recumbent seating position

magpie83 said:

My point being, have we taken the recubent vehicle as far as
we ever can?!

Of course not, which is why there is active development going on all the
time. Just as mountain bikes, not held back by UCI regulation, have
changed and grown a great deal, so it is the case with recumbents.

Quoted message said:

I therefore think it is a good idea to look at the possibilities of
improving safety, powering, weather protection and any other problems
your research uncovers!

Indeed, but my point was that there are quite a few people doing this
for a living already. You want to look at more safety, power and
weather protection just look at the strides being made in Velomobile
design over the last few years.

Quoted message said:

So, lets all try and help out, and give andy our own experiences of
using these vehicles. As who better to ask about making improvements
than the people who use the vehicles!

Though same goes for anyone else designing and building the machines
already. They generally like constructive feedback because they can
develop their machines, and having an experience base to start with
they're in a better position to capitalise on it.

If I had a Great Idea to improve recumbent design I'd be talking to
existing builders with a history of innovation rather than trying to
solve all the problems they've already addressed before I can get my own
Big Idea up and rolling.

Yes, I'm being negative but I'm not doing it because I'm completely
satisfied with existing 'bents, I'm doing out because I see it as
realistic to point out that there's more to pushing back the design
envelope than a belief that you're a talented designer just casting
about for a field that interests you.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

"Peter Clinch" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Edward Dolan said:

Open any bike catalog and you will see literally several pages devoted to
bike saddles. Those Wal-Mart bikes with their comfort saddles on them are
an honest attempt to address a problem that you claim hardly exists.

I haven't made any such claim. I /have/ said that it /needn't/ exist, but
that's not the same thing. And it takes more to make a good comfortable
saddle than to write "comfort" on it. My uprights have traditional
leather saddles and they are considerably more comfortable than the
"comfort" saddles they replaced. They are not an "honest attempt" to
address any problem other than shifting high volumes of junk.

Those traditional leather saddles took forever to break in. But even after
broken in, they were not very comfortable. And they were always expensive as
hell. I had several Ideale saddles, but I eventually gave up on them.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The only numskulls in this scenario are the racers with their narrow
racing style saddles on their $2000. bikes.

Narrow racing saddles need not be misshapen or uncomfortable, though. Some
certainly are, but by no means all of them. But you don't appear to have
actually sat on any for at least 25 years, so you're not in a position to
know, just to think you do.

As long as you don't ride those racing bikes with the narrow racing saddles
for more than a few hours, you will maybe survive, but God help you if you
think you can ride them all day and not end up with a butt that is killing
you. Listen to Pete here and you will end up in his hospital with terminal
butt disease and he will be the medical officer in charge of your condition
(medical physics), after he is done cleaning the toilets of course.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Those Europeans who cycle a lot are most likely just commuting short
distances and not putting on many miles at all. A lot of this stuff only
kicks in on all day week long types of rides.

Most cyclists anywhere are just commuting short distances. Cyclists who
travel good distances will have a greater representation in a cycling
culture. Probably a lot more people doing serious track cycling per head
of population around Ghent than most places in the US, for example.

I am talking about spending entire days on the bike for a week at a time.
You apparently do not read at all well, although you are quick to criticize
others in this regard. By the way, kids are never on their bikes for very
long, so it is not nearly so important what kind of saddles they have on
their bikes.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The way to solve a problem is by designing out what is causing the
problem in the first place, not by so-called education. I blame the
designers of bike saddles for the discomfort and medical problems they
cause, not the end user.

A couple of paragraphs ago they were making an "honest attempt" to address
the problem, but now you're blaming them. I think a lot of riders would
be better off on 'bents for reasons of primary comfort, but if people
won't pay for them then they can't have them. That's hardly the fault of
the designers.

Bents more or less solved the saddle problem. That is because the problem
has been designed out with a seat instead of a saddle. Conventional bike
saddles need to have a wide cushioned rear platform. Those kind of saddles
do not look sleek, but then neither do our butts. Saddle designers need to
get real and forget about racers - and their confounded leather saddles,
racing style or any other style. Leather is for the birds.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I am waiting for you to explain your mysterious occupation.

There's nothing mysterious about an IT Officer, or at least not to anyone
who has let their brain work at some point since the 1980s.

Why is "it"capitalized? Does it stand for something? Maybe Industrial
Toilets?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

profession or is it like calling a janitor a sanitation engineer? Perhaps
you sweep the corridors in the hospital and empty the trash containers?

No, that would be a cleaner rather than an IT officer. Though you do seem
to be drawing a distinction between place of employment and job title now,
so that's progress of sorts. Well done! But your wilful ignorance and
stupidity is so pathetic it doesn't even rate as annoying, so you're
hardly going to goad me into losing my temper with you on current form.

I always appreciate comments from the peanut gallery. Sooner or later
someone else is going to tell me what it is that you do, but I assure you, I
am never going look it up.

Are you perhaps ashamed to let others know exactly what it is that you do.
There is nothing to be ashamed about with respect to cleaning toilets. They
are very necessary. People who live in countries that don't have them (the
flush type with all the associated plumbing) die by the millions of
infectious diseases. You are performing a useful function. Keep up the good
work!

--
Regards,

Ed Dolan - Minnesota

Edward Dolan said:

Those traditional leather saddles took forever to break in. But even after
broken in, they were not very comfortable.

Thus illustrating that you need the basic correct shape of saddle.
Brooks are the right shape for me so are comfortable straight out of the
box with no breaking in. If they're not the right shape for you then
breaking them in would just change them from terrible to merely bad.
You'd be better off with a different shape nearer your own, rather than
ignorantly write off all leather saddles as intolerable. Recumbent
seats are like this: I didn't find the Challenge one that well suited to
me, but the HP Velotechnik one is. So I ride on an HP Velotechnik seat.

Quoted message said:

And they were always expensive as hell.

Gosh. I didn't realise you could buy hell for £25. That's rather less
than a recumbent seat, of course.

Quoted message said:

I had several Ideale saddles, but I eventually gave up on them.

So you did see in that particular case that persistent daftness of
trying things that don't work for you again and again is a mistake.
Looks like you haven't always been as stupid as you appear to be now.

Quoted message said:

As long as you don't ride those racing bikes with the narrow racing saddles
for more than a few hours, you will maybe survive, but God help you if you
think you can ride them all day and not end up with a butt that is killing
you.

Do professional racers (the sort of people who ride such saddles for
long periods) have "butts that are killing them"? Not to my knowledge,
and the local roadies club don't seem to be that bothered by them either.

Quoted message said:

I am talking about spending entire days on the bike for a week at a time.

A bit like the pro racers mentioned above?

Quoted message said:

Bents more or less solved the saddle problem. That is because the problem
has been designed out with a seat instead of a saddle. Conventional bike
saddles need to have a wide cushioned rear platform.

It needs to be wide enough to support the sit bones, and no more. How
wide that is depends on the rider. As for cushioned, leather taughtly
stretched and a thin shorts pad has proven quite adequate for many,
many, many riders.
Seats need to be the right shape too: people who don't get saddle sore
on their own favourite saddles have suffered recumbent butt on seats
that didn't suit them.

Quoted message said:

do not look sleek, but then neither do our butts. Saddle designers needto
get real and forget about racers - and their confounded leather saddles,
racing style or any other style. Leather is for the birds.

You're just demonstrating you're clueless and ignorant again: Racers
don't particularly use leather saddles these days, traditional ones such
as Brooks are too heavy and many use synthetic materials these days.

Quoted message said:

Why is "it"capitalized? Does it stand for something? Maybe Industrial
Toilets?

Maybe, maybe not. I can't be bothered telling you, since you don't care
anyway and are only trying (and failing) to wind me up, and anyone who
does care can work it out for themselves.

Quoted message said:

I always appreciate comments from the peanut gallery. Sooner or later
someone else is going to tell me what it is that you do, but I assure you, I
am never going look it up.

I wonder why you might think I could give a damn whether you do or not?

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

"The Python Police" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Tom Sherman said:

Jon Meinecke said:

The chances of the lately perennial persona and self-
imagined master baiter of ARBR ever knowing what
it...

"Augh! Ohh! Don't say that word." - HEAD KNIGHT

Nee!

Quoted message said:

Ahem!

The Python Police

Call the Church Police!

http://williambader.com/python.html

Jon Meinecke

"Peter Clinch" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Edward Dolan said:

Those traditional leather saddles took forever to break in. But even after
broken in, they were not very comfortable.

Thus illustrating that you need the basic correct shape of saddle.
Brooks are the right shape for me so are comfortable straight out of the
box with no breaking in. If they're not the right shape for you then
breaking them in would just change them from terrible to merely bad.
You'd be better off with a different shape nearer your own, rather than
ignorantly write off all leather saddles as intolerable. Recumbent
seats are like this: I didn't find the Challenge one that well suited to
me, but the HP Velotechnik one is. So I ride on an HP Velotechnik seat.

To compare a saddle to a seat marks you as insane. Even very uncomfortable
seats can be made comfortable, whereas saddles can never be made
comfortable.

Quoted message said:

And they were always expensive as hell.

Gosh. I didn't realise you could buy hell for £25. That's rather less
than a recumbent seat, of course.

I was never able to get a leather saddle for less than $30. Other saddles at
the time were going for around $10. So leather saddles were three times more
expensive than most other saddles.

Quoted message said:

I had several Ideale saddles, but I eventually gave up on them.

So you did see in that particular case that persistent daftness of
trying things that don't work for you again and again is a mistake.
Looks like you haven't always been as stupid as you appear to be now.

I was always in hope of breaking the damn things in, but it never happened.
The only thing that broke was my butt.

Quoted message said:

As long as you don't ride those racing bikes with the narrow racing
saddles for more than a few hours, you will maybe survive, but God help
you if you think you can ride them all day and not end up with a butt that
is killing you.

Do professional racers (the sort of people who ride such saddles for
long periods) have "butts that are killing them"? Not to my knowledge,
and the local roadies club don't seem to be that bothered by them either.

I believe professional racers do have a lot of pain they suffer through with
those narrow racing type of saddles. Some of them end up in the hospital
because of it. But to compare an athlete like a professional bike racer to
the rest of us is perverse. Those fools are constantly training and they do
manage to get hard in all the right places. The rest of us never do.

Quoted message said:

I am talking about spending entire days on the bike for a week at a time.

A bit like the pro racers mentioned above?

See comment immediately above.

Quoted message said:

Bents more or less solved the saddle problem. That is because the problem
has been designed out with a seat instead of a saddle. Conventional bike
saddles need to have a wide cushioned rear platform.

It needs to be wide enough to support the sit bones, and no more. How
wide that is depends on the rider. As for cushioned, leather taughtly
stretched and a thin shorts pad has proven quite adequate for many,
many, many riders.
Seats need to be the right shape too: people who don't get saddle sore
on their own favourite saddles have suffered recumbent butt on seats
that didn't suit them.

Sore butt is a universal phenomenon with saddles. It is not with recumbent
seats.
[...]

Quoted message said:

Why is "it"capitalized? Does it stand for something? Maybe Industrial
Toilets?

Maybe, maybe not. I can't be bothered telling you, since you don't care
anyway and are only trying (and failing) to wind me up, and anyone who
does care can work it out for themselves.

Quoted message said:

I always appreciate comments from the peanut gallery. Sooner or later
someone else is going to tell me what it is that you do, but I assure you,
I am never going look it up.

I wonder why you might think I could give a damn whether you do or not?

As long as you keep sighing off with that signature of yours, I will have
many opportunities to poke fun at you. You keep on doing what you are doing
and I will do the same.

--
Regards,

Ed Dolan - Minnesota

"Peter Clinch" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

magpie83 said:

My point being, have we taken the recubent vehicle as far as
we ever can?!

Of course not, which is why there is active development going on all the
time. Just as mountain bikes, not held back by UCI regulation, have
changed and grown a great deal, so it is the case with recumbents.

It is all nothing but a fool's errand. No one with any intelligence would
spend any time designing bikes, let alone recumbent bikes. Only jerks and
nerds do this sort of thing. They are about on the level of kite designers.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I therefore think it is a good idea to look at the possibilities of
improving safety, powering, weather protection and any other problems
your research uncovers!

Indeed, but my point was that there are quite a few people doing this for
a living already. You want to look at more safety, power and weather
protection just look at the strides being made in Velomobile design over
the last few years.

Those contraptions have never yet gotten off the ground. They invariably
turn out to be nothing but rolling pieces of junk. And the morons who spend
time on this sort of nonsense want like maybe $10,000. for their humble
efforts.

Anyone who thinks velomobiles are ever going to go any place should check
himself into the asylum forthwith. You should not be running around lose in
society. You have a mental disease and it could be catching - to the
detriment of society as we know it. Please have some consideration for
others why don't you?

--
Regards,

Ed Dolan - Minnesota

Edward Dolan said:

To compare a saddle to a seat marks you as insane. Even very uncomfortable
seats can be made comfortable, whereas saddles can never be made
comfortable.

Not necessarily, and not necessarily. I know saddles can be reasonably
comfortable because I own several that are. Not as comfortable as the
seat on my 'bent, but comfortable enough to use. I have sat on seats
that are basically uncomfortable through being the wrong shape and size
for me.

Quoted message said:

I was never able to get a leather saddle for less than $30. Other saddles at
the time were going for around $10. So leather saddles were three times more
expensive than most other saddles.

You get what you pay for. Like paying more than that for a recumbent seat.

Quoted message said:

I was always in hope of breaking the damn things in, but it never happened.

If it's basically the wrong shape to start with that's an entirely
predictable outcome.

Quoted message said:

I believe professional racers do have a lot of pain they suffer through with
those narrow racing type of saddles. Some of them end up in the hospital
because of it. But to compare an athlete like a professional bike racer to
the rest of us is perverse.

To compare the rest of us to someone who lives on a bicycle the whole
time is also perverse.

Quoted message said:

Those fools are constantly training and they do
manage to get hard in all the right places. The rest of us never do.

The "rest of us" who use bikes a lot more than average are doing the
training though, simply by being on their bikes /if/ the saddle is
basically the right shape. This is not to say it's as comfortable as a
recumbent, but that's not the same as "will cause you medical problems".

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I am talking about spending entire days on the bike for a week at a time.

A bit like the pro racers mentioned above?
See comment immediately above.

Indeed.

Quoted message said:

Sore butt is a universal phenomenon with saddles. It is not with recumbent
seats.

But lots of people use saddles without getting a sore backside, and if
even one did it would disprove your "universal".

Quoted message said:

As long as you keep sighing off with that signature of yours, I will have
many opportunities to poke fun at you.

It seems you've missed about 8 years of opportunities to poke fun at it,
because that's how long I've been posting to Usenet and my signature has
remained pretty much the same over that period, and despite 8 years
frequent exposure it's generated little in the way of remark.

<comedy>Minnesota. My geography isn't good so I wonder if that's a
place, or just a euphemism for a butthead?</comedy> Ho ho.

Poke away, it doesn't really matter to me if you do or not since I don't
care what goes through your head in an attempt to emulate thought.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

"Edward Dolan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Here is the entire previous post so others will know what is under
discussion. If you are bent on improving things, maybe you could improve on
how you post. Try to follow the rules if that is not asking too much.

Oh, how i sink to my knees, and beg for your mercy. You clearly know
so much about everything.

Think i'm starting to see the type of person you are. Oh, i don't
know, you aren't jealous of people with imagination and a whole life
ahead of them are you?

If you would actually listen to the points i am trying to make, it's
that improvement no matter how small, is improvement all the same. And
seeing as you still have a 25 year old bike, i don't think you qualify
to comment on whether bikes do get redesigned annually, or at least,
bi-annually. Maybe we could club together for you, make a small
donation each, so you could replace your bike. Experience a taste of
the modern world you, no matter how much you hate, live in!

Well, being a fellow designer, rules are there to be broken, thats how
progress can be made. But being the thoughtful kind of person i am,
i'll make it nice and simple for you! (maybe i don't like the way the
'rules' work!)

Quoted message said:

Do not vacuum cleaners still use bags?

Yes, they do, my point is, they are not as effective as a bagless
machine. Pretty straight forward comment.

Quoted message said:

Bikes have not changed much in the past 25 years. The improvements you talk
about are only on the margin. They really don't amount to a hill of beans.
They are in the main just calculated to separate the consumer from his hard
earned dollar. The bike I was riding 25 years ago is just as good as any
bike today. The bike is not redesigned every year. It hasn't been redesigned
in 100 years. Just more of the same old same old. Nothing ever changes when
it comes to bikes.

What, you mean the 25 year old bike, with about 3 gears! If you are
lucky. Without the much more effective disc brake, without front and
rear suspension ( with, ohhhh, lets say 7 inches of travel at the
front, 5 at the back!) Yeah, you are right, bikes haven't changed
much. Redesign, also does not have to mean a complete overhaul, as
bicycle, has to have 2 wheels as the name suggests. But the
components, seating and other areas can be changed and adjusted.
Therefore, yes, they are redesigned every year. Take it your bike
doesn't get out much then, seeing as your steel frame should be coated
with a nice layer of rust. Or are you a fair wheather cyclist, in
which case, a big fat improvement to be made! A bicycle (of any sort)
which keeps your dry. You may want to look at the BMW C1 motorcycle,
http://www.canadiandriver.com/articles/cml/images/bmw_c1.jpg
not, completely revolutionary i agree, but different none the less.
But sticking a roof on a bike is not as straight forward as that, as
the centre of gravity is raised. Therefore, materials have to be
lighter, to keep it nice and low.
Adding a roof, also imroves the safety of the vehicle, acting as a
roll cage device. (the fact i have to diverse from the original
discussion i find saddening. But to explore the possibilties, and
opportunities involved in bicycle design, it has to be done. And also
to try and explain, that Andy, whom i referred to in my post (the guy
asking for our help, eddy) is not simply on a wild goose chase!

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The fact you mention cars being, 'an invention of the devil', backs up
my argument that should sufficient improvements be made, they could
replace the automobile, in our larger cities at least. Where the are
exempt from road tax, and London's newly implied entrance fee to the
city!

Hope springs eternal in the human breast!

Ohhhh, you agree on something!

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Yes, you are correct, vacuum cleaners still can use bags, well done on
that point. But i believe the point i was making (and you missed by a
huge margin) was that by removing the bag, and exploring new technolgy
we live in healthier environments, where are children will be less
prone to breathing difficulties, such as asthma! Also, using bags can
result in a loss of up to 70%, where as bagless cleaners, retain on
average 100%. Pretty good eh! The advantages of research.

Every vacuum cleaner I ever had was connected to a bag.

(yes, every vacuum cleaner you ever had! (defining word there 'had'😉
Your next one, if you venture into the real world, very probably won't
have a bag!

Exactly my point, you are scared of design and improvement! Perhaps,
with all that extra dust in your house, with the 70% loss of suction i
mentioned, you should purchase a nice shiny bike for each of your
family members. Swimming is also good at reducing the effects of
Asthma.
http://www.kerda.cz/images/cyklo/old_bicycle.jpg - one of these
perhaps!
no, ok
what about this? http://ucmmuseum.com/ucmprphotos2/oldbike.jpg , no,
your are difficult to please!

http://www.comparestoreprices.co.uk/images/ma/marin-01-hawk-hill.jpg ,
it's a hardtail tho, little rough through the pot holes!

Ahhhhh, this should do the job,
http://www.bikebike.co.uk/smsimg/13/m307_alpinetrail.jpg

Yeah, they never change. But, neither has the 'devils' automobile.
Presume thats what you think! Wrong again i'm afraid. Technology and
design is improving them even now. Yes, the concept remains, 4 wheels
blah blah blah, but materials used for the exterior are making cars
pedestrian and cycle friendly. Companies can't manufacture any old
shape they like, with sharp edges etc, because it would fail the
tests. Small change, but you may appreciate it, should the occasion
arise a vehicle ploughs into you or your family.

I could compile a huge list of areas in modern day life where change
is happening, often without people even noticing. Medical science,
materials, architecture, I'll stop now! Again this can be an aspect of
design. As people often do not appreciate change, as we can see. So
the transition from old to new, is often unnoticed by many.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Andy, may i suggest you look in other forums, where people are a
little less close-minded, and open for change!

I am not Andy and i should be capitalized since it is the personal pronoun.
I see lots of room for improvement in your posting form. Maybe you could
work on that more and not concern yourself so much with improving the rest
of the world.

Like i said above, Andy is the poor chap looking for helpful
contributions to his research. Thats why i started my post with your
name, eddy! (opps, small e again.

Quoted message said:

I don't give a tinker's damn about an open mind. As a matter of fact, I
rather appreciate a closed mind. That indicates to me that one has thought
about something and come to a conclusion. No, I think a closed mind suits me
much better since I have come to conclusions about most things under the
sun. Maybe someday if you live long enough, you will come to some
conclusions too and not be cursed with an open mind - and always to be
hoping for pie in the sky, oh magpie83.

That's fine, you keep your closed mind. And yes, through Andy's design
process he will have to come to conclusions, as otherwise he would
noever finish. but these 'conclusions' are always open for revision!
Should you have an accident on your 25 year old bike, the technology
and design that helps your recovery may finally be appreciated. And
should the same accident have happened when your bike was constructed
you will realise that change is good, and needed!

Quoted message said:

Now I am going to lie down and have a snooze. All this verbal combat has
exhausted me. My closed mind will soon be sound asleep and I will dream
about going fast on my 25 year old bike. When I arise refreshed from my
snooze, I will perhaps vacuum the rug with my 25 year old vacuum cleaner,
the one with a bag on it.

Tom Sherman <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

magpie83 said:

...
Perhaps, like Dyson himself concluded, there is a much more efficient
way of doing a job machines have been doing for years. Vacuum cleaners
used bags, this was the norm, and was never questioned. Look how wrong
we were!...

Yes, but bagless vacuum cleaners still suck! 🙂

Not sure whether your comment was sarcastic or not, so don't be
offended by reply!
Again, though the function is the same, the changes made allowed for a
much more efficient machine. Small change, but big results. Dyson has
certainly made enough money and attracted enough attention to his
design work.

Though, some of his changes were less successful,
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/950000/images/_954685_ballbarrow150.jpg&imgrefurl=http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/newsid_954000/954685.stm&h=180&w=150&sz=6&tbnid=GEXMQMZPAoAJ:&tbnh=96&tbnw=80&start=4&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dballbarrow%2Bdyson%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D

The ballbarrow for instance. But his drive for change has certainly
paid off!

"Peter Clinch" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Edward Dolan said:

To compare a saddle to a seat marks you as insane. Even very
uncomfortable seats can be made comfortable, whereas saddles can never be
made comfortable.

Not necessarily, and not necessarily. I know saddles can be reasonably
comfortable because I own several that are. Not as comfortable as the
seat on my 'bent, but comfortable enough to use. I have sat on seats that
are basically uncomfortable through being the wrong shape and size for me.

All you ever have to do with an uncomfortable seat is to layer in some very
high quality foam and you are in nirvana - provided you can get sufficient
lay back in the seat. You can pile on foam forever and still not get any
comfort with a saddle.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I was never able to get a leather saddle for less than $30. Other saddles
at the time were going for around $10. So leather saddles were three
times more expensive than most other saddles.

You get what you pay for. Like paying more than that for a recumbent
seat.

Recumbent seats are as expensive as they are because there is very little
demand for them like the recumbents they are a part of themselves. This
could all change drastically if recumbents ever became a mass market item.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I was always in hope of breaking the damn things in, but it never
happened.

If it's basically the wrong shape to start with that's an entirely
predictable outcome.

Yes, there was never enough width in the rear of the seat for my sit bones.
Also, the rear of the seat would roll off too abruptly.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I believe professional racers do have a lot of pain they suffer through
with those narrow racing type of saddles. Some of them end up in the
hospital because of it. But to compare an athlete like a professional
bike racer to the rest of us is perverse.

To compare the rest of us to someone who lives on a bicycle the whole time
is also perverse.

Quoted message said:

Those fools are constantly training and they do manage to get hard in
all the right places. The rest of us never do.

The "rest of us" who use bikes a lot more than average are doing the
training though, simply by being on their bikes /if/ the saddle is
basically the right shape. This is not to say it's as comfortable as a
recumbent, but that's not the same as "will cause you medical problems".

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I am talking about spending entire days on the bike for a week at a time.

A bit like the pro racers mentioned above?
See comment immediately above.

Indeed.

Quoted message said:

Sore butt is a universal phenomenon with saddles. It is not with
recumbent seats.

But lots of people use saddles without getting a sore backside, and if
even one did it would disprove your "universal".

You should investigate these guys who do the RAAM. The ones who do it on a
recumbent sitting on a seat do not have any problems with pain and injury.
The ones who do it on uprights sitting on a saddle have nothing but.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

As long as you keep sighing off with that signature of yours, I will have
many opportunities to poke fun at you.

It seems you've missed about 8 years of opportunities to poke fun at it,
because that's how long I've been posting to Usenet and my signature has
remained pretty much the same over that period, and despite 8 years
frequent exposure it's generated little in the way of remark.

I have only been on ARBR for a little over a year, but I don't recall seeing
your idiotic signature until very recently. I think I would have remembered
it because stupidly like yours always attracts my attention.

Quoted message said:

<comedy>Minnesota. My geography isn't good so I wonder if that's a place,
or just a euphemism for a butthead?</comedy> Ho ho.

Minnesota is about as large as your little island kingdom of Great Britain.
Most Americans simply do not realize how very small (and crowded) European
nations are. And most Europeans do not realize what a truly grand country
the US is. All the nations of the future, in order to count in world
affairs, will have to be continental size nations. Europe is maybe getting
it's act together just in the nick of time. Maybe some day Britain will be
part of the United States of Europe and hence the equal of mighty America.
In the meantime, try to know your place and act accordingly.

--
Regards,

Ed Dolan - Minnesota

Quoted message said:

Indeed, but my point was that there are quite a few people doing this
for a living already. You want to look at more safety, power and
weather protection just look at the strides being made in Velomobile
design over the last few years.

I presume, his reason for persuing this project, is that, as it is a
university project the brief will be predetermined. And Andy has
choosen this specific area to look at.
I agree, there are companies who are vastly experienced in these
areas, but the same goes for automobile design. Which is the course i
am undertaking. Obviously i am completely inexperienced in the area,
but current designers will have to be replaced at some point in the
near future. So, with Andy research and learning now, the future for
recumbent cycles will be all the more exciting, and will continue to
develop. Everyone has to start somewhere, similar to the people that
are doing it now. With out research, Andy would be unable to uncover
existing problems, and may have a new solution to the ones already
being approached. So, if Andy can gain the users opinions, perhaps he
can uncover an area that requires improvement. But perhaps he can't,
we'll just have to wait and see!

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

So, lets all try and help out, and give andy our own experiences of
using these vehicles. As who better to ask about making improvements
than the people who use the vehicles!

Though same goes for anyone else designing and building the machines
already. They generally like constructive feedback because they can
develop their machines, and having an experience base to start with
they're in a better position to capitalise on it.

Again, a fair point, but I don't think Andy is planning on starting a
business with his idea, it will purely be to gain the marks for
university! But, perhaps he can sell it to a manufacturer! When you
consider students studying history, geography, english etc, there are
always people vastly more experienced, but it is these people we learn
from. New teachers are always needed for us to progress, but at least,
Andy is studying to improve the world, not learn about stuff we
already know about and have written books on.

Quoted message said:

If I had a Great Idea to improve recumbent design I'd be talking to
existing builders with a history of innovation rather than trying to
solve all the problems they've already addressed before I can get my own
Big Idea up and rolling.

The problem with telling manufacturers your initial ideas, is that
they may not have thought about your idea. And before you know it,
it's designed and built and you don't have a leg to stand on! Due to
patents costing thousands of pounds.

Quoted message said:

Yes, I'm being negative but I'm not doing it because I'm completely
satisfied with existing 'bents, I'm doing out because I see it as
realistic to point out that there's more to pushing back the design
envelope than a belief that you're a talented designer just casting
about for a field that interests you.

I'm sure andy will appreciate you are aware problems are there.
Perhaps you could suggest some of them, help him along and improve
existing recumbent machines.
Negative opinions arn't bad, as long as they are constructive, unlike
Edward whatever his called! But i don't think we should judge whether
Andy is wasting his time, as we don't know his full reasons for
undertaking the task. BUt give our experiences of life on a recumbent.

Thanks

"Dave Larrington" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

magpie83 said:

Perhaps, like Dyson himself concluded, there is a much more efficient
way of doing a job machines have been doing for years. Vacuum cleaners
used bags, this was the norm, and was never questioned. Look how wrong
we were! My point being, have we taken the recubent vehicle as far as
we ever can?! Or are we just at a happy medium, like we were with our
vacuum cleaners!

I have a Dyson and while it's quite capable of sucking up the carpet, it's a
pain to empty coz the dust, fluff and general skog goes everywhere except
into the bin. I shall be unlikely to buy another unless they've improved
the emptying mechanism (or I can get a cheap one via a friend who works for
them...)

Fair point, but the machines remain more effecient at clearing up
dust. Perhaps the next generation ones will be better, who knows!
And if you have any ideas, perhaps, you could suggest to dyson or
start your own design project to change them. Make the perfect
machine.
Thats good constuctive comments that Andy needs, though not for vacuum
cleaners obviously. Thanks

"magpie83" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Edward Dolan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Here is the entire previous post so others will know what is under
discussion. If you are bent on improving things, maybe you could improve
on
how you post. Try to follow the rules if that is not asking too much.

Oh, how i sink to my knees, and beg for your mercy. You clearly know
so much about everything.

Well ... yes, but don't over do it. Others on this group will go insane with
jealousy. They can't stand for anyone to praise me.

Quoted message said:

Think i'm starting to see the type of person you are. Oh, i don't
know, you aren't jealous of people with imagination and a whole life
ahead of them are you?

No, they will end up the same way every one ends up who comes into this
world - bitter and disappointed and finally, dead. That is the perfect
solution for what ails all of us - death. That is what we deserve and that
is what we get. Praise the Lord! And remember, God loves you - never forget
that priceless bit of wisdom!

Quoted message said:

If you would actually listen to the points i am trying to make, it's
that improvement no matter how small, is improvement all the same. And
seeing as you still have a 25 year old bike, i don't think you qualify
to comment on whether bikes do get redesigned annually, or at least,
bi-annually. Maybe we could club together for you, make a small
donation each, so you could replace your bike. Experience a taste of
the modern world you, no matter how much you hate, live in!

The only improvements I am interested in at the moment are your posts. I
sure would like to see some improvement there for instance. How am I suppose
to take someone seriously who does not know enough to capitalize the
personal pronoun I. Why don't you see if you can make some small
improvements in your posts before you undertake to improve the rest of the
world.
[...]

Quoted message said:

Yeah, they never change. But, neither has the 'devils' automobile.
Presume thats what you think! Wrong again i'm afraid. Technology and
design is improving them even now. Yes, the concept remains, 4 wheels
blah blah blah, but materials used for the exterior are making cars
pedestrian and cycle friendly. Companies can't manufacture any old
shape they like, with sharp edges etc, because it would fail the
tests. Small change, but you may appreciate it, should the occasion
arise a vehicle ploughs into you or your family.

More people are being killed in car accidents than ever before. How about
designing some safety into things.

Quoted message said:

I could compile a huge list of areas in modern day life where change
is happening, often without people even noticing. Medical science,
materials, architecture, I'll stop now! Again this can be an aspect of
design. As people often do not appreciate change, as we can see. So
the transition from old to new, is often unnoticed by many.

Are people happier today than they were 100 years ago? I doubt it despite
all the "improving" and "change" going on.
[...]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I don't give a tinker's damn about an open mind. As a matter of fact, I
rather appreciate a closed mind. That indicates to me that one has
thought
about something and come to a conclusion. No, I think a closed mind suits
me
much better since I have come to conclusions about most things under the
sun. Maybe someday if you live long enough, you will come to some
conclusions too and not be cursed with an open mind - and always to be
hoping for pie in the sky, oh magpie83.

That's fine, you keep your closed mind. And yes, through Andy's design
process he will have to come to conclusions, as otherwise he would
noever finish. but these 'conclusions' are always open for revision!
Should you have an accident on your 25 year old bike, the technology
and design that helps your recovery may finally be appreciated. And
should the same accident have happened when your bike was constructed
you will realise that change is good, and needed!

I hate all change. There ought to be a law against it. Every change that I
have undergone in the past 50 years has been for the worst.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Now I am going to lie down and have a snooze. All this verbal combat has
exhausted me. My closed mind will soon be sound asleep and I will dream
about going fast on my 25 year old bike. When I arise refreshed from my
snooze, I will perhaps vacuum the rug with my 25 year old vacuum cleaner,
the one with a bag on it.

--
Regards,

Ed Dolan - Minnesota

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden]
says...

[snip]

Quoted message said:

More people are being killed in car accidents than ever before. How about
designing some safety into things.

Ed, can you please cite a source to back up this assertion? It is my
understanding that more people are surviving auto accidents than ever
before. From personal experience, I know that the average severity of
accident-related injuries is considerably less than, say, thirty years
ago.

[snip]

Quoted message said:

I hate all change. There ought to be a law against it. Every change that I
have undergone in the past 50 years has been for the worst.

Were you and I to be enjoying the medicine of 100 years ago (predating
nuclear medicine and medical physics), we'd both be dead. Of course I
can't speak for a Minnesota hermit, but there can't be enough change
such as seat belts, "Jaws of Life," air bags, Magnetic Resonance Imaging
and defibrillators.

I refuse to believe that a genuinely sharp mind truly would hate all
change. You're not a closet Ptolemist, are you Ed? ;->

My 2 cents. Have a nice weekend, all.

Cheers,
-tom

Tom Borgman said:

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden]
says...

Quoted message said:

More people are being killed in car accidents than ever before. How about
designing some safety into things.

Ed, can you please cite a source to back up this assertion? It is my
understanding that more people are surviving auto accidents than ever
before.

Of course, the two statements are not mutually exclusive if more
'accidents' than ever before are occurring. I think you should
establish whether you're talking about absolute numbers, rate per car,
rate per population, rate per mile, or whatever.

regards, Ian SMith
--
|\ /| no .sig
|o o|
|/ \|

Quoted message said:

It is my
understanding that more people are surviving auto accidents than ever
before.

There might indeed be some basis in fact for Ed's assertation.

Is it possible that, while accident fatalities might be decreasing for
individual accidents, the sheer number of new drivers on the road times the
number of accidents they generate, might well result in higher "death tolls"
than ever before?

James S. Prine

"No Moore Lies"

http://hometown.aol.com/jsprine/

"Tom Borgman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden]
says...

[snip]

Quoted message said:

More people are being killed in car accidents than ever before. How about
designing some safety into things.

Ed, can you please cite a source to back up this assertion? It is my
understanding that more people are surviving auto accidents than ever
before. From personal experience, I know that the average severity of
accident-related injuries is considerably less than, say, thirty years
ago.

All I know is that more and more people are being killed in toto than ever
before. I don't give a damn about per mile driven or any of that sort of
nonsense. I just see the bodies piling up. We might all be better off if the
private automobile had never been invented.
[...]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I hate all change. There ought to be a law against it. Every change that
I
have undergone in the past 50 years has been for the worst.

Were you and I to be enjoying the medicine of 100 years ago (predating
nuclear medicine and medical physics), we'd both be dead. Of course I
can't speak for a Minnesota hermit, but there can't be enough change
such as seat belts, "Jaws of Life," air bags, Magnetic Resonance Imaging
and defibrillators.

Yes, you are quite correct that I would now be moldering in my grave if it
weren't for the miracles of modern medicine. But I do not worship change.
Some of the very best things in life never change and we should cherish
those things even if it makes us look a bit old fashion. The young don't
understand this, but if they live long enough they will some day. Thus spake
Zarathustra.

Quoted message said:

I refuse to believe that a genuinely sharp mind truly would hate all
change. You're not a closet Ptolemist, are you Ed? ;->

Tom, I use to know this stuff if my long lost youth, but I now have only a
dim recollection of what the Ptolemists were all about. In any event, it is
an esoteric reference which no one on this group will have the slightest
clue about. Trust me on this!

--
Regards,

Ed Dolan - Minnesota

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Oh, how i sink to my knees, and beg for your mercy. You clearly know
so much about everything.

Well ... yes, but don't over do it. Others on this group will go insane with
jealousy. They can't stand for anyone to praise me.

Ha, you stupid old fool! You actually thought i was 'praising you!
It's could sarcasm!

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

No, they will end up the same way every one ends up who comes into this
world - bitter and disappointed and finally, dead. That is the perfect
solution for what ails all of us - death. That is what we deserve and that
is what we get. Praise the Lord! And remember, God loves you - never forget
that priceless bit of wisdom!

Don't you dare force your own religion and beliefs on me, or anyone
else for that matter. They should be kept to yourself.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The only improvements I am interested in at the moment are your posts. I
sure would like to see some improvement there for instance. How am I suppose
to take someone seriously who does not know enough to capitalize the
personal pronoun I. Why don't you see if you can make some small
improvements in your posts before you undertake to improve the rest of the
world.

You really are incredibly slow! Andy and anyone else gets a capital
letter, they are deservng of one. You however, eddy, don't! PLus it
clearly pisses you off no end, which makes my day! Oh the joy.

Quoted message said:

[...]

Quoted message said:

More people are being killed in car accidents than ever before. How about
designing some safety into things.

Reasons more people maybe killed. More people driving, instantly
increases the figures. Think about it! Population size has increased
since last time you step out during the 70's! Also, drivers sitting
too close to steering wheels. Impact from airbags kills you, if the
occupant is too close. That, therefore is the users own fault. Or lack
of wearing seat belts. Think u'll find i was talking about pedestrian
safety anyway. And it's my view that if you step out in front of a
car, well, it's a pretty stupid thing to do. Even if i do it myself
tomorrow!

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Are people happier today than they were 100 years ago? I doubt it despite
all the "improving" and "change" going on.

Seeing as you ask. My opinion is that most people today weren't alive
100 years ago! Idiot! And i think if you showed those people from that
era, they would envy the products we have today! Biggest factor that
seems to cause unrest and unhappiness nowadays is war! Nothing to do
with the design of a recumbent cycle. So, think we can put that to
rest!

Quoted message said:

[...]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

That's fine, you keep your closed mind. And yes, through Andy's design
process he will have to come to conclusions, as otherwise he would
noever finish. but these 'conclusions' are always open for revision!
Should you have an accident on your 25 year old bike, the technology
and design that helps your recovery may finally be appreciated. And
should the same accident have happened when your bike was constructed
you will realise that change is good, and needed!

I hate all change. There ought to be a law against it. Every change that I
have undergone in the past 50 years has been for the worst.

Thats fine, it appears i'm not forcing you to like change! But it's a
vehicle we are debating, so get off your high horse! Seems the change
you most look forward to is when you finally end up 6ft under. Don't
think any of us here will regret that change.

And your person pronoun, well, that requires to finger presses!
Laziness maybe, or perhaps 'i' have lots of other things to interest
me, and like to fit it into one day.

Which is why i won't be replying to your posts anymore! As, well, you
are a lost cause, and there are people out there who actually need
help in they're lives. Perhaps us, designers, could go and help design
a product to improve the life of the disabled. Oh change,
improvements! All a waste of time. You fool, eddy

"magpie83" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
[...]

Quoted message said:

I'm sure andy will appreciate you are aware problems are there.
Perhaps you could suggest some of them, help him along and improve
existing recumbent machines.
Negative opinions arn't bad, as long as they are constructive, unlike
Edward whatever his called! But i don't think we should judge whether
Andy is wasting his time, as we don't know his full reasons for
undertaking the task. BUt give our experiences of life on a recumbent.

Andy is most definitely wasting his time - as you are too with your posts to
this newsgroup. But that is not so bad I guess. Wasting time is what we
humans do best. Most of us like to get paid for wasting our time of course
(it is called working at a job), but I admit I do admire folks who waste
their time and do not get paid for it. I have been doing this all of my
life, so I am an expert on the subject.

Negative criticism is absolutely essential for any project that is going to
have a chance of success. Enthusiasts like you lead discovers and inventors
to end up shooting themselves in the head when things don't work out,
whereas I provide the necessary caution. Go slow young man!

My best advice is never to do anything; instead, lie down and have a nice
snooze. Maybe by the time you wake up your fantasy will have dissipated and
you can get back to what we humans do best, eating and fornicating like all
the rest of animal creation. The benefit of these two activities is that
they are essential, one for your own survival and the other for the survival
of the species.

--
Regards,

Ed Dolan - Minnesota