"Rigid Class System in Europe" Bob Roll Comments

On Wed, 16 Aug 2006 19:56:22 GMT, "steve" <[email hidden]> a écrit :

Quoted message said:

Im hoping some of our European friends will comment here. I know the US is
famous for class mobility, but I was under the impression that class
immobility was a thing of the past even in Europe... especially after the
two world wars shook up the social structure. Bob obviously disagrees..and
he's been there, which gives him a big advantage over me (a "dumbass", no
doubt).

What do our European friends think? Rigid class structure and social
pressure to stay put? Or is social mobility now the norm?

thanks,
steve

Davey thinks Roll is an uncouth, ignorant, semi literate slob with an
IQ somewhere around 4O and who has difficulty stringing more than two
words together to form a coherent sentence and who definitely isn't
qualified to comment on anything more profound than what he had for
breakfast.

There Roll, it's payback time

Remember shouting your usual garbage at an older rider in the
Place Massena in July 1988?

The rigid class system in the US is rarely spoken of, and if one does
mention it, the neo-cons immediately cry out "class warfare!!". They
don't want any attention drawn to the rapidly disappearing middle class
of the US. There are some slight chances for inter-caste mobility both
in Europe and the US - either with a lucky, huge lottery win, or as in
some cases, those lucky enough to be in the right place at the right
time during the internet boom. In any case, if you aren't already
wealthy, you've missed out.
Revtom

steve said:

Im hoping some of our European friends will comment here. I know the US is
famous for class mobility, but I was under the impression that class
immobility was a thing of the past even in Europe... especially after the
two world wars shook up the social structure. Bob obviously disagrees..and
he's been there, which gives him a big advantage over me (a "dumbass", no
doubt).

What do our European friends think? Rigid class structure and social
pressure to stay put? Or is social mobility now the norm?

thanks,
steve
--
"The accused will now make a bogus statement."
James Joyce

steve said:

Im hoping some of our European friends will comment here. I know the US is
famous for class mobility, but I was under the impression that class
immobility was a thing of the past even in Europe... especially after the
two world wars shook up the social structure. Bob obviously disagrees..and
he's been there, which gives him a big advantage over me (a "dumbass", no
doubt).

What do our European friends think? Rigid class structure and social
pressure to stay put? Or is social mobility now the norm?

Actually, the US is not as class-mobile as it is famous for, depending
on how you define class. The US is (or should be) famous for the
_appearance_ of mobility because class is more linked to income
than strict heredity, but actual measures of income mobility from
generation to generation often show that the US is _less_ income-mobile
than a number of European countries. This is all speaking about
the postwar era.

Here's a recent article that suggests Brits define class more by birth
than by income:
http://www.economist.com/world/britain/displaystory.cfm?story_id=7289005

(FWIW, as an American, the class jape in the headline about
"did they buy their own furniture" was quite inexplicable. I had to
read the article to find out that the opposite is inheriting one's
furniture, from the previous Lord of Woolshirt-Dundersnipe, presumably.
My American co-worker who has lived in Britain figured it out
immediately, though.)

A bunch of Times poll results for the US (which shows that most
Amis think it's easier to move up in the US than Europe):
http://www.nytimes.com/packages/html/national/20050515_CLASS_GRAPHIC/index_04.html

And a comparison of income-mobility among countries, which
suggests the opposite:
http://www.americanprogress.org/site/pp.asp?c=biJRJ8OVF&b=1579981

Unfortunately, none of these really studied whether bike racers
are definitively working-class no matter how much they make,
which is sort of the substance of your question, I guess.

Ben

steve said:

Im hoping some of our European friends will comment here. I know the US is
famous for class mobility, but I was under the impression that class
immobility was a thing of the past even in Europe... especially after the
two world wars shook up the social structure. Bob obviously disagrees..and
he's been there, which gives him a big advantage over me (a "dumbass", no
doubt).

What do our European friends think? Rigid class structure and social
pressure to stay put? Or is social mobility now the norm?

thanks,
steve

There is certainly a great degree of social mobility, but not on the
scale found in the US. There are ethnic issues related to this as well.
Nationality is based on ethnicity (despite what folks wish to believe)
which makes integration of "foreigners" difficult. This does not help
the mobility situation. The so-called pro-worker laws that make it hard
to fire people reinforces the old-boy networks where people get jobs
from people they know, or when to some exclusive school with. This of
course happens in the US too, but at least in the US a kid from a
trailer park or the projects who does well in school has a chance of
getting a good job where they can prove their worth. In Europe hiring
"unkowns" like this can be too risky as they can't be fired if they
turn out to be flakes, so people like that have a hard time getting
jobs. This is the real problem with mobility there.

Joseph

(American guy who has lived in NY, Chicago, LA, France, Switzerland,
and Norway. Also lots of travelling in Europe and US.)

steve said:

Im hoping some of our European friends will comment here. I know the US is
famous for class mobility, but I was under the impression that class
immobility was a thing of the past even in Europe... especially after the
two world wars shook up the social structure. Bob obviously disagrees..and
he's been there, which gives him a big advantage over me (a "dumbass", no
doubt).

What do our European friends think? Rigid class structure and social
pressure to stay put? Or is social mobility now the norm?

thanks,
steve
--
"The accused will now make a bogus statement."
James Joyce

Is this in response to the usual stereotype that bicycle racing success
serves to rescue destitute European men from dismal futures slaving
away in coal mines? People have been reading too many back-issues of
Winning Magazine again. Ergo, Dope or grab a pick-axe.

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Is this in response to the usual stereotype that bicycle racing success
serves to rescue destitute European men from dismal futures slaving
away in coal mines? People have been reading too many back-issues of
Winning Magazine again. Ergo, Dope or grab a pick-axe.

Yea, now it's Dope or answer the phone in a call center.

"Revtom" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

The rigid class system in the US is rarely spoken of, and if one does
mention it, the neo-cons immediately cry out "class warfare!!". They
don't want any attention drawn to the rapidly disappearing middle class
of the US.

See? I told you that idiots are everywhere.

Why imagine the fright Europeans have when they discover that the median
income for the "lower" classes in a place where wages are very low - Miami -
are $35K/year.

What's more, 95% of ALL taxes are paid by the upper half of all income
earners.

Did you know that you can own your own home and have a new car and be on
welfare?

This is the class system that people in the United States are decrying.
Moreover, EVERY person in the USA can move up to the limits of their ability
if they wish. In Europe that simply isn't the case as you can discover
simply by talking to any factory worker.

Too bad that revtom doesn't understand what he doesn't understand.

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

steve said:

Im hoping some of our European friends will comment here. I know the US
is
famous for class mobility, but I was under the impression that class
immobility was a thing of the past even in Europe... especially after the
two world wars shook up the social structure. Bob obviously
disagrees..and
he's been there, which gives him a big advantage over me (a "dumbass", no
doubt).

What do our European friends think? Rigid class structure and social
pressure to stay put? Or is social mobility now the norm?

There is certainly a great degree of social mobility, but not on the
scale found in the US. There are ethnic issues related to this as well.
Nationality is based on ethnicity (despite what folks wish to believe)
which makes integration of "foreigners" difficult. This does not help
the mobility situation. The so-called pro-worker laws that make it hard
to fire people reinforces the old-boy networks where people get jobs
from people they know, or when to some exclusive school with. This of
course happens in the US too, but at least in the US a kid from a
trailer park or the projects who does well in school has a chance of
getting a good job where they can prove their worth. In Europe hiring
"unkowns" like this can be too risky as they can't be fired if they
turn out to be flakes, so people like that have a hard time getting
jobs. This is the real problem with mobility there.

A former in-law of my brother did somewhat well in Germany. He tried to move
to the USA where he believed his business would thrive. The USA wouldn't let
a German immigrate. He moved to Australia and is presently a
multimillionaire. If he could have done that in Germany he'd have stayed.

Revtom said:

The rigid class system in the US is rarely spoken of, and if one does
mention it, the neo-cons immediately cry out "class warfare!!". They
don't want any attention drawn to the rapidly disappearing middle class
of the US. There are some slight chances for inter-caste mobility both
in Europe and the US - either with a lucky, huge lottery win, or as in
some cases, those lucky enough to be in the right place at the right
time during the internet boom. In any case, if you aren't already
wealthy, you've missed out.
Revtom

There is no rigid class system in the US. Sure it's far from perfect,
but it really is the land of oppurtunity. I know personally several
people who arrived in the US as refugees from places like Poland and
Ethiopia with literally $2 in their pockets who live as comfortable
middle-class citizens now. I'm only 3rd generation and even my
grandparents who were born on the boat made it to middle class after
they got to NY. I also know of black kids who grew up in the projects
who are doctors and are on boards of trustees at museums. Sure that's
all anecdotal, but that sort of thing is much less common elsewhere.

And you don't have to win lotto to become rich. Running a good pizza
restaurant or plumbing company can do the trick. And what is wealthy
anyway? What is poor? I remember watching (fat) people on "check day"
in Chicago standing in line to get their handout while wearing leather
jackets, gold jewlrey, and then using the money to pay their cable bill
at the same place.

I'm not saying there are no problems, but lack of mobility is not one
of them.

Joseph

Tom Kunich said:

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

steve said:

Im hoping some of our European friends will comment here. I know the US
is
famous for class mobility, but I was under the impression that class
immobility was a thing of the past even in Europe... especially after the
two world wars shook up the social structure. Bob obviously
disagrees..and
he's been there, which gives him a big advantage over me (a "dumbass", no
doubt).

What do our European friends think? Rigid class structure and social
pressure to stay put? Or is social mobility now the norm?

There is certainly a great degree of social mobility, but not on the
scale found in the US. There are ethnic issues related to this as well.
Nationality is based on ethnicity (despite what folks wish to believe)
which makes integration of "foreigners" difficult. This does not help
the mobility situation. The so-called pro-worker laws that make it hard
to fire people reinforces the old-boy networks where people get jobs
from people they know, or when to some exclusive school with. This of
course happens in the US too, but at least in the US a kid from a
trailer park or the projects who does well in school has a chance of
getting a good job where they can prove their worth. In Europe hiring
"unkowns" like this can be too risky as they can't be fired if they
turn out to be flakes, so people like that have a hard time getting
jobs. This is the real problem with mobility there.

A former in-law of my brother did somewhat well in Germany. He tried to move
to the USA where he believed his business would thrive. The USA wouldn't let
a German immigrate. He moved to Australia and is presently a
multimillionaire. If he could have done that in Germany he'd have stayed.

That is a perfect example of the European "brain drain". I read an
article (in the Economist of all places?) which said something like
100,000 (or some other huge number) European higher education students
in the US do not plan to go back. It was like 90% of the students.

Joseph

Quoted message said:

(FWIW, as an American, the class jape in the headline about
"did they buy their own furniture" was quite inexplicable. I had to
read the article to find out that the opposite is inheriting one's
furniture, from the previous Lord of Woolshirt-Dundersnipe, presumably.

hey, thanks! i read the article and i still didn't get the headline. the
problem for me is i would be proud to buy my own furniture instead of
getting it for free when my parents or neighbors were throwing it out
into the bin. i'm joking, but i'm serious too 😉 thanks for explaining
that, it has been secretly bothering me all week.

heather

Tom Kunich said:

"Revtom" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Unsubstantiated accusations

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The rigid class system in the US is rarely spoken of, and if one does
mention it, the neo-cons immediately cry out "class warfare!!". They
don't want any attention drawn to the rapidly disappearing middle class
of the US.

are followed by wishful thinking

Quoted message said:

This is the class system that people in the United States are decrying.
Moreover, EVERY person in the USA can move up to the limits of their ability
if they wish. In Europe that simply isn't the case as you can discover
simply by talking to any factory worker.

Of course, one can read more widely and get closer to the truth. The
recent Economist article has already been cited. Here are others:

http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0127/p21s01-coop.html

http://www.cipa-apex.org/toomuch/articlenew2005/May23a.html

and an interesting summary of the research:

http://www.urban.org/publications/406722.html

As an immigrant and naturalized citizen the great appeal of the US is
that amidst the clutter and noise of the extremists, there is the calm
center where reasoned discussion prevails. Although, of late, it seems
that the center has shrunk or maybe it's just because I'm spending my
time on rbr.

Gabe Brovedani

"Jack Maars" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:Q%LEg.410631$Mn5.87970@pd7tw3no...

Quoted message said:

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Is this in response to the usual stereotype that bicycle racing success
serves to rescue destitute European men from dismal futures slaving
away in coal mines? People have been reading too many back-issues of
Winning Magazine again. Ergo, Dope or grab a pick-axe.

Yea, now it's Dope or answer the phone in a call center.

Actually, it seems Euro peloton riders who have to retire unexpectedly early
work in construction

"Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Revtom" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

The rigid class system in the US is rarely spoken of, and if one does
mention it, the neo-cons immediately cry out "class warfare!!". They
don't want any attention drawn to the rapidly disappearing middle class
of the US.

See? I told you that idiots are everywhere.

Why imagine the fright Europeans have when they discover that the median
income for the "lower" classes in a place where wages are very low -
Miami - are $35K/year.

Try Arkansas or Mississippi for very low wages and 'brain drain'.

"Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Revtom" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

The rigid class system in the US is rarely spoken of, and if one does
mention it, the neo-cons immediately cry out "class warfare!!". They
don't want any attention drawn to the rapidly disappearing middle class
of the US.

See? I told you that idiots are everywhere.

Why imagine the fright Europeans have when they discover that the median
income for the "lower" classes in a place where wages are very low -
Miami - are $35K/year.

What's more, 95% of ALL taxes are paid by the upper half of all income
earners.

Did you know that you can own your own home and have a new car and be on
welfare?

This is the class system that people in the United States are decrying.
Moreover, EVERY person in the USA can move up to the limits of their
ability if they wish. In Europe that simply isn't the case as you can
discover simply by talking to any factory worker.

Too bad that revtom doesn't understand what he doesn't understand.

Read and learn. http://www.classism.org/index.php

Quoted message said:

steve said:

Im hoping some of our European friends will comment here. I know the US is
famous for class mobility, but I was under the impression that class
immobility was a thing of the past even in Europe... especially after the
two world wars shook up the social structure. Bob obviously disagrees..and
he's been there, which gives him a big advantage over me (a "dumbass", no
doubt).

What do our European friends think? Rigid class structure and social
pressure to stay put? Or is social mobility now the norm?

thanks,
steve
--
"The accused will now make a bogus statement."
James Joyce

Is this in response to the usual stereotype that bicycle racing success
serves to rescue destitute European men from dismal futures slaving
away in coal mines? People have been reading too many back-issues of
Winning Magazine again. Ergo, Dope or grab a pick-axe.

There was a great chapter in a book some years ago interviewing some retired
riders. These were all old domestiques who were universally owners of a pub,
inn, bike shop, service station or other like business. The tale they all told
was of supporting their leader in the Tour and being rewarded with a stage win
that provided the money for them to buy into a business and provide for their
future.

Precapitalist - almost feudal.

Ron

steve said:

Im hoping some of our European friends will comment here. I know the US is
famous for class mobility, but I was under the impression that class
immobility was a thing of the past even in Europe... especially after the
two world wars shook up the social structure. Bob obviously disagrees..and
he's been there, which gives him a big advantage over me (a "dumbass", no
doubt).

What do our European friends think? Rigid class structure and social
pressure to stay put? Or is social mobility now the norm?

"Americans have no need of communism. They change occupations and social
standing the way a European changes shirts." Karl Marx, Das Kapital

Ron

In article <[email hidden]>,

steve said:

Im hoping some of our European friends will comment here. I know the US is
famous for class mobility, but I was under the impression that class
immobility was a thing of the past even in Europe... especially after the
two world wars shook up the social structure. Bob obviously disagrees..and
he's been there, which gives him a big advantage over me (a "dumbass", no
doubt).

What do our European friends think? Rigid class structure and social
pressure to stay put? Or is social mobility now the norm?

I am not European. The rich say that the poor will always
be with us. Which is to say there will always be a class
system. Those who decry the class system whether it be
overt or de facto are those who most want to join the
ruling class.

--
Michael Press

in 523429 20060816 222509 'Tom Kunich' cyclintom@yahoo. com said:

This is the class system that people in the United States are decrying.
Moreover, EVERY person in the USA can move up to the limits of their ability
if they wish. In Europe that simply isn't the case as you can discover
simply by talking to any factory worker.

Bollocks, Tom (as usual).

Both Margaret Thatcher and John Major came from humble beginnings.

The majority of Britain's wealthy people are "self-made".