Reverse layering - arm warmers

I agree with pretty much everything you said. I've trained on the bike
through a few rough New England winters. Armwarmers are the most
valuable and versatile piece of clothing I have. (not just for
sporting, either. Very useful when taking mass transit)

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
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Quoted message said:

My theory is that the body will

prioritize bloodflow to the active areas and restrict bloodflow to the
arms
and hands when running, producing cold hands even if one is sweating
substantially at the core.
___

i've never thought the body could "prioritize" blood flow. I thought
you could restrict it by truncation / pressure (leg falling asleep,
etc.). Also this talk about "overheating and the core". From my
experience....in all temps...slightly unzipping my running jacket or
fleece top at the collar and down to chest level or therabouts has
always provided/produced sufficient cooling for my "core" for runs of
any distance. I could be wrong....but I've never experienced it as
any more complicated than this.

The body has a fixed amount of blood at a given time (blood volume can
increase with training). Let's say a person has 5 liters of blood.

At rest about 25% goes to the GI and 25% to the muscles, during exercise
more blood is sent to the working muscles and less to the gut. So in a
manner of speaking, the body does "prioritize" blood flow.

In the heat, a problem occurs as there is a conflict between sending blood
to the skin for thermoregulation and for exercise at the same time. In the
cold the conflict is keeping blood flowing to the working muscles and also
to the core body parts to protect the brain, heart, etc.

Since heat loss from the head is along the lines of 30% in a cool or cold
environment and the torso is next and then the thighs. So if one is trying
to keep warm, those should be covered. By the same token, if you are
warming up then uncovering them makes sense.

Some people have poor circulation in the extremities that might cause one to
want to cover them up. Hands are common for this.

Bottom line to me: do what works.

"Tony" <qtrader2@(remove)hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:G0VDd.932$7b.438@trndny02...

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] wrote in message
<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

My theory is that the body will

prioritize bloodflow to the active areas and restrict bloodflow to the
arms
and hands when running, producing cold hands even if one is sweating
substantially at the core.
___

i've never thought the body could "prioritize" blood flow. I thought
you could restrict it by truncation / pressure (leg falling asleep,
etc.). Also this talk about "overheating and the core". From my
experience....in all temps...slightly unzipping my running jacket or
fleece top at the collar and down to chest level or therabouts has
always provided/produced sufficient cooling for my "core" for runs of
any distance. I could be wrong....but I've never experienced it as
any more complicated than this.

Unzipping works some, but if my core layering is too warm, my back gets
hot
too. It's a subtle layering change. For example, instead of doubling my
core layer with a coolmax t-shirt and then a long sleeve polypro on top,
I'm
saying the same polypro top over bicycle arm warmers underneath works much
better, and keeps the body evenly warm. It's well worth experimenting with
if you ever get back from your runs sweaty but with chilled arms or hands,
something that always used to happen to me particularly noticeable in the
shower thawing out afterwards.

-T

Another option is a cycling vest that has mesh in the back. I have a nylon
vest (no sleeves) that is mesh in the back. The front is solid so that wind
effect is reduced.

"Paul Wilson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] said...

Quoted message said:

Also this talk about "overheating and the core". From my
experience....in all temps...slightly unzipping my running jacket or
fleece top at the collar and down to chest level or therabouts has
always provided/produced sufficient cooling for my "core" for runs of
any distance. I could be wrong....but I've never experienced it as
any more complicated than this.

That's you. Other respond differently. I find that underdressing the
core,
while selectively covering the forearms allows me to fairly precisely
regulate
my temperature.

My ideal ambient running temperature is around 35 F. Preferred covering is
shorts plus a long sleeve tee. Note there is no jacket to unzip.
Optionally,
gloves, but these become irrelevant after a couple of miles. The 35 F is
warm
enough not to cause a throat/lung burn, while allowing me to keep the body
temp moderate enough to prevent sweating. I absolutely love it, it feels
like
I could run forever.

Incidentally, there was a discussion of this just a few days ago, where I
posted the results of my experiment running a 15 miler at 35 F.

Running at substantially below 35 F may call for another layer on the
core, or
simply a substitution of a light sweatshirt for the long sleeve tee.

However, I have no experience running at temps below 20 F.

Then you have not lived!!!!!

"Dot" <dot.h@#duh?att.net> wrote in message
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Tony wrote:

I think this comes up again later, but I'll respond here. Cycling has the
additional challenges of windchill just from the limb motion (would occur
even on stationary trainer) and the sitting position results in bending as
well as constriction so blood doesn't flow to lower limbs as readily as in
running. Winter mt. bikers may get off and run for awhile to restore
circulation. Ditto for hands, but they're only gripping. People up here
use neoprene booties (I use mine for ss also) or overshoes (NEOS) and
probably some other solutions. Keep wind out of footwear - so use external
covering rather than baggies underneath or similar solution. Winter trail
riders are likely to do a lot of walking, esp. if snow is deep or soft, so
they need a shoe that's easy to walk in as well as bike in. The more
experienced winter riders use mitts that are attached to bike (around
brake and gear levers, I think) and you slide your hands in and out.

I would disagree that blood flow is restricted during cycling (except
maybe to the rump). The problem with the chill is the speeds. Cyclists get
plenty of blood flow to the legs.

"lobsters" are great for cycling.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

My theory is that the body will
prioritize bloodflow to the active areas and restrict bloodflow to the
arms
and hands when running, producing cold hands even if one is sweating
substantially at the core.

Or do you have cause and effect backwards? Cold hands signal body to step
up heat production, then core gets warm and sweats. This is what Armstrong
suggests in his book, but just an alternate hypothesis.

Dot

--
"After 26 hours 38 minutes, we accomplished our mission, and the next day
were fortunate to read about our adventure in the sports section of the
local papers rather than the obituaries."
-Dean Karnazes recounting their running of the WS100 trail in winter.

Tony said:

Yes, and I'm also saying that heavy activity might require a different
layering system than being inactive outdoors would, and that traditional
layering systems don't take this into account.

Don't know what you consider "traditional", but I often see people running in
shorts, singlet and gloves. I suppose it's not layering though.

I don't see people who are inactive outdoors in such attire. I don't know why
you believe this is traditional or radical. I bet people have been running in
shorts, singlets and gloves for as long as people have been running.

Quoted message said:

I like to wear some kind of leg covering under 40f just to be comfortable,
though when racing I might not, depending. I've seen running pants that have
a full length side ventilation zip; might be interesting to try.

Running pants are already very light and breathable without a side zip, and
they're not as warm as tights. But tights are fine anyway. You won't sweat in
them the way you do up top.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Sam said:

Another option is a cycling vest that has mesh in the back. I have a nylon
vest (no sleeves) that is mesh in the back. The front is solid so that wind
effect is reduced.

Then there are tops like Sugoi/Sporthill that have a windproof front and mesh
back. There are also a lot of jackets made like this.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Sam said:

Quoted message said:

too. It's a subtle layering change. For example, instead of doubling my
core layer with a coolmax t-shirt and then a long sleeve polypro on top,
I'm
saying the same polypro top over bicycle arm warmers underneath works much
better, and keeps the body evenly warm.

You'd probably be fine (or even better) with the polypro top and no bicycle
warmers. Layering schmayering. You're wearing too much baggage. Now you're
replacing one piece of baggage with another. As Sam points out, get something
with a more breathable back so you don't sweat so much.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Quoted message said:

Don't know what you consider "traditional", but I often see people running in
shorts, singlet and gloves. I suppose it's not layering though.

Of course it is! Singular, but still layering.

Sam said:

"Dot" <dot.h@#duh?att.net> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

and the sitting position results in bending as
well as constriction so blood doesn't flow to lower limbs as readily as in
running. Winter mt. bikers may get off and run for awhile to restore
circulation.

I would disagree that blood flow is restricted during cycling (except
maybe to the rump). The problem with the chill is the speeds. Cyclists get
plenty of blood flow to the legs.

What temperature ranges are we talking about? I'm thinking specifically
when it's below +20F and down to say -20F and lower. It may be that the
layers constrict in spite of best layering considerations?

My statement was based partly on my limited experience and partly on
what someone told me at the local bike shop (someone that does winter mt
biking, like out to the local glacier). Although I had biked short
distances in the cold (0 to -20F) before, I hadn't biked at those temps
for 13k (45 min on ice vs usual 10-15 min), the length of tri bike leg.
In training (about 20F, iirc), I was having problems keeping feet warm,
possibly because one sock wasn't enough and layered socks cut off
circulation slightly. About the time the thermometer hit -10F and was
still dropping the day before, I hit the panic button and went to every
store I could think of looking for better gear for hands and feet. The
local guy was the one that mentioned difficulties in keeping feet warm
because of the circulation issues. I think a couple people in the tri
(+1F) did get off and start walking until they could restore circulation
to feet. And I think the ultra bikers do also, but I could be wrong.
Admittedly sometimes that's because of snow. I'll ask next time I visit
the shop. I'll ask a couple of the bikers I know that have ridden the
Su100 next time I see them.

Granted, many of my short rides were in blue jeans to the office
although over polypro and under windpants, but I had my sporthill xc and
tights for the tri.

Quoted message said:

"lobsters" are great for cycling.

I'm assuming this is what you're calling "lobsters" - what we usually
call "moose mitts" or "pogies" (could remember the name the other day)
http://www.trails-edge.com/retail/te_shirts/amfbikemits.htm
This is what I wished I had for the tri but couldn't find any locally at
the time. Used chemical handwarmers - 2 in each mitten.

I notice they have a pocket to keep energy bars warm so you can eat them 🙂

Thanks.

Dot

--
"After 26 hours 38 minutes, we accomplished our mission, and the next
day were fortunate to read about our adventure in the sports section of
the local papers rather than the obituaries."
-Dean Karnazes recounting their running of the WS100 trail in winter.

Tony said:

I've got both the toe covers and full cover booties that go over the cycling
shoes. Part of the problem is the cycling shoes don't allow for a very
thick sock. Getting a roomier pair specifically for winter might help, but
it's not in my budget for cycling.

-T

I did buy a roomier pair of fairly inexpensive bike shoes, by mail. I
first tried toe covers--haven't tried the full booties but wearing thin
socks just didn't seem right. The fit on the new shoes is good except
they hit the front of my ankle. I'm wondering if another layer of
insole would raise my foot up to a better position, plus more insulation
under my foot would be a good thing. It has been too warm here to
experiment.

Pam

pam_in_sc wrote in message <[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Tony said:

I've got both the toe covers and full cover booties that go over the

cycling

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

shoes. Part of the problem is the cycling shoes don't allow for a very
thick sock. Getting a roomier pair specifically for winter might help,

but

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

it's not in my budget for cycling.

-T

I did buy a roomier pair of fairly inexpensive bike shoes, by mail. I
first tried toe covers--haven't tried the full booties but wearing thin
socks just didn't seem right. The fit on the new shoes is good except
they hit the front of my ankle. I'm wondering if another layer of
insole would raise my foot up to a better position, plus more insulation
under my foot would be a good thing. It has been too warm here to
experiment.

If I intended to cycle a lot more in the cold months I'd get roomier shoes
and also a larger helmet to allow for a thicker hat.

-T