Removing a stuck adjustable cup (Bottom Bracket)

Brian,

Filing some flats is not a bad idea, you may want to put the flats into
a vise and use the frame as a lever. The problem with most pin spanners
is that they are not very long and you can't get enough leverage to
move a stuck cup. As a matter of fact, if you know you can get a
replacement cup and there's enough sticking out for the vise to grab
hold of, dont even bother filing flats, just clamp the vise down onto
it and turn the frame. Using some good penetrating oil is highly
recommended as you have nothing to lose by trying this. Wish I could be
more help, good luck.

Perry

Hello Brian

Sounds like the cup is history, anyway. Why not use a lg. Vise Grip w/
a rounded jaw, or a channel lock w/ good sharp teeth. You could also
try a hammer & center punch to drive it ccw. If you ruin it, no big
deal. Even Campy cups aren't very expensive. I always coat threads that
have the potential to be difficult to loosen w/ anti seize.

Good luck, John

Brian Huntley said:

There's no way a pin-wrench is going to be able to budge the supposedly
non-fixed cup (ie left side) on my all-weather commuter bike. I'm
fairly sure the fixed-cup is also immobile, and this is the time of
year I usually replace the bearings (it's an old cup-and-cone style
bb.)

What are my options? I'm thinking I could possible file some flats on
it and apply the big wrench, then replace it, but I seem to recall
these are really hard steel. The pin-wrench holes don't seem to be
deep enough to allow me to stick a punch in one and whale on it with a
mallet. Would a torch help? (It's steel-on-steel, so I'm guessing not.)
Some super-duper penetrating oil?

I'd try the penetrating oil and a 1/8" pin punch after the oil had had
some time to work. Unless it's severely corroded, you shouldn't have
any trouble at all with the *adjustable* cup. Fixed cups, on the other
hand...

Mark

Brian Huntley said:

What are my options? I'm thinking I could possible file some flats on
it and apply the big wrench, then replace it, but I seem to recall
these are really hard steel. The pin-wrench holes don't seem to be
deep enough to allow me to stick a punch in one and whale on it with a
mallet. Would a torch help? (It's steel-on-steel, so I'm guessing not.)
Some super-duper penetrating oil?

The fixed cup has flats, right? Try clamping those in a vise
and rotating the frame to get the fixed cup out. Then use
Sheldon's method with a bolt, nut and washers to get the
adjustable cup out. It's on his webpage: basically the
idea is to put a bolt+washer through the cup from the inside,
clamp a nut+washer from the outside, then turn either the
nut or bolt so that it simultaneously tightens the sandwich
and tries to turn the cup in the direction you want.

In article
<[email hidden]>,

CobraRGuy said:

Brian,

Filing some flats is not a bad idea, you may want to put the flats into
a vise and use the frame as a lever. The problem with most pin spanners
is that they are not very long and you can't get enough leverage to
move a stuck cup. As a matter of fact, if you know you can get a
replacement cup and there's enough sticking out for the vise to grab
hold of, dont even bother filing flats, just clamp the vise down onto
it and turn the frame. Using some good penetrating oil is highly
recommended as you have nothing to lose by trying this. Wish I could be
more help, good luck.

Apply the penetrating lubricant the day before you do the
extraction; it can make the important difference.

--
Michael Press

email hidden said:

Brian Huntley said:

What are my options? I'm thinking I could possible file some flats on
it and apply the big wrench, then replace it, but I seem to recall
these are really hard steel. The pin-wrench holes don't seem to be
deep enough to allow me to stick a punch in one and whale on it with a
mallet. Would a torch help? (It's steel-on-steel, so I'm guessing not.)
Some super-duper penetrating oil?

The fixed cup has flats, right? Try clamping those in a vise
and rotating the frame to get the fixed cup out. Then use
Sheldon's method with a bolt, nut and washers to get the
adjustable cup out. It's on his webpage: basically the
idea is to put a bolt+washer through the cup from the inside,
clamp a nut+washer from the outside, then turn either the
nut or bolt so that it simultaneously tightens the sandwich
and tries to turn the cup in the direction you want.

Here's an alternative method for removing the fixed cup. Assuming you
have a fixed cup wrench, the object is securing the wrench so that it
can't slip off the cup when torque is applied. I do this with a large
washer, a length of pipe, and a crank bolt and washer. A 1 7/8" OD
washer is just large enough to secure my Sugino fixed cup wrench. The
washer you buy at your local hardware store might have to have the ID
ground out to slip over the spindle. I then slip on a 1" length of
7/8" OD pipe (a piece I trimmed off the end of a steel MTB handlebar
years ago) followed by the crank bolt and washer. Tighten down this
sandwich to secure the wrench in place.

You can then wail away on the wrench with a rubber mallet secure in
the knowledge it won't slip. Remember that the fixed cup is (most
likely) left-hand threaded.

With the fixed cup removed you can then pull out the spindle and
bearings, allowing you to use the "Sheldon Method". See:
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/tooltips/bbcups.html

Of course all this assumes you have a cup-and-cone BB. If you're
dealing with a cartridge BB things get different, but thinking about
it my method would also work for removing a cartridge body.

jeverett3<AT>earthlink<DOT>net http://home.earthlink.net/~jeverett3

Brian Huntley said:

There's no way a pin-wrench is going to be able to budge the supposedly
non-fixed cup (ie left side) on my all-weather commuter bike. I'm
fairly sure the fixed-cup is also immobile, and this is the time of
year I usually replace the bearings (it's an old cup-and-cone style
bb.)

What are my options? I'm thinking I could possible file some flats on
it and apply the big wrench, then replace it, but I seem to recall
these are really hard steel. The pin-wrench holes don't seem to be
deep enough to allow me to stick a punch in one and whale on it with a
mallet. Would a torch help? (It's steel-on-steel, so I'm guessing not.)
Some super-duper penetrating oil?

This is probably this frame's last year (I've said that before), but I
would like to make it last until June at least.

Usually adjustable cups aren't too hard to remove after you get the
lockring off. I've had good luck with the "punch and mallet" method. If
you need penetrating oil, try "PB Blaster" -- handy stuff to keep around.

John Everett said:

Here's an alternative method for removing the fixed cup. Assuming you
have a fixed cup wrench, the object is securing the wrench so that it
can't slip off the cup when torque is applied. I do this with a large
washer, a length of pipe, and a crank bolt and washer. A 1 7/8" OD
washer is just large enough to secure my Sugino fixed cup wrench. The
washer you buy at your local hardware store might have to have the ID
ground out to slip over the spindle. I then slip on a 1" length of
7/8" OD pipe (a piece I trimmed off the end of a steel MTB handlebar
years ago) followed by the crank bolt and washer. Tighten down this
sandwich to secure the wrench in place.

You can then wail away on the wrench with a rubber mallet secure in
the knowledge it won't slip. Remember that the fixed cup is (most
likely) left-hand threaded.

That's a good point. I try to do that when using a fixed cup
wrench, as I don't have a bench vise to clamp the cup in.
I use a 2" fender washer, and between the wrench and the
fender washer, a roll of electrical tape - serves the same
purpose as your 1" length of handlebar. Obviously the
core of the tape roll has to be <2" in diameter.

John Everett said:

Here's an alternative method for removing the fixed cup. Assuming you
have a fixed cup wrench, the object is securing the wrench so that it
can't slip off the cup when torque is applied. I do this with a large
washer, a length of pipe, and a crank bolt and washer. A 1 7/8" OD
washer is just large enough to secure my Sugino fixed cup wrench. The
washer you buy at your local hardware store might have to have the ID
ground out to slip over the spindle. I then slip on a 1" length of
7/8" OD pipe (a piece I trimmed off the end of a steel MTB handlebar
years ago) followed by the crank bolt and washer. Tighten down this
sandwich to secure the wrench in place.

You can then wail away on the wrench with a rubber mallet secure in
the knowledge it won't slip. Remember that the fixed cup is (most
likely) left-hand threaded.

That's a good point. I try to do that when using a fixed cup
wrench, as I don't have a bench vise to clamp the cup in.
I use a 2" fender washer, and between the wrench and the
fender washer, a roll of electrical tape - serves the same
purpose as your 1" length of handlebar. Obviously the
core of the tape roll has to be <2" in diameter.

Brian Huntley said:

There's no way a pin-wrench is going to be able to budge the supposedly
non-fixed cup (ie left side) on my all-weather commuter bike. I'm
fairly sure the fixed-cup is also immobile, and this is the time of
year I usually replace the bearings (it's an old cup-and-cone style
bb.)

What are my options? I'm thinking I could possible file some flats on
it and apply the big wrench, then replace it, but I seem to recall
these are really hard steel. The pin-wrench holes don't seem to be
deep enough to allow me to stick a punch in one and whale on it with a
mallet. Would a torch help? (It's steel-on-steel, so I'm guessing not.)
Some super-duper penetrating oil?

This is probably this frame's last year (I've said that before), but I
would like to make it last until June at least.

Well, the last time I had this problem, I used a plumber's 1/2" pipe
nipple extractor, on the right hand thread fixed cup of an
Italian-threaded frame. That, after other wrenches, etc., mentioned
above (C Record Aluminum cup that had been serviced several times).
Worked great, using a large adjustable open-end wrench to turn the
extractor. The cup was already history, so no loss. The extractor says
"#7,USA LM Drill, 17/32, Warning Wear Safety Goggles <g> 01. But maybe
your BB is worth more than the frame? --D-y

I said:

Of course all this assumes you have a cup-and-cone BB. If you're
dealing with a cartridge BB things get different, but thinking about
it my method would also work for removing a cartridge body.

Silly, silly me. Of course it won't work for removing a cartridge body
since the "fixed cup" side has no wrench flats. Then again, since the
OP was trying to remove an adjustable cup we're obviously dealing with
an old-timie c&c BB.

jeverett3<AT>earthlink<DOT>net http://home.earthlink.net/~jeverett3

Quoted message said:

The fixed cup has flats, right? Try clamping those in a vise
and rotating the frame to get the fixed cup out. Then use
Sheldon's method with a bolt, nut and washers to get the
adjustable cup out. It's on his webpage: basically the
idea is to put a bolt+washer through the cup from the inside,
clamp a nut+washer from the outside, then turn either the
nut or bolt so that it simultaneously tightens the sandwich
and tries to turn the cup in the direction you want.

Nope - the fixed cup is one of those dreadful Shimano ones with the
internal teeth that look like they're part of a cartridge BB but
aren't. When I had the BB replaced by my LBS a few years ago, they were
unable to remove it, and I don't have that tool anyway.

I've used Sheldon's method (with success) on other frames.

Like I said, this is an older frame that's been used as a year-round
commuter in Toronto for about 5 years by me and was a few years old
when I got it. With lots of salt on the roads, it's not in the best of
shape.

Looks like I'll go with the filing of flats - thanks to all who replied.

Quoted message said:

The fixed cup has flats, right? Try clamping those in a vise
and rotating the frame to get the fixed cup out. Then use
Sheldon's method with a bolt, nut and washers to get the
adjustable cup out.

[this is a repost via google groups, as it didn't seem to appear
earlier]

Alas, it's one of those horrid Shimano ones with the internal teeth
that looks like a cartridge BB but isn't, so there are no flats.
Besides, my LBS already failed to get the fixed cup out years ago -
winter commuting on salted streets does take its toll.

I've used Sheldon's method before (on another frame) and it does work
well, indeed.

I'll try the penetrating oil, punch, and mallet next. If that fails,
I'll grind some flats. The poor frame's served me well, and it's almost
retirement age.

Quoted message said:

The fixed cup has flats, right? Try clamping those in a vise
and rotating the frame to get the fixed cup out. Then use
Sheldon's method with a bolt, nut and washers to get the
adjustable cup out.

[this is a repost via google groups, as it didn't seem to appear
earlier]

Alas, it's one of those horrid Shimano ones with the internal teeth
that looks like a cartridge BB but isn't, so there are no flats.
Besides, my LBS already failed to get the fixed cup out years ago -
winter commuting on salted streets does take its toll.

I've used Sheldon's method before (on another frame) and it does work
well, indeed.

I'll try the penetrating oil, punch, and mallet next. If that fails,
I'll grind some flats. The poor frame's served me well, and it's almost
retirement age.

Peter Cole said:

Usually adjustable cups aren't too hard to remove after you get the
lockring off. I've had good luck with the "punch and mallet" method. If
you need penetrating oil, try "PB Blaster" -- handy stuff to keep around.

I've found Aero Kroil or regular Kroil to be the most effective
penetrating oil in my experience. YMMV but it seems appropriate in this
situation.

Brian Huntley said:

There's no way a pin-wrench is going to be able to budge the supposedly
non-fixed cup (ie left side) on my all-weather commuter bike. I'm
fairly sure the fixed-cup is also immobile, and this is the time of
year I usually replace the bearings (it's an old cup-and-cone style
bb.)

What are my options? I'm thinking I could possible file some flats on
it and apply the big wrench, then replace it, but I seem to recall
these are really hard steel. The pin-wrench holes don't seem to be
deep enough to allow me to stick a punch in one and whale on it with a
mallet. Would a torch help? (It's steel-on-steel, so I'm guessing not.)
Some super-duper penetrating oil?

This is probably this frame's last year (I've said that before), but I
would like to make it last until June at least.

You're on the right path. When we confront rusted steel cups
in steel frames, we remove the lockring, grind flats on the
cup with a disc grinder, fasten a 30 inch adjustable wrench
to the cup with a tool that bolts to the spindle and pull
hard. The vibration from the disc grinder seems to help.

BB cups are good steel and hardened - a file isn't much help.

You run the risk of nicking into the frame when you cut the
flats but except for aesthetic purposes that probably
doesn't matter. Before grinding the left cup, do try a long
wrench bolted to the right cup. For some reason the left
cups installed without grease are usually matched with a
right cup that was never properly tightened.

I did once weld a long piece of steel to a cup but it was
more trouble than it was worth.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971