Requirements and Usage of Amino Acids - four questions

Discussion in 'Food and nutrition' started by cguttman, Dec 4, 2005.

  1. cguttman

    cguttman Guest

    Hello Nutrition community,

    I have questions regarding "Requirements and Usage of Amino Acids".

    I have not found a list of a recommended daily intake of essential and
    non-essential amino acids per day (not just the general recommendation
    of protein intake). Does anyone know if there is such a list on the web?

    A second question is: What happens in our body to all the amino acids
    that do not make a complete protein? Are they still used for something
    in our body. For example, if you eat beans, they might contain 10 grams
    of protein per 100 grams, but because they don't make a complete protein
    and might have a biological value of 30, does that mean that only 3grams
    of protein is actually used by your body? And what happens to the
    remaining 7grams of protein (amino acids that cannot be combined)? Are
    they used in any way in your body or are they just discarded by your body?

    Regarding kidneys: Lets assume that your body discards the protein that
    do not contribute to a complete protein. I assume that excess protein is
    filtered by the kidney. Does that mean that the kidney has to filter out
    more protein, if one consumes incomplete proteins?

    Finally, I like to learn more about how to combine certain plant foods
    in order to obtain complete proteins. While I have read much about
    general recommendations about how to combine certain plant food on the
    net: e.g., chickpeas and sesame seeds, peanut butter and whole wheat
    bread, etc., I have not found information about which ratio of these
    foods make a complete protein. For example, How many chickpeas should be
    combined with sesame seeds? 100grams to 20grams? 50grams 50grams? Does
    anyone know these ratios?

    I appreciate help a lot, as I have spent much time on finding answers
    and wasn't successful!

    cheers, Chris
     
    Tags:


  2. TC

    TC Guest

    Just eat meat, fish and eggs and save yourself all the worrying. You'll
    feel better and be healthier.

    TC


    cguttman wrote:
    > Hello Nutrition community,
    >
    > I have questions regarding "Requirements and Usage of Amino Acids".
    >
    > I have not found a list of a recommended daily intake of essential and
    > non-essential amino acids per day (not just the general recommendation
    > of protein intake). Does anyone know if there is such a list on the web?
    >
    > A second question is: What happens in our body to all the amino acids
    > that do not make a complete protein? Are they still used for something
    > in our body. For example, if you eat beans, they might contain 10 grams
    > of protein per 100 grams, but because they don't make a complete protein
    > and might have a biological value of 30, does that mean that only 3grams
    > of protein is actually used by your body? And what happens to the
    > remaining 7grams of protein (amino acids that cannot be combined)? Are
    > they used in any way in your body or are they just discarded by your body?
    >
    > Regarding kidneys: Lets assume that your body discards the protein that
    > do not contribute to a complete protein. I assume that excess protein is
    > filtered by the kidney. Does that mean that the kidney has to filter out
    > more protein, if one consumes incomplete proteins?
    >
    > Finally, I like to learn more about how to combine certain plant foods
    > in order to obtain complete proteins. While I have read much about
    > general recommendations about how to combine certain plant food on the
    > net: e.g., chickpeas and sesame seeds, peanut butter and whole wheat
    > bread, etc., I have not found information about which ratio of these
    > foods make a complete protein. For example, How many chickpeas should be
    > combined with sesame seeds? 100grams to 20grams? 50grams 50grams? Does
    > anyone know these ratios?
    >
    > I appreciate help a lot, as I have spent much time on finding answers
    > and wasn't successful!
    >
    > cheers, Chris
     
  3. cguttman

    cguttman Guest

    I am eating meat, eggs and fish. I need this protein, because I do
    sports every day. But I think I eat too much animal meat at the moment
    (typical day: 1 egg in the morning, 250 of mince, 2 steaks in evening).
    Thus I was wondering if I can combine certain foods to produce a
    complete protein. I have actually found the recommended daily intake for
    the different amino acids, so I guess, I have to look at individual food
    items and then calculate how they match and provide a high biological value?

    Chris

    TC wrote:

    > Just eat meat, fish and eggs and save yourself all the worrying. You'll
    > feel better and be healthier.
    >
    > TC
    >
    >
    > cguttman wrote:
    >
    >>Hello Nutrition community,
    >>
    >>I have questions regarding "Requirements and Usage of Amino Acids".
    >>
    >>I have not found a list of a recommended daily intake of essential and
    >>non-essential amino acids per day (not just the general recommendation
    >>of protein intake). Does anyone know if there is such a list on the web?
    >>
    >>A second question is: What happens in our body to all the amino acids
    >>that do not make a complete protein? Are they still used for something
    >>in our body. For example, if you eat beans, they might contain 10 grams
    >>of protein per 100 grams, but because they don't make a complete protein
    >>and might have a biological value of 30, does that mean that only 3grams
    >>of protein is actually used by your body? And what happens to the
    >>remaining 7grams of protein (amino acids that cannot be combined)? Are
    >>they used in any way in your body or are they just discarded by your body?
    >>
    >>Regarding kidneys: Lets assume that your body discards the protein that
    >>do not contribute to a complete protein. I assume that excess protein is
    >>filtered by the kidney. Does that mean that the kidney has to filter out
    >>more protein, if one consumes incomplete proteins?
    >>
    >>Finally, I like to learn more about how to combine certain plant foods
    >>in order to obtain complete proteins. While I have read much about
    >>general recommendations about how to combine certain plant food on the
    >>net: e.g., chickpeas and sesame seeds, peanut butter and whole wheat
    >>bread, etc., I have not found information about which ratio of these
    >>foods make a complete protein. For example, How many chickpeas should be
    >>combined with sesame seeds? 100grams to 20grams? 50grams 50grams? Does
    >>anyone know these ratios?
    >>
    >>I appreciate help a lot, as I have spent much time on finding answers
    >>and wasn't successful!
    >>
    >>cheers, Chris

    >
    >
     
  4. DZ

    DZ Guest

    cguttman <[email protected]> wrote:
    > I am eating meat, eggs and fish. I need this protein, because I do
    > sports every day. But I think I eat too much animal meat at the
    > moment (typical day: 1 egg in the morning, 250 of mince, 2 steaks in
    > evening). Thus I was wondering if I can combine certain foods to
    > produce a complete protein. I have actually found the recommended
    > daily intake for the different amino acids, so I guess, I have to
    > look at individual food items and then calculate how they match and
    > provide a high biological value?


    My own intake is not higher than RDA with 1 h/day exercise (resistance
    training and running). You don't need excess protein unless you're an
    elite athlete competing in sports. I maintain fitness level that is
    higher than average, e.g. see me here -
    http://home.nc.rr.com/netsink/DZMuscleUp.wmv

    Couple of refs:

    Resistance training requirements:
    "In highly trained powerlifters and bodybuilders, in whom muscle mass
    is high but stable, it is unlikely that their dietary protein
    requirements are elevated much more than those of a sedentary person";
    and "All things considered, it is abundantly clear that any protein
    requirement set for strength-training athletes is of little relevance"
    (http://tinyurl.com/3jurp ; PMID: 15212752)

    Endurance training requirements:
    "It appears that low- and moderate-intensity endurance exercise does
    not affect dietary protein requirements... For the well- trained
    endurance athlete training 4 to 5 d/wk for longer than 60 min, there
    appears to be a very modest increase in dietary protein requirements"
    (http://tinyurl.com/3qafz ; PMID: 15212749)
     
  5. cguttman

    cguttman Guest

    Thanks DZ. This was helpful. Your video is impressive :) I am glad if I
    manage 10 chinups...

    I wonder if I should take on your advice (which is backed up by
    scientific evidence), because the authors of the sources that you
    attached admitted that determining the intake of protein for an athlete
    is (and remains) a difficult issue. ... Meaning that there are
    researchers who believe that the intake of protein is proportional to
    the exercise that you are doing.

    Having seen your video, I assume that you do not aim to gain any muscle?
    You try to maintain your fitness at the current level? Maybe it is an
    interesting hypothesis that if one aims to gain muscle the protein
    intake should be slightly higher when training with weights and
    resistance, so that muscle tissue can be build?

    Chris


    DZ wrote:
    > cguttman <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    >>I am eating meat, eggs and fish. I need this protein, because I do
    >>sports every day. But I think I eat too much animal meat at the
    >>moment (typical day: 1 egg in the morning, 250 of mince, 2 steaks in
    >>evening). Thus I was wondering if I can combine certain foods to
    >>produce a complete protein. I have actually found the recommended
    >>daily intake for the different amino acids, so I guess, I have to
    >>look at individual food items and then calculate how they match and
    >>provide a high biological value?

    >
    >
    > My own intake is not higher than RDA with 1 h/day exercise (resistance
    > training and running). You don't need excess protein unless you're an
    > elite athlete competing in sports. I maintain fitness level that is
    > higher than average, e.g. see me here -
    > http://home.nc.rr.com/netsink/DZMuscleUp.wmv
    >
    > Couple of refs:
    >
    > Resistance training requirements:
    > "In highly trained powerlifters and bodybuilders, in whom muscle mass
    > is high but stable, it is unlikely that their dietary protein
    > requirements are elevated much more than those of a sedentary person";
    > and "All things considered, it is abundantly clear that any protein
    > requirement set for strength-training athletes is of little relevance"
    > (http://tinyurl.com/3jurp ; PMID: 15212752)
    >
    > Endurance training requirements:
    > "It appears that low- and moderate-intensity endurance exercise does
    > not affect dietary protein requirements... For the well- trained
    > endurance athlete training 4 to 5 d/wk for longer than 60 min, there
    > appears to be a very modest increase in dietary protein requirements"
    > (http://tinyurl.com/3qafz ; PMID: 15212749)
     
  6. Ron Peterson

    Ron Peterson Guest

    cguttman wrote:

    > I have not found a list of a recommended daily intake of essential and
    > non-essential amino acids per day (not just the general recommendation
    > of protein intake). Does anyone know if there is such a list on the web?


    The RDA for amino acids is given in
    http://www.anyvitamins.com/amino-acids/rda-amino-acids.htm. IIRC, the
    RDA for protein is about 0.8 g/Kg of body weight.

    > Finally, I like to learn more about how to combine certain plant foods
    > in order to obtain complete proteins.


    You need to look at the amino acid concentration of the different
    foods. I think that lysine is the only one that is difficult to find.
    You might simply take that as a supplement, since not much is required.

    My fellow meat eaters have a simple solution, but it doesn't help the
    vegetarians. There are intermediate possibilities such as using the
    protein from milk, eggs, or fish depending on the type of vegetarian a
    person is.
     
  7. DZ

    DZ Guest

    cguttman <[email protected]> wrote:
    > I assume that you do not aim to gain any muscle? You try to
    > maintain your fitness at the current level?


    True. I still have a higher LBM than an untrained person of
    my weight -
    http://home.nc.rr.com/netsink/veggies4526.jpg
    http://home.nc.rr.com/netsink/btsd22a.jpg

    > Maybe it is an interesting hypothesis that if one aims to gain
    > muscle the protein intake should be slightly higher when training
    > with weights and resistance, so that muscle tissue can be build?


    I'd not fret over it. One of the adaptations to exercise is the
    decrease in the rate of muscle protein degradation - you become more
    efficient at holding what you have. The debate is about the optimal
    protein intake (BTW, too much is not good either -
    http://tinyurl.com/4absn). The optimal amount (sport-wise) might be
    somewhat higher than RDA, but so what? In the long term, the type of
    exercise routine is much more important.
     
  8. cguttman

    cguttman Guest

    This is interesting, but I havent fully understood:

    > One of the adaptations to exercise is the
    > decrease in the rate of muscle protein degradation - you become more
    > efficient at holding what you have.


    So, how do you hold what you have? By eating the right amount at the
    right time? But when and what would that be exactly? Just to get an
    impression take my example, currently, I eat a banana and a bit of
    protein right after exercise. In the evening, just before sleep, I eat
    low glycemic index food and some cottage cheese. Do you have more/better
    suggestions?

    > The debate is about the optimal
    > protein intake (BTW, too much is not good either -
    > http://tinyurl.com/4absn). The optimal amount (sport-wise) might be
    > somewhat higher than RDA, but so what? In the long term, the type of
    > exercise routine is much more important.


    Any suggestions here? What do you figure is the best exercise routine
    for you?

    Chris
     
  9. MMu

    MMu Guest

    "cguttman" <[email protected]> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
    news:[email protected]

    > A second question is: What happens in our body to all the amino acids that
    > do not make a complete protein? Are they still used for something in our
    > body. For example, if you eat beans, they might contain 10 grams of
    > protein per 100 grams, but because they don't make a complete protein and
    > might have a biological value of 30, does that mean that only 3grams of
    > protein is actually used by your body? And what happens to the remaining
    > 7grams of protein (amino acids that cannot be combined)? Are they used in
    > any way in your body or are they just discarded by your body?


    Biological value compares the profile of the amino acids (how much of each
    amino acid is in there) of the food to the profile of the amino acids in our
    own body and takes digestion into account as well.

    So its not meant to be read as percentage of the food being utilized but
    rather: similarity between food and human body amino acid composition.

    You can combine foods for a 100% biological value if you match a pattern
    that is equal to our body composition of amino acids.

    Generally: meat, fish and eggs are closer in BV than vegetables (which has
    its reason in evolution.. plants need other properties for their proteins
    than animals do- and we are in effect an animal).

    > Regarding kidneys: Lets assume that your body discards the protein that do
    > not contribute to a complete protein. I assume that excess protein is
    > filtered by the kidney. Does that mean that the kidney has to filter out
    > more protein, if one consumes incomplete proteins?


    No, generally not.
    Protein is not taken up as protein but cut in the digestion tract by
    different enzymes into amino acids.
    Those amino acids are then taken up by specific transporters.

    The amino acids are then used to build new protein, to build other - non
    essential - amino acids out of them, or to simply generate energy.

    > Finally, I like to learn more about how to combine certain plant foods in
    > order to obtain complete proteins. While I have read much about general
    > recommendations about how to combine certain plant food on the net: e.g.,
    > chickpeas and sesame seeds, peanut butter and whole wheat bread, etc., I
    > have not found information about which ratio of these foods make a
    > complete protein. For example, How many chickpeas should be combined with
    > sesame seeds? 100grams to 20grams? 50grams 50grams? Does anyone know these
    > ratios?


    Usually you use 1:1 ratios in these. Its not useful to try to compute amino
    acid scores for each and every food you eat since in western countries
    protein quality is not a problem at all... other food components IN that
    protein.containing food are the problem.
    (having said this I would definitely not recommend you to eat 2 steaks a
    day)

    ...As someone else already said: Bodybuilders feaverishly eat massive
    ammounts of protein to have weight gain since it seems that protein can have
    a mild anabolic effect (in some studies). This is, however, just relevant
    for people spending a lot of time of their lives in the gym and a VERY
    strict diet (meaning diet times and calories, food compositions etc). You
    can easily gain muscle if you stick to the recommendations of a normal
    average diet (ie. the recommendations).

    No healthy western person needs a protein shake a day.

    > I appreciate help a lot, as I have spent much time on finding answers and
    > wasn't successful!
    >
    > cheers, Chris
     
  10. cguttman

    cguttman Guest

    Very helpful. Thank you.

    I am not a bodybuilder. I like to improve my LNB, and consume a healthy
    mix of animal proteins and plant based protein. One of your definitions
    is not entirely clear to me:

    > Biological value compares the profile of the amino acids (how much of each
    > amino acid is in there) of the food to the profile of the amino acids in our
    > own body and takes digestion into account as well.


    By "the food to the profile of the amino acids in our own body...", do
    you mean the amino acids that are *needed* by our body or the amino
    acids that our body *consists of*?

    And one more:

    > Usually you use 1:1 ratios in these. Its not useful to try to compute
    > amino acid scores for each and every food you eat since in western
    > countries protein quality is not a problem at all... other food
    > components IN that protein.containing food are the problem. (having >
    > said this I would definitely not recommend you to eat 2 steaks a day)


    A 1:1 ratio sounds a bit rough. If I make hummus, I dont mix 500grams
    tahini with 500grams chickpeas. Are you sure that this rule of thumb is
    reasonable?

    Also, my impression is that "quality of protein" seems to play a role if
    someone's main nutritional source of protein are grains. In such a case,
    this someone would ultimately lack essential amino acids, no? Even in
    western countries?

    Chris
    >
    > No healthy western person needs a protein shake a day.
    >
    >
    >>I appreciate help a lot, as I have spent much time on finding answers and
    >>wasn't successful!
    >>
    >>cheers, Chris

    >
    >
    >
     
  11. MMu

    MMu Guest

    "cguttman" <[email protected]> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
    news:[email protected]

    > By "the food to the profile of the amino acids in our own body...", do you
    > mean the amino acids that are *needed* by our body or the amino acids that
    > our body *consists of*?


    The amino acids our body consists of are the amino acids our body needs so
    you won't find much difference there- but to be exact: the amino acids
    needed by our body as determined by nitrogen balance.

    > A 1:1 ratio sounds a bit rough. If I make hummus, I dont mix 500grams
    > tahini with 500grams chickpeas. Are you sure that this rule of thumb is
    > reasonable?


    The reason for combining food is to equal out amino acid profiles. This is a
    matter of the limiting (lowest) amino acid. In real life (ie not in
    laboratory conditions) it does not matter if you mix 1:1 , 3:1, 2:1 or 1:2
    unless you eat so little of the combined food that even the combination of
    both is not enough to supply you with the limiting amino acid (the one that
    is lowest in your combined food). Usually amino acid profiles are picked
    that complement each other in a (roughly) one to one way. So, yes, this is
    correct when it comes to figuring out diets.

    > Also, my impression is that "quality of protein" seems to play a role if
    > someone's main nutritional source of protein are grains. In such a case,
    > this someone would ultimately lack essential amino acids, no? Even in
    > western countries?


    I seriously doubt that the main nutritional source for protein are grains
    for anyone living in western countries.
    But if someone would *exclusively* eat grains: yes, he will probably develop
    a lack of essential amino acids (probably lysine which is, if I remember
    correctly, the limiting amino acid there).
     
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