Rim failure. Common?

Ron Ruff said:

Quoted message said:

Couldn't "switch wheels" mean they get used wheels installed? Maybe the
mechanics will check them out and put them back into circulation again
later (after the tour)?

I'm pretty sure the mechanics check the wheels thoroughly after *every*
race. It would theoretically make sense to put "rejects" into a pile to
be reworked/rebuilt later... but I don't think that is what they do.

Anyway, I found the post I've been talking about. Here is a reprint:

------------------------------------

By the way, I was fortunate to get to ride in one of the Discovery team
cars
during a stage of the '05 Tour de France, with one of their two
mechanics in
the back seat. I asked him about the way they clean their bikes; seems
like
customers see photos of them hosing down the bikes, which I know for a
fact
wrecks bearings. So how do their wheels stand up to that sort of abuse
(during the bike cleaning)? Turns out they don't need to; they
typically
replace their wheels every 500 miles or so. Why? Because they can. Why
bother with bearing maintenance (you've probably seen the old films
showing
a mechanic tearing apart hubs, bottom brackets & headsets every single
day)
when you can just treat them as a disposable item? Boggles the mind.
I'd
sure like to be the guy who gets the "old" wheels...

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

------------------------------------------

In a prior life long ago, when steel was real, I worked as a team bike
mechanic. One of the duties was washing bikes. We always took the
wheels off prior to hosing off the bike, like as in this pic:

http://www.uspsprocycling.com/features/mech.htm

The wheels were always washed apart from the bike, with stiff nylon
bristle brushes and soapy water. If you look at that pic carefully you
see the blue crates with soapy water. Each wheel would take no more
than 15 seconds to clean that way, and there was little chance the hub
bearings would be subjected to water. Notice there are at least 4
bikes being cleaned in a similar fashion in the pic.

When you really think logically about it, Mike's account doesn't hold
up. Bike mechanics have always hosed down bikes for cleaning. If they
replace (as in DISPOSE) wheels due to water/bearing damage, why don't
they change out the BB and headset then?? Why don't they just use
disposable bikes?

When mechanics say "replace" they don't mean "dispose." They mean
replace as in "wheel change." We had wheels for different
weather/terrain conditions, which accounts for why a small bike team
whould need such a large number of wheels. We'd replace wheels
depending on race day conditions. (Ridden) replaced wheels get
refurb'ed later, to use another day.

damyth said:

Ron Ruff said:

damyth said:

Ron Ruff wrote:

>Of course it would be nice if they lasted a bit longer... but someone
>made a post to this NG a few months back, stating that a mechanic from
>Discovery said that they replaced wheels every few races... I think it
>was 3 or 4.

Umm, that wasn't my recollection of that thread. I believe the thread
to which you refer to was talking about average tire lifespan for the
pro circuit, not wheels.

No, it was certainly wheels... I can't seem to find it now, though...

No, you're certainly conflating tire lifespan to wheel lifespan (scroll
to the bottom of the link):
http://www.velonews.com/tour2005/tech/articles/8584.0.html

[snip]

http://tinyurl.com/9ku46

I thought the same but it really seems they change *wheels* very often,
not only tires.

Stephen Greenwood said:

Can you please describe the method you use to determine the thickness
of the rim sidewall? I have a precision caliper, but the hook that
retains the tire bead prevents a direct measurement. I can see how this
problem would be overcome with a micrometer whose anvil and spindle are
smaller than the sidewall height. Is there another way to make this
measurement, without such a micrometer?

Take a piece of wire or metal or something about 1.5-3mm thick,
measure it with the caliper, then lay it where the bead would go
and measure the sum of rim wall thickness plus wire.

Lou D'Amelio said:

All nonsense. The history of this wheel suggests that spoke tension was
improper and it pulled through. Rims last tens of thousands of road
miles (less with sidewall wear if you ride in rain/crud often).

unfortunately this type of failure is common (cracks around the spoke
holes, possibly leading to a spoke pulling through).

almost all the shallow cross section rear rims i've had in the last few
years (Open Pro, Reflex, Ritchey all 32H) have failed in this way,
probably for the reasons which have been discussed for a long time on
r.b.t.

i don't see any common unanodized rims, though velocity does make
powder coated ones.

damyth said:

When you really think logically about it, Mike's account doesn't hold
up. Bike mechanics have always hosed down bikes for cleaning. If they
replace (as in DISPOSE) wheels due to water/bearing damage, why don't
they change out the BB and headset then??

As I take it, bearing damage wasn't the *reason* why the wheels were
replaced... the mechanic was just stating that since the wheels were
replaced after 500 miles anyway, it was unnecessary to worry about
getting water in the bearings.

Maybe you are right, though... maybe Mike misunderstood. Still seems
strange that they'd be carrying around 20+ wheels for each rider...

Quoted message said:

Why don't they just use disposable bikes?

They probably replace those every 1000 miles....

I'd wager that Trek is able to get a advertising tax write off for more
than it costs them to build the wheels... so they have no incentive to
make them last. In that case it is a simple matter of decided what the
most simple and cost effect interval is, and they've determined that
500 miles with no rebuilding is the optimum solution.

On a smaller, lower budget team the economics could be *very*
different...

"Stephen Greenwood" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Typically, several months ago I noticed the brakes had worn my front
MA-2 thin (<0.5mm) so I looked in my stack of rims that people had

Can you please describe the method you use to determine the thickness
of the rim sidewall? I have a precision caliper, but the hook that
retains the tire bead prevents a direct measurement.

These tools, while not common, are available. Essentially you have a
caliper (mine is vernier, but I'm sure there are dial and digital models
made) which has a hooked end. Failing that, the simple way is to place a
small section of keystock against the inside of the rim wall and measure the
combination, then deduct the keystock - just like weighing the cat.

Stephen Greenwood said:

Can you please describe the method you use to determine the thickness
of the rim sidewall? I have a precision caliper, but the hook that
retains the tire bead prevents a direct measurement. I can see how this
problem would be overcome with a micrometer whose anvil and spindle are
smaller than the sidewall height. Is there another way to make this
measurement, without such a micrometer?

Put a ¼" or similar size ball bearing on inside of rim do the
measurement and add the bearing width. I use a caliper.

jobst.brandt said:

Stephen Greenwood writes:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Typically, several months ago I noticed the brakes had worn my
front MA-2 thin (<0.5mm) so I looked in my stack of rims that
people had

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Can you please describe the method you use to determine the thickness
of the rim sidewall? I have a precision caliper, but the hook that
retains the tire bead prevents a direct measurement. I can see how this
problem would be overcome with a micrometer whose anvil and spindle are
smaller than the sidewall height. Is there another way to make this
measurement, without such a micrometer?

Quoted message said:

I don't. I know when the hollow cheeks of an MA-2 are deep enough to
no longer serve safely. I can feel that with my "calibrated finger
tips applied in the shape of a caliper brake. Laying a straight edge
across the brake track will make visible how deep the wear is. The
wall was originally 1.5mm and 0.5mm is the limit. every rim is
probably different.

Rim dimensions (especially sidewall to sidewall) used to be published in
brochures and service manuals, so measurements could be checked against
that. But of course you should be able to tell by brake wear.

Another thing I've noticed -- as rims approach their minimum thickness,
barely detectable bulges form at the spoke holes. These are too small to
measure, but they can be seen as the light reflects off them differently.

Matt O.

Matt O'Toole said:

jobst.brandt said:

Stephen Greenwood writes:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>Typically, several months ago I noticed the brakes had worn my
>front MA-2 thin (<0.5mm) so I looked in my stack of rims that
>people had

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Can you please describe the method you use to determine the thickness
of the rim sidewall? I have a precision caliper, but the hook that
retains the tire bead prevents a direct measurement. I can see how this
problem would be overcome with a micrometer whose anvil and spindle are
smaller than the sidewall height. Is there another way to make this
measurement, without such a micrometer?

Quoted message said:

I don't. I know when the hollow cheeks of an MA-2 are deep enough to
no longer serve safely. I can feel that with my "calibrated finger
tips applied in the shape of a caliper brake. Laying a straight edge
across the brake track will make visible how deep the wear is. The
wall was originally 1.5mm and 0.5mm is the limit. every rim is
probably different.

Rim dimensions (especially sidewall to sidewall) used to be published in
brochures and service manuals, so measurements could be checked against
that. But of course you should be able to tell by brake wear.

Another thing I've noticed -- as rims approach their minimum thickness,
barely detectable bulges form at the spoke holes. These are too small to
measure, but they can be seen as the light reflects off them differently.

I've noticed that the rim sidewalls start to slant from vertical. I
usually also eyeball the gap (concave surface) when I put a metal
straightedge along the wall.

Matt O'Toole said:

jobst.brandt said:

Stephen Greenwood writes:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>Typically, several months ago I noticed the brakes had worn my
>front MA-2 thin (<0.5mm) so I looked in my stack of rims that
>people had

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Can you please describe the method you use to determine the thickness
of the rim sidewall? I have a precision caliper, but the hook that
retains the tire bead prevents a direct measurement. I can see how this
problem would be overcome with a micrometer whose anvil and spindle are
smaller than the sidewall height. Is there another way to make this
measurement, without such a micrometer?

Quoted message said:

I don't. I know when the hollow cheeks of an MA-2 are deep enough to
no longer serve safely. I can feel that with my "calibrated finger
tips applied in the shape of a caliper brake. Laying a straight edge
across the brake track will make visible how deep the wear is. The
wall was originally 1.5mm and 0.5mm is the limit. every rim is
probably different.

Rim dimensions (especially sidewall to sidewall) used to be published in
brochures and service manuals, so measurements could be checked against
that. But of course you should be able to tell by brake wear.

Another thing I've noticed -- as rims approach their minimum thickness,
barely detectable bulges form at the spoke holes. These are too small to
measure, but they can be seen as the light reflects off them differently.

I've noticed that the rim sidewalls start to slant from vertical. I
usually also eyeball the gap (concave surface) when I put a metal
straightedge along the wall.

Peter Cole said:

Quoted message said:

Rim dimensions (especially sidewall to sidewall) used to be
published in brochures and service manuals, so measurements could
be checked against that. But of course you should be able to tell
by brake wear.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Another thing I've noticed -- as rims approach their minimum
thickness, barely detectable bulges form at the spoke holes. These
are too small to measure, but they can be seen as the light
reflects off them differently.

In the days of dark anodized sidewalls, this was visible as bare areas
where the anodizing wore off faster than between spokes, giving a
shadow pattern on the brake path.

Quoted message said:

I've noticed that the rim sidewalls start to slant from vertical. I
usually also eyeball the gap (concave surface) when I put a metal
straight edge along the wall.

I don't think that is what it appears to be. The hollow cheeks make
that appear so but I measured cast off worn rims and found them to
have the same dimensions as new ones. The certainly look that way but
appearances can deceive.

Jobst Brandt

Quoted message said:

Couldn't "switch wheels" mean they get used wheels installed? Maybe the
mechanics will check them out and put them back into circulation again
later (after the tour)?

The 'science of lance armstrong' documentary said that they get new wheels
every couple of stages, which would be twice a week.

Jasper

Quoted message said:

Peter Cole <[email hidden]> writes:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I've noticed that the rim sidewalls start to slant from vertical. I
usually also eyeball the gap (concave surface) when I put a metal
straight edge along the wall.

I don't think that is what it appears to be. The hollow cheeks make
that appear so but I measured cast off worn rims and found them to
have the same dimensions as new ones. The certainly look that way but
appearances can deceive.

Did you measure them with a tyre in place? They could be deforming
elastically rather than plastically.

Jasper

Jasper Janssen said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I've noticed that the rim sidewalls start to slant from vertical.
I usually also eyeball the gap (concave surface) when I put a
metal straight edge along the wall.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I don't think that is what it appears to be. The hollow cheeks
make that appear so, but I measured cast off worn rims and found
them to have the same dimensions as new ones. They certainly look
that way but appearances can deceive.

Quoted message said:

Did you measure them with a tyre in place? They could be deforming
elastically rather than plastically.

If that were the case, they would crack in a hurry. Consider the
change in lateral force as the wheel passes the road contact point.

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/rim-support.html

Jobst Brandt

Jasper Janssen said:

Quoted message said:

Couldn't "switch wheels" mean they get used wheels installed? Maybe the
mechanics will check them out and put them back into circulation again
later (after the tour)?

The 'science of lance armstrong' documentary said that they get new wheels
every couple of stages, which would be twice a week.

Jasper

Sigh....

I don't know whether Team Discovery get brand spanking new wheels ever
two wheels or not. But if you put two and two together, I'd wager they
don't get brand spanking new wheels every two weeks. What they do get
are brand spanking new TIRES every week, at the minimum.

Pros still ride on tubulars almost exclusively despite any marketing
claims to the contrary. That means in order to get new tires you
REPLACE wheels. That doesn't say the wheel is brand spanking new.

As every mechanic knows, glue on tubulars takes time to cure. And you
don't want to glue tubulars on bare new rims if you can avoid it, as
the old substrate actually helps to provide better adhesion. What pros
have are a "pool" of wheels, with various types of tires (pre)glued on,
depending on course conditions. No mechanic wants to hand a pro a
wheel with tires glued on from the previous night.

It's a common occurrence to change wheels every day. That does not
mean the wheels are brand spanking new every time. It does mean that
the tires are new.

Observer: How often do you change tires?
Mech: We don't keep track of tires (we use tubulars), but we change
wheels all the time (due to course/weather conditions). But at the
minimum we change over the whole team's wheels every two weeks.

I believe this is the "proper" interpretation.

Da Myth (appropriately named) said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Couldn't "switch wheels" mean they get used wheels installed?
Maybe the mechanics will check them out and put them back into
circulation again later (after the tour)?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The 'science of Lance Armstrong' documentary said that they get new
wheels every couple of stages, which would be twice a week.

Quoted message said:

Sigh....

Here, take this tissue and don't drip on the KBD.

Quoted message said:

I don't know whether Team Discovery get brand spanking new wheels
ever two wheels or not. But if you put two and two together, I'd
wager they don't get brand spanking new wheels every two weeks.
What they do get are brand spanking new TIRES every week, at the
minimum.

Quoted message said:

Pros still ride on tubulars almost exclusively despite any marketing
claims to the contrary. That means in order to get new tires you
REPLACE wheels. That doesn't say the wheel is brand spanking new.

Quoted message said:

As every mechanic knows, glue on tubulars takes time to cure. And
you don't want to glue tubulars on bare new rims if you can avoid
it, as the old substrate actually helps to provide better adhesion.
What pros have are a "pool" of wheels, with various types of tires
(pre)glued on, depending on course conditions. No mechanic wants to
hand a pro a wheel with tires glued on from the previous night.

From this I take it Myth does not ride tubulars or at least never
learned how to mount them. It's much like patching tires, the glue
goes on, it is allowed to dry and the tire is mounted and pumped up
hard. There is so much myth and lore about tubulars and stories like
these keep all that alive for those who never lived in the days when
there were not other reasonable tires other than tubulars..

Quoted message said:

It's a common occurrence to change wheels every day. That does not
mean the wheels are brand spanking new every time. It does mean
that the tires are new.

Quoted message said:

Observer: How often do you change tires?
Mech: We don't keep track of tires (we use tubulars), but we change
wheels all the time (due to course/weather conditions). But at the
minimum we change over the whole team's wheels every two weeks.

Quoted message said:

I believe this is the "proper" interpretation.

Sounds like a belief all right. Don't make this stuff up and pass it
on as fact.

Jobst Brandt

Quoted message said:

Da Myth (appropriately named) said:

Quoted message said:

> Couldn't "switch wheels" mean they get used wheels installed?
> Maybe the mechanics will check them out and put them back into
> circulation again later (after the tour)?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The 'science of Lance Armstrong' documentary said that they get new
wheels every couple of stages, which would be twice a week.

Quoted message said:

Sigh....

Here, take this tissue and don't drip on the KBD.

Quoted message said:

I don't know whether Team Discovery get brand spanking new wheels
ever two wheels or not. But if you put two and two together, I'd
wager they don't get brand spanking new wheels every two weeks.
What they do get are brand spanking new TIRES every week, at the
minimum.

Quoted message said:

Pros still ride on tubulars almost exclusively despite any marketing
claims to the contrary. That means in order to get new tires you
REPLACE wheels. That doesn't say the wheel is brand spanking new.

Quoted message said:

As every mechanic knows, glue on tubulars takes time to cure. And
you don't want to glue tubulars on bare new rims if you can avoid
it, as the old substrate actually helps to provide better adhesion.
What pros have are a "pool" of wheels, with various types of tires
(pre)glued on, depending on course conditions. No mechanic wants to
hand a pro a wheel with tires glued on from the previous night.

From this I take it Myth does not ride tubulars or at least never
learned how to mount them. It's much like patching tires, the glue
goes on, it is allowed to dry and the tire is mounted and pumped up
hard. There is so much myth and lore about tubulars and stories like
these keep all that alive for those who never lived in the days when
there were not other reasonable tires other than tubulars..

Quoted message said:

It's a common occurrence to change wheels every day. That does not
mean the wheels are brand spanking new every time. It does mean
that the tires are new.

Quoted message said:

Observer: How often do you change tires?
Mech: We don't keep track of tires (we use tubulars), but we change
wheels all the time (due to course/weather conditions). But at the
minimum we change over the whole team's wheels every two weeks.

Quoted message said:

I believe this is the "proper" interpretation.

Sounds like a belief all right. Don't make this stuff up and pass it
on as fact.

What specifically are you claiming that I "made up?" I don't know
what you're taking issues, so I can't address them. If you're more
specific. Are you contending that a mechanic would hand a rider a
freshly glued on tire? That there isn't a pool of wheels with tires
already glued on? That it's better to use a new rim every time you
have a tire change? What?

Quoted message said:

Jobst Brandt

Da Myth (appropriately named) said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Pros still ride on tubulars almost exclusively despite any
marketing claims to the contrary. That means in order to get new
tires you REPLACE wheels. That doesn't say the wheel is brand
spanking new.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

As every mechanic knows, glue on tubulars takes time to cure. And
you don't want to glue tubulars on bare new rims if you can avoid
it, as the old substrate actually helps to provide better
adhesion. What pros have are a "pool" of wheels, with various
types of tires (pre)glued on, depending on course conditions. No
mechanic wants to hand a pro a wheel with tires glued on from the
previous night.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

From this I take it Myth does not ride tubulars or at least never
learned how to mount them. It's much like patching tires, the glue
goes on, it is allowed to dry and the tire is mounted and pumped up
hard. There is so much myth and lore about tubulars and stories
like these keep all that alive for those who never lived in the
days when there were not other reasonable tires other than
tubulars.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It's a common occurrence to change wheels every day. That does
not mean the wheels are brand spanking new every time. It does
mean that the tires are new.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Observer: How often do you change tires?
Mech: We don't keep track of tires (we use tubulars), but we
change wheels all the time (due to course/weather conditions).
But at the minimum we change over the whole team's wheels every
two weeks.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I believe this is the "proper" interpretation.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Sounds like a belief all right. Don't make this stuff up and pass
it on as fact.

Quoted message said:

What specifically are you claiming that I "made up?"

The dodge "I believe" is from your imagination as is the rest of your
tubular use and wheel service, although it is made to sound like an
eye witness account.

Quoted message said:

I don't know what you're taking issues, so I can't address them. If
you're more specific. Are you contending that a mechanic would hand
a rider a freshly glued on tire? That there isn't a pool of wheels
with tires already glued on? That it's better to use a new rim
every time you have a tire change? What?

The implication of "freshly glued" and what that means is the same as
the rest of your story. A freshly glued tire is as good as one that's
been on the rim for days if it has been done correctly. The way you
say that you try to make it sound like the tire is on a layer of fresh
wet glue out of the tube.

The leading question:

"Are you contending that a mechanic would hand a rider a freshly glued
on tire?"

is classic for these romantic tubular tales. What I said about
mounting tubular tires is unambiguously stated above.

You're dodging!

Jobst Brandt

Quoted message said:

Da Myth (appropriately named) said:

Quoted message said:

> Pros still ride on tubulars almost exclusively despite any
> marketing claims to the contrary. That means in order to get new
> tires you REPLACE wheels. That doesn't say the wheel is brand
> spanking new.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> As every mechanic knows, glue on tubulars takes time to cure. And
> you don't want to glue tubulars on bare new rims if you can avoid
> it, as the old substrate actually helps to provide better
> adhesion. What pros have are a "pool" of wheels, with various
> types of tires (pre)glued on, depending on course conditions. No
> mechanic wants to hand a pro a wheel with tires glued on from the
> previous night.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

From this I take it Myth does not ride tubulars or at least never
learned how to mount them. It's much like patching tires, the glue
goes on, it is allowed to dry and the tire is mounted and pumped up
hard. There is so much myth and lore about tubulars and stories
like these keep all that alive for those who never lived in the
days when there were not other reasonable tires other than
tubulars.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> It's a common occurrence to change wheels every day. That does
> not mean the wheels are brand spanking new every time. It does
> mean that the tires are new.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Observer: How often do you change tires?
> Mech: We don't keep track of tires (we use tubulars), but we
> change wheels all the time (due to course/weather conditions).
> But at the minimum we change over the whole team's wheels every
> two weeks.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> I believe this is the "proper" interpretation.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Sounds like a belief all right. Don't make this stuff up and pass
it on as fact.

Quoted message said:

What specifically are you claiming that I "made up?"

The dodge "I believe" is from your imagination as is the rest of your
tubular use and wheel service, although it is made to sound like an
eye witness account.

Quoted message said:

I don't know what you're taking issues, so I can't address them. If
you're more specific. Are you contending that a mechanic would hand
a rider a freshly glued on tire? That there isn't a pool of wheels
with tires already glued on? That it's better to use a new rim
every time you have a tire change? What?

The implication of "freshly glued" and what that means is the same as
the rest of your story. A freshly glued tire is as good as one that's
been on the rim for days if it has been done correctly. The way you
say that you try to make it sound like the tire is on a layer of fresh
wet glue out of the tube.

Read what I wrote. I wrote "no mechanic wants to hand a pro a tire
glued on the previous night." I didn't say or imply that a tire that
has been glued for say 2 weeks has better adhesion than one that has
only been glued by one week. I *did* imply you don't want to use a
newly glued-on tire if less than 1 day has passed, if you can avoid it.
There is no question in my mind you don't want to use a tire if it's
been glued on less than one day.

Howat also address curing time in this study. I am not qualified to
comment how valid it is.
http://www.engr.ku.edu/ktl/bicycle/Part5.pdf
http://www.engr.ku.edu/ktl/bicycle/Part6.pdf

When I said "I believe" I was referring to various comments made by
representatives of Discovery Team, as I cited earlier:
http://www.velonews.com/tour2005/tech/articles/8584.0.html

And as to wheel change due to conditions, you can find substantiation
here:
http://www.dailypeloton.com/displayarticle.asp?pk=8201
"...After the race all the bikes are washed, checked over and oiled,
tyres are changed and often the wheels are changed.he amount of work
and changes depends on whether the following day's stage is on a flat
course or a mountain course. There are three types of wheels, one for
bad weather and two sets of carbons, one for the mountains and one for
the flat. This means that you can be changing wheels every day
depending on the course and weather. [I now realise why the organisers
always supply the teams with a weather forecast for the following
day.]"

Tell me again how I'm dodging.

Quoted message said:

The leading question:

"Are you contending that a mechanic would hand a rider a freshly glued
on tire?"

is classic for these romantic tubular tales. What I said about
mounting tubular tires is unambiguously stated above.

You're dodging!

Jobst Brandt

Da Myth (appropriately named) said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> Pros still ride on tubulars almost exclusively despite any
>> marketing claims to the contrary. That means in order to get
>> new tires you REPLACE wheels. That doesn't say the wheel is
>> brand spanking new.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> As every mechanic knows, glue on tubulars takes time to cure.
>> And you don't want to glue tubulars on bare new rims if you can
>> avoid it, as the old substrate actually helps to provide better
>> adhesion. What pros have are a "pool" of wheels, with various
>> types of tires (pre)glued on, depending on course conditions.
>> No mechanic wants to hand a pro a wheel with tires glued on from
>> the previous night.

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> From this I take it Myth does not ride tubulars or at least never
> learned how to mount them. It's much like patching tires, the
> glue goes on, it is allowed to dry and the tire is mounted and
> pumped up hard. There is so much myth and lore about tubulars
> and stories like these keep all that alive for those who never
> lived in the days when there were not other reasonable tires
> other than tubulars.

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>> It's a common occurrence to change wheels every day. That does
>> not mean the wheels are brand spanking new every time. It does
>> mean that the tires are new.

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>> Observer: How often do you change tires? Mech: We don't keep
>> track of tires (we use tubulars), but we change wheels all the
>> time (due to course/weather conditions). But at the minimum we
>> change over the whole team's wheels every two weeks.

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>> I believe this is the "proper" interpretation.

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> Sounds like a belief all right. Don't make this stuff up and
> pass it on as fact.

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What specifically are you claiming that I "made up?"

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The dodge "I believe" is from your imagination as is the rest of
your tubular use and wheel service, although it is made to sound
like an eye witness account.

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I don't know what you're taking issues, so I can't address them.
If you're more specific. Are you contending that a mechanic would
hand a rider a freshly glued on tire? That there isn't a pool of
wheels with tires already glued on? That it's better to use a new
rim every time you have a tire change? What?

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The implication of "freshly glued" and what that means is the same
as the rest of your story. A freshly glued tire is as good as one
that's been on the rim for days if it has been done correctly. The
way you say that you try to make it sound like the tire is on a
layer of fresh wet glue out of the tube.

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Read what I wrote. I wrote "no mechanic wants to hand a pro a tire
glued on the previous night." I didn't say or imply that a tire that
has been glued for say 2 weeks has better adhesion than one that has
only been glued by one week. I *did* imply you don't want to use a
newly glued-on tire if less than 1 day has passed, if you can avoid
it. There is no question in my mind you don't want to use a tire if
it's been glued on less than one day.

I see you don't use tubulars or you wouldn't defer to other's hearsay
evidence. You are giving your interpretation to something you
apparently don't know much about yourself. Rolled tires are not a
major problem with riding tubulars. Tires generally roll when a tire
goes flat in a curve, at which time it doesn't matter anyway if the
wheel is sling sideways.

In all the years of riding tubulars with my bikie friends, I cannot
recall a single rolled tire that didn't occur from a flat and those
were probably two or three in twenty years. The tire rolling fear
comes from people who don't use tubulars as a regular part of their
riding or those who belatedly took them up to be different.

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Howat also address curing time in this study. I am not qualified to
comment how valid it is.
http://www.engr.ku.edu/ktl/bicycle/Part5.pdf
http://www.engr.ku.edu/ktl/bicycle/Part6.pdf

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When I said "I believe" I was referring to various comments made by
representatives of Discovery Team, as I cited earlier:
http://www.velonews.com/tour2005/tech/articles/8584.0.html

Well? Is that how we should be getting authoritative information about
using tubular tires? I don't think so.

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And as to wheel change due to conditions, you can find
substantiation here:

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http://www.dailypeloton.com/displayarticle.asp?pk=8201

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"...After the race all the bikes are washed, checked over and oiled,
tyres are changed and often the wheels are changed.he amount of work
and changes depends on whether the following day's stage is on a
flat course or a mountain course. There are three types of wheels,
one for bad weather and two sets of carbons, one for the mountains
and one for the flat. This means that you can be changing wheels
every day depending on the course and weather. [I now realise why
the organisers always supply the teams with a weather forecast for
the following day.]"

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Tell me again how I'm dodging.

This begins to sound more and more like a book report. You are
dodging because you don't know the answers but are guessing based on
the various sources you seem to have dug up.

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The leading question:

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"Are you contending that a mechanic would hand a rider a freshly
glued on tire?"

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is classic for these romantic tubular tales. What I said about
mounting tubular tires is unambiguously stated above.

You're still dodging!

Jobst Brandt