Right to roam - how does it work?

Bitstring <[email hidden]>, from the
wonderful person Bernard Hill <[email hidden]> said

Quoted message said:

I was recently on holiday in Wales and did some walking. I came across
new signs apparently at the boundary of someone's land with a picture
the same as I see on the new OS maps. (A man walking between 2 "hills"😉

On the reverse side the icon had the man crossed out and it said
"Access Land Ends. Please keep to the footpath".

This seems strange: as I'm coming off the hill is not the access land
*starting*?

So how does this work?

What's "access land" and what's the legal situation with the RtR - if
that's what it's about?

(I've never seen these in Scotland, so that's why I'm ignorant of it)

'Access land' is where you do have the RtR. You can not safely assume
that this is the high(er) ground .. you need to look at the RtR maps and
see what areas are highlighted.

You also cannot safely assume that the oiks who put the signs up put
them on the right sides of the gate / fence/ stile whatever .. which is
why you really need to look at the map.

Luckily the maps are all online these days ..

http://www.openaccess.gov.uk/S4/html/default.htm

--
GSV Three Minds in a Can
9,423 Km walked. 1,827Km PROWs surveyed. 33.2% complete.

Bernard Hill wrote

Quoted message said:

I was recently on holiday in Wales and did some walking. I came across new
signs apparently at the boundary of someone's land with a picture the same
as I see on the new OS maps. (A man walking between 2 "hills"😉

On the reverse side the icon had the man crossed out and it said "Access
Land Ends. Please keep to the footpath".

This seems strange: as I'm coming off the hill is not the access land
*starting*?

The higher parts of the farm were Access Land and the lower
part was not. ?? When you have the new maps its abundantly
clear. It's usually the case that land closer to the farms, where its
more managed, are not Access Land, while higher up the hills
where sheep are pretty much left to thier own devices and the
land is not actively managed *is* Access Land. Perhaps you're
equating 'Access' with 'Access Controlled' when it's actually
the opposite. Access Land is Access uncontrolled Land. ie.
Right to Roam.

Chris

Bernard Hill said:

I was recently on holiday in Wales and did some walking. I came across
new signs apparently at the boundary of someone's land with a picture
the same as I see on the new OS maps. (A man walking between 2 "hills"😉

On the reverse side the icon had the man crossed out and it said "Access
Land Ends. Please keep to the footpath".

This seems strange: as I'm coming off the hill is not the access land
*starting*?

That's right. The access land over which you have the right to roam as
you would in sScotland is generally the enenclosed land or forestry.
The thing is without the words the man crossed out sign is a little
misleading and could be taken to mean no access full stop. A better
sign would be a man walking on a path symbol.
--
Phil Cook, last hill: Angletarn Pikes via Beda Fell.
http://www.p-t-cook.freeserve.co.uk/May07/martin9.htm

Phil Cook said:

Bernard Hill said:

I was recently on holiday in Wales and did some walking. I came across
new signs apparently at the boundary of someone's land with a picture
the same as I see on the new OS maps. (A man walking between 2 "hills"😉

On the reverse side the icon had the man crossed out and it said "Access
Land Ends. Please keep to the footpath".

This seems strange: as I'm coming off the hill is not the access land
*starting*?

That's right. The access land over which you have the right to roam as
sScotland is generally the enenclosed land or forestry.

Ahem! Finger trouble :-(

....as in Scotland is generally UNenclosed land...

Quoted message said:

The thing is without the words the man crossed out sign is a little
misleading and could be taken to mean no access full stop. A better
sign would be a man walking on a path symbol.

--
Phil Cook, last hill: Angletarn Pikes via Beda Fell.
http://www.p-t-cook.freeserve.co.uk/May07/martin9.htm

"Bernard Hill" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I was recently on holiday in Wales and did some walking. I came across new
signs apparently at the boundary of someone's land with a picture the same
as I see on the new OS maps. (A man walking between 2 "hills"😉

On the reverse side the icon had the man crossed out and it said "Access
Land Ends. Please keep to the footpath".

This seems strange: as I'm coming off the hill is not the access land
*starting*?

So how does this work?

What's "access land" and what's the legal situation with the RtR - if
that's what it's about?

I think you are confusing "access land" in general which one might use to
access the higher up hills for example, and "Access Land" which is the legal
entity and might be anywhere, being land to which you have freer access.
IYSWIM

--
Bob Mannix
(anti-spam is as easy as 1-2-3 - not)

The message <[email hidden]>
from Bernard Hill <[email hidden]> contains these words:

Quoted message said:

(I've never seen these in Scotland, so that's why I'm ignorant of it)
--

We have the Land Reform (Scotland) Act 2003 which gives a pretty well
universal right to go where you will, under your own power. Down there
in England everything is different!

Richard

"Richard Spencer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

The message <[email hidden]>
from Bernard Hill <[email hidden]> contains these words:

Quoted message said:

(I've never seen these in Scotland, so that's why I'm ignorant of it)
--

We have the Land Reform (Scotland) Act 2003 which gives a pretty well
universal right to go where you will, under your own power. Down there
in England everything is different!

I'm a bit like Bernard. Don't understand the complexities of the
English/Welsh system with all its maps and things, and struggling to raise
enough enthusiasm to find out how it works.

Duncan Gray wrote

Quoted message said:

I'm a bit like Bernard. Don't understand the complexities of the
English/Welsh system with all its maps and things, and struggling to raise
enough enthusiasm to find out how it works.

If you can read a map then it's simple because Access Land is clearly
marked and what we have now is definitely better than what we had
before.

Chris

Chris Gilbert said:

If you can read a map then it's simple because Access Land is clearly
marked

That assumes you have a current map with it marked. Most of my map
collection is older than RtR legislation and I have quite a lot of maps,
really wouldn't want to be spending a couple of hundred quid just to let
me use a piece of half-baked legislation that is clearly inferior to
what we have up here.

Quoted message said:

and what we have now is definitely better than what we had
before.

While true, I think it's damning with faint praise, as should be the case.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Bitstring <[email hidden]>, from the wonderful person
Peter Clinch <[email hidden]> said

Quoted message said:

Chris Gilbert said:

If you can read a map then it's simple because Access Land is clearly
marked

That assumes you have a current map with it marked. Most of my map
collection is older than RtR legislation and I have quite a lot of maps,
really wouldn't want to be spending a couple of hundred quid just to let
me use a piece of half-baked legislation that is clearly inferior to
what we have up here.

As I said upthread, and gave a URL for, it is all on line, if you have
patience you don't need to buy anything. If you can drive a crayon, you
can even make your own off-line reference.

--
GSV Three Minds in a Can
9,423 Km walked. 1,827Km PROWs surveyed. 33.2% complete.

Peter Clinch wrote

Quoted message said:

While true, I think it's damning with faint praise, as should be the case.

We have a looooong way to go and I seriously doubt
we'll ever have comparable access in England.

Chris

In article <[email hidden]>, Chris Gilbert
<[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

Duncan Gray wrote

Quoted message said:

I'm a bit like Bernard. Don't understand the complexities of the
English/Welsh system with all its maps and things, and struggling to raise
enough enthusiasm to find out how it works.

If you can read a map then it's simple because Access Land is clearly
marked

Clearly marked but only on 1:25k maps not 1:50k and only the maps
released after the open access for the area came into force.

--

Dominic Sexton

GSV Three Minds in a Can said:

As I said upthread, and gave a URL for, it is all on line, if you have
patience you don't need to buy anything.

For some values of "you", that is.

Quoted message said:

If you can drive a crayon, you
can even make your own off-line reference.

Given the choice, would you prefer to:

a) draw boundaries on all of your maps, or;
b) have better legislation, such as that existing right next door and
still within the UK, that rendered it all pointless and gave you better
access too?

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Dominic Sexton wrote

Quoted message said:

Clearly marked but only on 1:25k maps not 1:50k and only the maps released
after the open access for the area came into force.

Why would it be any other way ? The OS have upgraded the
scale of maps most likely to be bought by the people who are
most likely to take advnatage of the new legislation. Walkers.
And while CROW *may* be an interim position between what
went before and something closer to the Scottish model is
everyone going to wait around using the old maps for the next
several decades until the next tranche of changes arrive and make
the present issues redundant ? I really prefer to take the cup
half-full position on this.

Chris

Bitstring <[email hidden]>, from the wonderful person
Peter Clinch <[email hidden]> said

Quoted message said:

GSV Three Minds in a Can said:

As I said upthread, and gave a URL for, it is all on line, if you have
patience you don't need to buy anything.

For some values of "you", that is.

Quoted message said:

If you can drive a crayon, you
can even make your own off-line reference.

Given the choice, would you prefer to:

a) draw boundaries on all of your maps, or;
b) have better legislation, such as that existing right next door and
still within the UK, that rendered it all pointless and gave you better
access too?

Oh I'd much rather have a truck full of used fivers delivered to my
door, rendering all other options pointless, but it isn't going to
happen. Get over it. What applies tot he highlands of Scotland just
doesn't work very well in Surrey, or even Sussex.

You might as well [censored] about the London congestion charge (hey, how
come they can drive for free in that street over there ..)

--
GSV Three Minds in a Can
9,423 Km walked. 1,827Km PROWs surveyed. 33.2% complete.

GSV Three Minds in a Can said:

Oh I'd much rather have a truck full of used fivers delivered to my
door, rendering all other options pointless, but it isn't going to
happen. Get over it. What applies tot he highlands of Scotland just
doesn't work very well in Surrey, or even Sussex.

The Scottish Access laws apply to Scotland as a whole, not just the
Highlands. It doesn't take too much searching to find bits of Scotland
that have far more in common with Surrey and Sussex than they have with
the Cairngorms, yet still the same law applies, and since it's a pretty
well crafted bit of legislation it doesn't cause problems.

So there's no "getting over" to be done.

Quoted message said:

You might as well [censored] about the London congestion charge (hey, how
come they can drive for free in that street over there ..)

More that I [censored] about the lack of one in Edinburgh, where it had to go
to a vote rather than being imposed by an executive with a good idea,
and the turkeys voted for Christmas...

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

In article <[email hidden]>, Chris Gilbert
<[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

Dominic Sexton wrote

Quoted message said:

Clearly marked but only on 1:25k maps not 1:50k and only the maps released
after the open access for the area came into force.

Why would it be any other way ?

I'm not saying it would or should be any different but pointing out that
the 1:50k maps, which are also popular with walkers, do not show the
access land.

If they did it probably would not be of much benefit anyway because they
don't show the boundaries (fences / walls) which the access land limits
run along. Therefore they would probably not add to and may detract from
the clarity of where the boundary is.

--

Dominic Sexton

Dominic Sexton wrote

Quoted message said:

If they did it probably would not be of much benefit anyway because they
don't show the boundaries (fences / walls) which the access land limits
run along. Therefore they would probably not add to and may detract from
the clarity of where the boundary is.

I think also that, if the local White Peak map is anything to go
by, there must be an awful lot of little fiddly bits that would be
quite hard to represent sensibly on 1:50k so there may have been
a practical dimension to the choice of limiting the scope to the
Explorer maps.

Chris

In message <[email hidden]>, Chris Gilbert
<[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

Peter Clinch wrote

Quoted message said:

While true, I think it's damning with faint praise, as should be the case.

We have a looooong way to go and I seriously doubt
we'll ever have comparable access in England.

Some of us have simply walked wherever we felt like it and assumed the
Scottish access applied with little bother. (I know - call us
irresponsible) Almost essential for many of the Marilyns in England and
Wales - some of which are still not part of the new found 'freedom'.

The biggest proof of the futility is when Ramblers Anonymous published a
series of books of walks in the north of England on land that had become
access land I flicked through them in the shop and there was barely a
walk I had not already done - and judging by the paths already worn many
others had done them prior to me.

Now if only we could do something about access to water in E and W for
canoeing/kayaking - that is the one that makes me jealous of Scotland.

--
Martin Richardson
670/1554 Marilyns - aiming for 777 71/118 New Donalds - only 40% to go
100/211 Irish Hewitts - 111 hitts left 42/220 Corbetts - only 81% to go