seem to only be
interested in protecting the speech of those with whom you agree.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Wow.....you don't get it...why are those protestors protesting way too much
about this film?

I don't know. Why don't you ask them. Maybe they don't like the fact
that Gibson is making millions by exploiting the crucifixion of
Christ. Gibson is a marketing genius. Maybe he hired the protesters to
stir up more controversy. You know, the more controversy the more
sales.

Quoted message said:

What do you suppose is in this film that they are all so
worried about?

I don't know. See above. I have not seen the film nor do I plan to.

Quoted message said:

I don't care that they are protesting, but I do find it amusing, that they are
protesting this film in particular....

Why do you find it amusing?? I find it curious that millions of
dollars are being spent by people to watch some actor reenact the
beating, torture and crucifixion of Jesus Christ. From what I hear
the violence is very graphic and unrelenting. I have no interest in
seeing this.

Aloha,

Rich

-------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------

The best defense to logic is ignorance

<< I don't know. Why don't you ask them. Maybe they don't like the fact
that Gibson is making millions by exploiting the crucifixion of
Christ. Gibson is a marketing genius. Maybe he hired the protesters to
stir up more controversy. You know, the more controversy the more
sales. >>
I think you might enjoy and understand what I am trying to say here, from a
Rabbi himself..
http://1stholistic.com/Reading/prose/A2004/liv_why-mel-owes-one-to-the-je
ws.htm

On 02 Mar 2004 03:18:27 GMT, [email hidden] (DEBBEE1023)

Quoted message said:

<< I don't know. Why don't you ask them. Maybe they don't like the fact
that Gibson is making millions by exploiting the crucifixion of
Christ. Gibson is a marketing genius. Maybe he hired the protesters to
stir up more controversy. You know, the more controversy the more
sales. >>
I think you might enjoy and understand what I am trying to say here, from a
Rabbi himself..

You asked a question Debbee.Now you are suggesting that you were
trying to say something and you cannot even put it in your own words.

Why don't you, instead of posting a link, try to say in your own words
what you are trying to say. This is after all a discussion group. Are
you aware of the difficulty that you have in communicating to others?

YOu ask a question why protesters are protesting the film. Then you
post some article for me to understand what you are trying to say. I
hope that you communicate a bit better in your personal life than you
do here.

Aloha,

Rich

Quoted message said:

-------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------

The best defense to logic is ignorance

"DEBBEE1023" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

<<
Why cannot the protesters express their opinions?? You seem to only be
interested in protecting the speech of those with whom you agree.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Wow.....you don't get it...why are those protestors protesting way too

much

Quoted message said:

about this film? What do you suppose is in this film that they are all so
worried about?

I don't care that they are protesting, but I do find it amusing, that they

are

Quoted message said:

protesting this film in particular....

===================
I don't know if I understand the protesters completely (we don't seem to
have protesters in our area to talk with). I think they may be reacting to
a preconceived fear that they may be looked upon in a negative light because
of the film. I certainly have not observed that from anyone who has seen
the movie. It was not about them. It was about the Passion (suffering)
which Jesus endured for all of our sins. I do hope that the protesters come
to understand that 'resentment' is not what people come away with. More a
deeper sense of peace.......

Coleah

"Coleah" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:9mX0c.437684$I06.4939924@attbi_s01...

Quoted message said:

"DEBBEE1023" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

<<
Why cannot the protesters express their opinions?? You seem to only be
interested in protecting the speech of those with whom you agree.

Quoted message said:

>

Wow.....you don't get it...why are those protestors protesting way too

much

Quoted message said:

about this film? What do you suppose is in this film that they are all

so

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

worried about?

I don't care that they are protesting, but I do find it amusing, that

they

Quoted message said:

are

Quoted message said:

protesting this film in particular....

===================
I don't know if I understand the protesters completely (we don't seem to
have protesters in our area to talk with). I think they may be reacting

to

Quoted message said:

a preconceived fear that they may be looked upon in a negative light

because

Quoted message said:

of the film. I certainly have not observed that from anyone who has seen
the movie. It was not about them. It was about the Passion (suffering)
which Jesus endured for all of our sins. I do hope that the protesters

come

Quoted message said:

to understand that 'resentment' is not what people come away with. More a
deeper sense of peace.......

Coleah

Not about "them"?! The Jews in this movie are portrayed as hateful,
sadistic, and cruel in just about every scene. I can't see how watching this
splatter-flick can endow anyone with a "deeper sense of peace."

--Rich

Rich Shewmaker said:

"Coleah" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:9mX0c.437684$I06.4939924@attbi_s01...

Quoted message said:

It was about the Passion (suffering)
which Jesus endured for all of our sins. I do hope that the protesters

come

Quoted message said:

to understand that 'resentment' is not what people come away with. More a
deeper sense of peace.......

Coleah

Not about "them"?! The Jews in this movie are portrayed as hateful,
sadistic, and cruel in just about every scene. I can't see how watching this
splatter-flick can endow anyone with a "deeper sense of peace."

--Rich

I have not seen the movie nor care to. Are ALL the Jews in the movie
shown to be hateful, sadistic and cruel?? Or just some of the Jews??

In any case there are movies about WWII that show the Germans to be
sadistic, cruel in nearly every scene. Does this mean that the movies
are anti-German??

I think it important to understand that we cannot generalize from the
behavior of a few people to a group as a whole.

That being said I suspect that this movie, based upon what I have
read, may serve to inflame those who already are anti-semitic. However
I question whether it will cause those who are not anti-semitic to
become anti-semitic.

For example someone like Debbee and Jan will watch the movie and it
will reinforce their anti-semitism (which they deny). However I
suspect that you Rich did not develop a hatred for Jews based upon
what you saw.

Aloha,

Rich

Quoted message said:

-------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------

The best defense to logic is ignorance

"Rich Shewmaker" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Coleah" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:9mX0c.437684$I06.4939924@attbi_s01...

Quoted message said:

"DEBBEE1023" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

<<
Why cannot the protesters express their opinions?? You seem to only be
interested in protecting the speech of those with whom you agree.
>>

Wow.....you don't get it...why are those protestors protesting way too

much

Quoted message said:

about this film? What do you suppose is in this film that they are

all

Quoted message said:

so

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

worried about?

I don't care that they are protesting, but I do find it amusing, that

they

Quoted message said:

are

Quoted message said:

protesting this film in particular....

===================
I don't know if I understand the protesters completely (we don't seem to
have protesters in our area to talk with). I think they may be reacting

to

Quoted message said:

a preconceived fear that they may be looked upon in a negative light

because

Quoted message said:

of the film. I certainly have not observed that from anyone who has

seen

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the movie. It was not about them. It was about the Passion (suffering)
which Jesus endured for all of our sins. I do hope that the protesters

come

Quoted message said:

to understand that 'resentment' is not what people come away with. More

a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

deeper sense of peace.......

Coleah

=====================

Quoted message said:

Not about "them"?! The Jews in this movie are portrayed as hateful,
sadistic, and cruel in just about every scene. I can't see how watching

this

Quoted message said:

splatter-flick can endow anyone with a "deeper sense of peace."

--Rich

=================================

Yes, Mr. Shewmaker, there were Jews portrayed in the movie, but no, the
movie was not a focus about 'them'. It is focused on Jesus. When I say a
"deeper sense of peace", I really mean that. The suffering Jesus went
through was in payment of our sins. For me that was one of the messages I
'more deeply felt' after seeing the movie.

Jesus serves as a personal example in my life of forgiveness. Forgiveness
for others who have hurt or harmed me (not necessarily physically, but
mentally, emotionally, financially perhaps). When Jesus spoke the words,
"Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do," there was not one
ounce of hate, sadistic or cruel wishes from Jesus toward anyone involved
in his death. Not the Jews who encouraged the sentence, nor the Romans who
carried it out. He had no desire that they should be severely punished.
Just love for them. That's all.

Love at that level is the peace I spoke of.

During the movie the image of Satan moves rather silently about in different
scenes (like unto a floating darkness of soul/spirit). The provoker of
hate, sadism and cruel behavior. Like an invisible evil permeating the air.
Satan of course is not visually seen by people, but felt when the invisible
presence is there.

This 'evil' was not the Jewish or Roman people of the time. The evil was
Satan. Satan who took over their hearts and minds. That's what Jesus meant
by 'they know not what they do'. He knew it wasn't 'them' doing the hurtful
deeds; it was Satan playing with them. How did Satan get inside of them?
Our human 'opening' for Satan is our feeling of great fear and doubt.

The Jewish priests had much fear and doubt regarding Jesus, and then in
walked Satan. He planted the seed of evil about how to deal with this
'threat' to them. Alone each and every human being is pure love. That's
all. Pure love. Can't help it, we were born that way. But given an
opening, Satan will jump right on board to add evil to the mix of our fears
and doubts. Seems like one of the most used phrases in the Bible is 'fear
not'. Have we wondered why?

So, the reinforcement for me after seeing the movie was indeed a deeper
sense of peace (and love for mankind) inside. The kind of peace that
extends to all the beautiful people who may fear or doubt who I am. Just as
people did Jesus. I understand what that phrase, "they know not what they
do' means if people are overtaken (with fear or doubt) to write abrasive
responses, doubting questions or snide comments.

If I open my heart, mind and soul up for Jesus to occupy, it blocks me from
letting Satan's evil creep inside me. Thus preventing me from getting
sucked into nasty pissing matches with truly beautiful people. Being human,
and an ongoing 'practicing' Christian, I can and have gotten sucked in.
The lesson for me is to pull myself 'out' and get back to dealing with
peoples fears and doubts in a more loving way.

I am in no way a 'religious fanatic' as those with whom I have butted heads
with in the midst of an 'evil spirit' overtaking can attest to.

I hope this assists, Rich.
I would invite everyone to view the movie and share what they come away with
from the experience.

Best,
Coleah

On Tue, 02 Mar 2004 19:27:50 GMT, "Coleah" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

The suffering Jesus went
through was in payment of our sins.

Your opinion based upon faith and nothing else. There is no factual
basis to believe that Jesus died for our sins.

And if it is true that Jesus did die for our sins and if he did not
die for our sins then we would not be able to be saved, why was it bad
that he was killed in that way??? Seems to me that the entire basis of
Christianity is based upon the belief that Jesus died for our sins. If
he did not truly die for our sins then it makes no sense to be
Christian; may just as well be Jewish.

Quoted message said:

Jesus serves as a personal example in my life of forgiveness. Forgiveness
for others who have hurt or harmed me (not necessarily physically, but
mentally, emotionally, financially perhaps). When Jesus spoke the words,
"Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do," there was not one
ounce of hate, sadistic or cruel wishes from Jesus toward anyone involved
in his death. Not the Jews who encouraged the sentence, nor the Romans who
carried it out. He had no desire that they should be severely punished.
Just love for them. That's all.

So should we not prosecute people who are accused of murder and just
love them instead?? Lord have mercy!!

Quoted message said:

This 'evil' was not the Jewish or Roman people of the time. The evil was
Satan.

If you say that the evil was Satan then you take responsibility away
from the *humans* who perpetrated the action. I personally think that
people must take responsibility for their behavior and not rationalize
it by saying "The Devil made me do it"; free will and all that.

Quoted message said:

Satan who took over their hearts and minds. That's what Jesus meant
by 'they know not what they do'. He knew it wasn't 'them' doing the hurtful
deeds; it was Satan playing with them.

Maybe Jesus believed this. I sure don't.

Quoted message said:

How did Satan get inside of them?

Assumes facts not in evidence. There is no objective proof that Satan
exists. Satan may just be a creation of man to rationalize bad
behavior.

<snip Satanic references>

Aloha,

Rich

Quoted message said:

-------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------

The best defense to logic is ignorance

Quoted message said:

Subject: Re: What really is Anti-semitism
From: "Coleah" [email hidden]
Date: 3/2/2004 11:27 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id: <We51c.100999$Xp.434099@attbi_s54>

Very well said, Coleah.

From the interviews with Mel Gibson, I believe what you have described is his
focus.

History can't be changed, this is what happened, we know those who killed
Jesus were hateful, sadistic and cruel. I am going to see it on Sunday, I am
looking forward to it.

Jan

Quoted message said:

"Rich Shewmaker" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Coleah" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:9mX0c.437684$I06.4939924@attbi_s01...

Quoted message said:

"DEBBEE1023" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> <<
> Why cannot the protesters express their opinions?? You seem to only be
> interested in protecting the speech of those with whom you agree.
> >>
>
> Wow.....you don't get it...why are those protestors protesting way too
much
> about this film? What do you suppose is in this film that they are

all

Quoted message said:

so

Quoted message said:

> worried about?
>
> I don't care that they are protesting, but I do find it amusing, that

they

Quoted message said:

are
> protesting this film in particular....
===================
I don't know if I understand the protesters completely (we don't seem to
have protesters in our area to talk with). I think they may be reacting

to

Quoted message said:

a preconceived fear that they may be looked upon in a negative light

because

Quoted message said:

of the film. I certainly have not observed that from anyone who has

seen

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the movie. It was not about them. It was about the Passion (suffering)
which Jesus endured for all of our sins. I do hope that the protesters

come

Quoted message said:

to understand that 'resentment' is not what people come away with. More

a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

deeper sense of peace.......

Coleah

=====================

Quoted message said:

Not about "them"?! The Jews in this movie are portrayed as hateful,
sadistic, and cruel in just about every scene. I can't see how watching

this

Quoted message said:

splatter-flick can endow anyone with a "deeper sense of peace."

--Rich

=================================

Yes, Mr. Shewmaker, there were Jews portrayed in the movie, but no, the
movie was not a focus about 'them'. It is focused on Jesus. When I say a
"deeper sense of peace", I really mean that. The suffering Jesus went
through was in payment of our sins. For me that was one of the messages I
'more deeply felt' after seeing the movie.

Jesus serves as a personal example in my life of forgiveness. Forgiveness
for others who have hurt or harmed me (not necessarily physically, but
mentally, emotionally, financially perhaps). When Jesus spoke the words,
"Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do," there was not one
ounce of hate, sadistic or cruel wishes from Jesus toward anyone involved
in his death. Not the Jews who encouraged the sentence, nor the Romans who
carried it out. He had no desire that they should be severely punished.
Just love for them. That's all.

Love at that level is the peace I spoke of.

During the movie the image of Satan moves rather silently about in different
scenes (like unto a floating darkness of soul/spirit). The provoker of
hate, sadism and cruel behavior. Like an invisible evil permeating the air.
Satan of course is not visually seen by people, but felt when the invisible
presence is there.

This 'evil' was not the Jewish or Roman people of the time. The evil was
Satan. Satan who took over their hearts and minds. That's what Jesus meant
by 'they know not what they do'. He knew it wasn't 'them' doing the hurtful
deeds; it was Satan playing with them. How did Satan get inside of them?
Our human 'opening' for Satan is our feeling of great fear and doubt.

The Jewish priests had much fear and doubt regarding Jesus, and then in
walked Satan. He planted the seed of evil about how to deal with this
'threat' to them. Alone each and every human being is pure love. That's
all. Pure love. Can't help it, we were born that way. But given an
opening, Satan will jump right on board to add evil to the mix of our fears
and doubts. Seems like one of the most used phrases in the Bible is 'fear
not'. Have we wondered why?

So, the reinforcement for me after seeing the movie was indeed a deeper
sense of peace (and love for mankind) inside. The kind of peace that
extends to all the beautiful people who may fear or doubt who I am. Just as
people did Jesus. I understand what that phrase, "they know not what they
do' means if people are overtaken (with fear or doubt) to write abrasive
responses, doubting questions or snide comments.

If I open my heart, mind and soul up for Jesus to occupy, it blocks me from
letting Satan's evil creep inside me. Thus preventing me from getting
sucked into nasty pissing matches with truly beautiful people. Being human,
and an ongoing 'practicing' Christian, I can and have gotten sucked in.
The lesson for me is to pull myself 'out' and get back to dealing with
peoples fears and doubts in a more loving way.

I am in no way a 'religious fanatic' as those with whom I have butted heads
with in the midst of an 'evil spirit' overtaking can attest to.

I hope this assists, Rich.
I would invite everyone to view the movie and share what they come away with
from the experience.

Best,
Coleah

(Jan) said:

Quoted message said:

Subject: Re: What really is Anti-semitism
From: "Coleah" [email hidden]
Date: 3/2/2004 11:27 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id: <We51c.100999$Xp.434099@attbi_s54>

Very well said, Coleah.

From the interviews with Mel Gibson, I believe what you have described is his
focus.

History can't be changed, this is what happened, we know those who killed
Jesus were hateful, sadistic and cruel.

I guess Jan disagrees with Jesus who did not think that what they did
was hateful sadistic or cruel. After all Jesus told his father that
they don't know what they are doing.

YOu obviously did not even understand what Coleah said since you
don't agree with her that it was Satan who killed Jesus and was
hateful, sadistic and cruel and not the Jews nor Romans.

Jan's hatred of Jews gets in the way of her being able to not judge
others (Especially Jews).

So Jan apparently not only disagrees with Jesus about whether those
who killed Jesus were hateful, sadistic or cruel but also disagrees
with Jesus about the importance of not judging others.

Sad that.

Aloha,

Rich

-------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------

The best defense to logic is ignorance

"DEBBEE1023" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

<< Actually I suspect she shares some of Debbee's and Jan's opinion of
Jews. Sad that. >>

Gosh, Rich, can you tell me why some people of a certain religious group

were

Quoted message said:

chanting trashy words in front of a theatre showing "The Passion"?

Yep, sad, that.....some of these people at the theatre were yelling

bigotry at

Quoted message said:

the top of their lungs with regard to the film......wouldn't it have been

just

Quoted message said:

better not to call attention to themselves, and let it go,

No, it would not. The Rev. John T. Pawlikowski, President, The International
Council of Christians & Jews, and on staff at Catholic Theological Union,
Chicago, had this to say about this movie:

"Our team of Catholic scholars has agreed unanimously that the script
of Mel Gibson's film, The Passion of the Christ , presented one of
the most potentially anti-Jewish interpretations of Jesus' death that
we had encountered in our many years of constructive engagement in
the Christian -Jewish dialogue."

.. . .

"Particularly disturbing is the way Mr. Gibson has manipulated the use
of Matthew 27:25, the infamous blood libel charge through which the
Jewish leader supposedly called a curse upon all future generations
of Jews.

This text has been used over the centuries by Christians to keep Jews
miserable and marginal in society and at times even to justify their
death.Mr. Gibson included this questionable text in his original
script, deleted it because he claimed Jews would have his throat, put
it back and now suggests it may be removed in the final version. Such
insensitivity to how much suffering this text has caused Jews over
the centuries is deeply disturbing."

I do not expect you to "get it" but I post these words to refute your
bigotry.

and allow Gibson to

Quoted message said:

have freedom of expression?

Gibson has his freedom of expression, and the protestors are exercising
theirs. You have had this explained to you a gadzillion times. Are you
really that stupid? (Rhetorical question.)

<Rich.@.> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Rich Shewmaker said:

"Coleah" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:9mX0c.437684$I06.4939924@attbi_s01...

Quoted message said:

It was about the Passion (suffering)
which Jesus endured for all of our sins. I do hope that the protesters

come

Quoted message said:

to understand that 'resentment' is not what people come away with.

More a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

deeper sense of peace.......

Coleah

Not about "them"?! The Jews in this movie are portrayed as hateful,
sadistic, and cruel in just about every scene. I can't see how watching

this

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

splatter-flick can endow anyone with a "deeper sense of peace."

--Rich

I have not seen the movie nor care to. Are ALL the Jews in the movie
shown to be hateful, sadistic and cruel?? Or just some of the Jews??

In any case there are movies about WWII that show the Germans to be
sadistic, cruel in nearly every scene. Does this mean that the movies
are anti-German??

I think it important to understand that we cannot generalize from the
behavior of a few people to a group as a whole.

That being said I suspect that this movie, based upon what I have
read, may serve to inflame those who already are anti-semitic. However
I question whether it will cause those who are not anti-semitic to
become anti-semitic.

For example someone like Debbee and Jan will watch the movie and it
will reinforce their anti-semitism (which they deny). However I
suspect that you Rich did not develop a hatred for Jews based upon
what you saw.

Agreed. it will not convert, for now. However, it will fade into the
sub-consciousness of those who see it, and serve as an entry way for more
bigotry.

"Jan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Subject: Re: What really is Anti-semitism
From: "Coleah" [email hidden]
Date: 3/2/2004 11:27 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id: <We51c.100999$Xp.434099@attbi_s54>

Very well said, Coleah.

From the interviews with Mel Gibson, I believe what you have described is

his

Quoted message said:

focus.

History can't be changed, this is what happened, we know those who

killed

Quoted message said:

Jesus were hateful, sadistic and cruel. I am going to see it on Sunday, I

am

Quoted message said:

looking forward to it.

Jan

Correct, history isn't changed. I like to separate who people are from
behavior. We can behave in hateful, cruel ways at some point in time, but
that doesn't make us hateful people, per se.

Understand that in those days the Roman's crucified 250,000 Jewish people
for sometimes petty crimes. That's how Roman's kept them in line. Yep, the
Roman's used whips on them too and made a spectacles of them by hanging them
on crosses. The movie is not about the cruel behavior of the Roman's. The
behavior is portrayed, but not the focus.

The Jewish priests were threatened by Jesus. They too behaved in ways that
are deemed hateful, sadistic and cruel, by insisting upon having Jesus put
to death. They doubted Jesus, were filled with fear of what would happen
if Jesus lived and felt threatened to the point of not giving up until his
death was accomplished. Their behavior is also portrayed, but not the
focus.

The bottom line is there can be no hate for ancient Jewish people because
they behaved in a way that was foretold to be the destiny of Jesus. There
may be a few really numb-brained people who may hold the 'guilt of the
fathers pass on to the sons' theory, and wish to find a fault with modern
day Jewish people for ancient Jews behavior. Nonsense! I'm Norwegian and
certainly am not accountable for anything the Vikings did way back when.

I find all the conversations about Mel Gibson's movie interesting. Even the
confrontive manner in which Rich looks for objective proof of what
(subjective) faith is. (Yes, we love ya too, Rich, no matter how you
struggle with letting us in.)

Coleah

On Wed, 03 Mar 2004 01:20:10 GMT, "Coleah" <[email hidden]>
wrote:
Even the

Quoted message said:

confrontive manner in which Rich looks for objective proof of what
(subjective) faith is.

Confrontive?? I merely pointed out that what you seem to be asserting
as fact (Jesus dying for our your sins) is just a matter of faith.
There are millions of people who have different religious beliefs that
also are based purely on faith. I have no problem with people
believing what they want as long as they don't try to impose their
personal beliefs on others.

One problem that I see with some religions is that there is an
indoctrination based upon fear that inculcates certain beliefs. For
example if you are told that unless you believe such and such that
something bad will happen this is belief based upon fear. I wonder why
there is a need to use such tactics to convince people of certain
religious beliefs.

(Yes, we love ya too, Rich, no matter how you

Quoted message said:

struggle with letting us in.)

We?? I doubt that Jan loves me as her response to your responding to
me will likely demonstrate. Perhaps it is best to speak for yourself.

What do you mean "letting you in" ?? I interpret that comment as
suggesting that I ought to believe the way you believe. If I am wrong
please correct me.

Aloha,

Rich

Quoted message said:

Coleah

-------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------

The best defense to logic is ignorance

<Rich.@.> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Wed, 03 Mar 2004 01:20:10 GMT, "Coleah" <[email hidden]>
wrote:
Even the

Quoted message said:

confrontive manner in which Rich looks for objective proof of what
(subjective) faith is.

Confrontive?? I merely pointed out that what you seem to be asserting
as fact (Jesus dying for our your sins) is just a matter of faith.
There are millions of people who have different religious beliefs that
also are based purely on faith. I have no problem with people
believing what they want as long as they don't try to impose their
personal beliefs on others.

One problem that I see with some religions is that there is an
indoctrination based upon fear that inculcates certain beliefs. For
example if you are told that unless you believe such and such that
something bad will happen this is belief based upon fear. I wonder why
there is a need to use such tactics to convince people of certain
religious beliefs.

(Yes, we love ya too, Rich, no matter how you

Quoted message said:

struggle with letting us in.)

We?? I doubt that Jan loves me as her response to your responding to
me will likely demonstrate. Perhaps it is best to speak for yourself.

What do you mean "letting you in" ?? I interpret that comment as
suggesting that I ought to believe the way you believe. If I am wrong
please correct me.

Aloha,

Rich

Quoted message said:

Coleah

-------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------

The best defense to logic is ignorance

<Rich.@.> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Wed, 03 Mar 2004 01:20:10 GMT, "Coleah" <[email hidden]>
I have no problem with people
believing what they want as long as they don't try to impose their
personal beliefs on others.

I agree. The 'should' approach is what comes to mind
(telling people they 'should' rubs people the wrong way).

Quoted message said:

One problem that I see with some religions is that there is an
indoctrination based upon fear that inculcates certain beliefs. For
example if you are told that unless you believe such and such that
something bad will happen this is belief based upon fear. I wonder why
there is a need to use such tactics to convince people of certain
religious beliefs.

I guess different people are attracted to different approaches (flowing
creeks, if you will) heading toward the same vast, and mysterious ocean.

I'm not into hell-fire and brimstone type preaching. It reminds me in a way
of going through Marine Corps boot camp when I was 18. There was a purpose
to all the hollering in boot camp, but honestly if it had keep up after boot
camp, I probably would have deserted! Some people respond to that approach
and may actually enjoy it. I really enjoy learning about different
religions and their traditions.

Quoted message said:

(Yes, we love ya too, Rich, no matter how you

Quoted message said:

struggle with letting us in.)

We?? I doubt that Jan loves me as her response to your responding to
me will likely demonstrate. Perhaps it is best to speak for yourself.

Sorry, I didn't mean to speak for Jan. It was more a "Me, myself and I"
type we.
However, I suspect Jan adores the 'playful child' inside of everyone who
posts from that place in their heart.

Quoted message said:

What do you mean "letting you in" ?? I interpret that comment as
suggesting that I ought to believe the way you believe. If I am wrong
please correct me.

Good heavens yes, let me correct any confusion. "Shoulds and Oughts" are
not where I come from. Thank you so much for bringing that up. I respect
everyone's right to believe as they wish. Guess if anyone believed exactly
as I do about everything they would needed to have been inside my skin 24/7,
all my life. The 'letting me in' is an expression of not wanting to feel a
cold barrier/block between our communication as human beings.

Thanks again for your comments and questions.
Happy to clear some things up!

Coleah

On Wed, 03 Mar 2004 03:11:34 GMT, "Coleah" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

(Yes, we love ya too, Rich, no matter how you

Quoted message said:

struggle with letting us in.)

Quoted message said:

What do you mean "letting you in" ?? I interpret that comment as
suggesting that I ought to believe the way you believe. If I am wrong
please correct me.

The 'letting me in' is an expression of not wanting to feel a
cold barrier/block between our communication as human beings.

But you specifically said I was struggling to let you in.

You clearly seemed to be indicating that I was the one who was
creating some problem supported by your previous comment that I was
being confrontational.

It certainly was not my intention to block communication or set up a
cold barrier. It was my intention to be direct in my opinion.

It is ironic because I kind of interpreted that very comment of yours
as doing what you were suggesting that I was doing. I felt that you
were putting up a barrier to communicating in part since you chose to
respond not directly to me but in a reply to someone else as well as
making that somewhat cryptic remark.

Quoted message said:

Thanks again for your comments and questions.

My pleasure.

Aloha,

Rich

Quoted message said:

-------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------

The best defense to logic is ignorance