Rim failure. Common?

See the MA3 thread below ;-)

K2 said:

Yesterday I noticed that the rear wheel (Bontrager Race Lite) on my 16
month old Trek 52k had a worsening wobble. Taking it into the LBS I
purchased it from for (another) consultation they found that the rim had
failed at a spoke eyelet... i.e., trashed.
Mechanic says that this isn't a to uncommon occurrence given the higher
spoke tension coupled with lighter alloys that go into such a wheel and
if I'm riding on it "a lot" then it increases such chances. Okay, so I
actually ride my bike... sue me!
Historically this wheel had problems early on. It had to be redished
within the first week and has been in at least twice for a truing to
which never seemed to get it completely straight claiming that this was
virtually impossible given the reduced number of spokes.

rubbish.

Quoted message said:

I suspect that
this had failed even earlier but went undetected and was made worse with
their attempts at truing it but of course I can't prove this. This bike
has not been abused, as I use it for road riding mainly on normal
blacktop averaging maybe 90-150 miles per week, mostly to and from work.
Should this really be considered a "Not too uncommon" event? Should such
a wheel not be used for daily use as it's too brittle for such an
application? It doesn't appear to be marketed this way.
And, now that I'm apparently in the market for a new set of wheels (they
can build up the same rear wheel for me for ~$110 which I'm thinking of
avoiding) any recommendations?

thanks for listenting!

i think your problem is your lbs, not the wheel. i'd buy a replacement
name brand pre-built wheel mail order and put it on my bike myself.

low spoke count is not the issue. i weigh #205 and run two low spoke
pairs of wheels - shimano r540 & mavic cosmos. both are perfectly true
and have never been touched by a bike shop [or me for that matter].
friends otoh, have had almost unlimited problems with the exact same
wheels - constantly needing to be re-trued. one gave me a wheel - as in
"i don't want this [censored] any more". his lbs had messed with it every
couple of weeks for /months/. i re-trued it properly with correct
tension & gave it back to him. he's now been running it for nearly 6
months without any further problems. you go ahead and figure out the
connection. meanwhile, /i/ get the blame for him wasting money on the
new replacement he didn't need to buy. there's no pleasing some people.

K2 said:

Yesterday I noticed that the rear wheel (Bontrager Race Lite) on my 16
month old Trek 52k had a worsening wobble. Taking it into the LBS I
purchased it from for (another) consultation they found that the rim had
failed at a spoke eyelet... i.e., trashed.
Mechanic says that this isn't a to uncommon occurrence given the higher
spoke tension coupled with lighter alloys that go into such a wheel and
if I'm riding on it "a lot" then it increases such chances. Okay, so I
actually ride my bike... sue me!
Historically this wheel had problems early on. It had to be redished
within the first week and has been in at least twice for a truing to
which never seemed to get it completely straight claiming that this was
virtually impossible given the reduced number of spokes. I suspect that
this had failed even earlier but went undetected and was made worse with
their attempts at truing it but of course I can't prove this. This bike
has not been abused, as I use it for road riding mainly on normal
blacktop averaging maybe 90-150 miles per week, mostly to and from work.
Should this really be considered a "Not too uncommon" event? Should such
a wheel not be used for daily use as it's too brittle for such an
application? It doesn't appear to be marketed this way.
And, now that I'm apparently in the market for a new set of wheels (they
can build up the same rear wheel for me for ~$110 which I'm thinking of
avoiding) any recommendations?

Bontrager rims are pretty soft to begin with, I wore through the
sidewall of one in a summer. Road wheels should last a long time (I've
heard of rims lasting over 10,000 miles). Find a better LBS, one that
knows how to work on wheels, and get better rims. Peter @ Vecchio's
might be a good person to call.

My 0.02, some may not agree - but I really don't care.

-Nate

All nonsense. The history of this wheel suggests that spoke tension was
improper and it pulled through. Rims last tens of thousands of road
miles (less with sidewall wear if you ride in rain/crud often). If
you're not racing and don't need the absolute lightest disposable
wheels, get a good set of handbuilts. Last forever, easy to maintain.

Lou D'Amelio

"K2" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Yesterday I noticed that the rear wheel (Bontrager Race Lite) on my 16
month old Trek 52k had a worsening wobble. Taking it into the LBS I
purchased it from for (another) consultation they found that the rim had
failed at a spoke eyelet... i.e., trashed.
Mechanic says that this isn't a to uncommon occurrence given the higher
spoke tension coupled with lighter alloys that go into such a wheel and if
I'm riding on it "a lot" then it increases such chances. Okay, so I
actually ride my bike... sue me!
Historically this wheel had problems early on. It had to be redished
within the first week and has been in at least twice for a truing to which
never seemed to get it completely straight claiming that this was
virtually impossible given the reduced number of spokes. I suspect that
this had failed even earlier but went undetected and was made worse with
their attempts at truing it but of course I can't prove this. This bike
has not been abused, as I use it for road riding mainly on normal blacktop
averaging maybe 90-150 miles per week, mostly to and from work. Should
this really be considered a "Not too uncommon" event? Should such a wheel
not be used for daily use as it's too brittle for such an application? It
doesn't appear to be marketed this way.
And, now that I'm apparently in the market for a new set of wheels (they
can build up the same rear wheel for me for ~$110 which I'm thinking of
avoiding) any recommendations?

thanks for listenting!

--
If replying directly, please remove the
cleverly decorated addition to my return address.

--
If replying directly, please remove the
cleverly decorated addition to my return address.

I bought my current bike some years ago. I had endless trouble keeping the
rear rim straight. I fiddled with it about once a month. I finally bought a
new rim and installed it on the old hub with the old spokes. It was the
first wheel I ever laced and it has was trouble free until I trashed it in a
crash. It turned out that the old rim had a slight kink (picture an "S"
wave in the plane of the rim). Apparently, it was too much for the spokes to
keep straight. I don't know how the rim became crooked but I suspect it
happened before I got it since I had trouble with it from day one.

I would opine that the most probable cause of your rim trouble was a damaged
rim, a defective rim and/or a poor mechanic.

K2 said:

Historically this wheel had problems early on. It had to be redished
within the first week and has been in at least twice for a truing to
which never seemed to get it completely straight claiming that this was
virtually impossible given the reduced number of spokes.

This is true only if the rim is not straight. If the rim itself isn't
true, then trying to true it by varying the spoke tension is a very bad
idea. What exactly do you mean be "redished"?

Quoted message said:

I suspect that
this had failed even earlier but went undetected and was made worse with
their attempts at truing it but of course I can't prove this.

It is possible that they overtensioned the wheel to compensate for a
bad rim.

Quoted message said:

This bike
has not been abused, as I use it for road riding mainly on normal
blacktop averaging maybe 90-150 miles per week, mostly to and from work.
Should this really be considered a "Not too uncommon" event?

With less than 10k miles I certainly wouldn't be satisfied, but I don't
know what others have experienced with these wheels.

Quoted message said:

Should such
a wheel not be used for daily use as it's too brittle for such an
application? It doesn't appear to be marketed this way.

The name "Race Lite" wouldn't lead me to think of it as a commuter
wheel, but they also make several lighter versions that the real racers
use... so I wouldn't expect this model to be unsuitable for daily use.
For commuting I think you'd be much better served by regular
inexpensive... and durable wheels. It is also good to learn how to tune
wheels yourself... then if something goes wrong, you know who to
blame...

....the manufacturer!

Dan who? said:

I bought my current bike some years ago. I had endless trouble
keeping the rear rim straight. I fiddled with it about once a
month. I finally bought a new rim and installed it on the old hub
with the old spokes. It was the first wheel I ever laced and it has
was trouble free until I trashed it in a crash. It turned out that
the old rim had a slight kink (picture an "S" wave in the plane of
the rim). Apparently, it was too much for the spokes to keep
straight. I don't know how the rim became crooked but I suspect it
happened before I got it since I had trouble with it from day one.

That's too bad, because your first rim could probably have served you
as well. Had you plucked spokes with your fingernail, the disparity
in tension caused by such a deformation, would have been acoustically
apparent and you could have straightened it so the spokes had equal
tension. You didn't say what brand and weight the rim was, but I
suspect it was reasonably usable.

Typically, several months ago I noticed the brakes had worn my front
MA-2 thin (<0.5mm) so I looked in my stack of rims that people had
discarded for various reasons, and found a near new MA-40 that was
warped in a smooth "S". I transferred my spokes from the worn out
MA-2 to this rim and straightened it before bringing it to full
tension. It has been working as well as a new rim for a few thousand
miles.

Quoted message said:

I would opine that the most probable cause of your rim trouble was a
damaged rim, a defective rim and/or a poor mechanic.

If it hasn't got a kink, it can easily be straightened and made "as
good as new." I've done it often.

Jobst Brandt

K2 said:

Yesterday I noticed that the rear wheel (Bontrager Race Lite) on my 16
month old Trek 52k had a worsening wobble. Taking it into the LBS I
purchased it from for (another) consultation they found that the rim
had failed at a spoke eyelet... i.e., trashed.
Mechanic says that this isn't a to uncommon occurrence given the
higher spoke tension coupled with lighter alloys that go into such a
wheel and if I'm riding on it "a lot" then it increases such chances.
Okay, so I actually ride my bike... sue me!
Historically this wheel had problems early on. It had to be redished
within the first week and has been in at least twice for a truing to
which never seemed to get it completely straight claiming that this
was virtually impossible given the reduced number of spokes. I
suspect that this had failed even earlier but went undetected and was
made worse with their attempts at truing it but of course I can't
prove this. This bike has not been abused, as I use it for road
riding mainly on normal blacktop averaging maybe 90-150 miles per
week, mostly to and from work. Should this really be considered a
"Not too uncommon" event? Should such a wheel not be used for daily
use as it's too brittle for such an application? It doesn't appear to
be marketed this way. And, now that I'm apparently in the market for a new set
of wheels
(they can build up the same rear wheel for me for ~$110 which I'm
thinking of avoiding) any recommendations?

thanks for listenting!

--
If replying directly, please remove the
cleverly decorated addition to my return address.

Unfortunately I have a set of these rims too. They have about 4000 miles on
them and I have had to retrue the back three times and the front five times. I
don't know what your weight is but I'm around 195 lbs. and I don't think these
wheels can handle that much weight. I used to build wheels and I'm fairly good
at getting the tension equal and the rim running true but these wheels seem to
constantly lose spoke tension. I came back from a ride once and saw the front
rim out of true and found one of the spokes was so loose that I could move it
back and forth over 1/4". I only paid $250 for the set but I don't think they
are even worth that. I would definately look at some other wheel sets with a
minimum of 32 spokes.

Neal

Lou D'Amelio said:

All nonsense. The history of this wheel suggests that spoke tension was
improper and it pulled through. Rims last tens of thousands of road
miles (less with sidewall wear if you ride in rain/crud often). If
you're not racing and don't need the absolute lightest disposable
wheels, get a good set of handbuilts. Last forever, easy to maintain.

Lou D'Amelio

handbuilts are only good if the person that builds them is good. and in
my experience, there's *very* few people out there who are prepared to
spend the time, or even /have the skill/ to build a good long-term
reliable wheel. otherwise, the o.p. is back in the same position they
were before - constantly having to get the wheel re-trued.

imo, there are two good reasons to buy pre-built "brand" wheels:

1. much better chance of it being right first time, and if not messed
with by the lbs, stay right.

2. [and this is not a big deal but something i appreciate commuting
across the golden gate bridge] lower spoke count is better in cross winds.

Hi,

I also have Bontrager race lite rims, 20 spokes front and 24 spokes rear,
on my Trek 2300. I have close to 2000 miles on them and they're almost as
true as when they were new. I'm real pleased with them. I weigh 140 which
may make a difference.

Bob P.

"Neal" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

K2 said:

Yesterday I noticed that the rear wheel (Bontrager Race Lite) on my 16
month old Trek 52k had a worsening wobble. Taking it into the LBS I
purchased it from for (another) consultation they found that the rim
had failed at a spoke eyelet... i.e., trashed.
Mechanic says that this isn't a to uncommon occurrence given the
higher spoke tension coupled with lighter alloys that go into such a
wheel and if I'm riding on it "a lot" then it increases such chances.
Okay, so I actually ride my bike... sue me!
Historically this wheel had problems early on. It had to be redished
within the first week and has been in at least twice for a truing to
which never seemed to get it completely straight claiming that this
was virtually impossible given the reduced number of spokes. I
suspect that this had failed even earlier but went undetected and was
made worse with their attempts at truing it but of course I can't
prove this. This bike has not been abused, as I use it for road
riding mainly on normal blacktop averaging maybe 90-150 miles per
week, mostly to and from work. Should this really be considered a
"Not too uncommon" event? Should such a wheel not be used for daily
use as it's too brittle for such an application? It doesn't appear to
be marketed this way. And, now that I'm apparently in the market for a
new set of wheels
(they can build up the same rear wheel for me for ~$110 which I'm
thinking of avoiding) any recommendations?

thanks for listenting!

--
If replying directly, please remove the
cleverly decorated addition to my return address.

Unfortunately I have a set of these rims too. They have about 4000 miles
on them and I have had to retrue the back three times and the front five
times. I don't know what your weight is but I'm around 195 lbs. and I
don't think these wheels can handle that much weight. I used to build
wheels and I'm fairly good at getting the tension equal and the rim
running true but these wheels seem to constantly lose spoke tension. I
came back from a ride once and saw the front rim out of true and found one
of the spokes was so loose that I could move it back and forth over 1/4".
I only paid $250 for the set but I don't think they are even worth that.
I would definately look at some other wheel sets with a minimum of 32
spokes.

Neal

Neal Neal said:

Unfortunately I have a set of these rims too. They have about 4000
miles on them and I have had to retrue the back three times and the
front five times. I don't know what your weight is but I'm around
195 lbs, and I don't think these wheels can handle that much weight.
I used to build wheels and I'm fairly good at getting the tension
equal and the rim running true but these wheels seem to constantly
lose spoke tension. I came back from a ride once and saw the front
rim out of true and found one of the spokes was so loose that I
could move it back and forth over 1/4". I only paid $250 for the
set but I don't think they are even worth that. I would definately
look at some other wheel sets with a minimum of 32 spokes.

What you describe are wheels whose spokes are too loose from the
start. Spoke nipples can only unscrew, which yours are doing, when
slackened repeatedly from road shock. If the rims will not endure
more tension, then you probably have too few spokes for the job. Why
are you riding these anemic wheels?

# 42 reviews [rated] 4.5 of 5 MSRP: $ 449.00

# Description

# Rims are welded for superior strength and machined for smooth
# braking Rear hub is Swiss made, fully serviceable, with a
# combination of cartridge and needle bearings; torque sharing design
# improves wheel stiffness and wheel life, while steel freehub body
# will not get marred up with use

# Front hub has large cartridge bearings and an oversized aluminum
# axle Spokes are 14G bladed stainless steel; J-bend type allows for
# replacement with any standard 14G spoke in a pinch Bontrager Race
# Lite Road Cro-moly skewers included Weight: 740/1020 grams

"Superior strength..." You must believe less is more, or is it Less
costs more.

Jobst Brandt

Quoted message said:

Neal Neal said:

Unfortunately I have a set of these rims too. They have about 4000
miles on them and I have had to retrue the back three times and the
front five times. I don't know what your weight is but I'm around
195 lbs, and I don't think these wheels can handle that much weight.
I used to build wheels and I'm fairly good at getting the tension
equal and the rim running true but these wheels seem to constantly
lose spoke tension. I came back from a ride once and saw the front
rim out of true and found one of the spokes was so loose that I
could move it back and forth over 1/4". I only paid $250 for the
set but I don't think they are even worth that. I would definately
look at some other wheel sets with a minimum of 32 spokes.

What you describe are wheels whose spokes are too loose from the
start. Spoke nipples can only unscrew, which yours are doing, when
slackened repeatedly from road shock. If the rims will not endure
more tension, then you probably have too few spokes for the job. Why
are you riding these anemic wheels?

# 42 reviews [rated] 4.5 of 5 MSRP: $ 449.00

# Description

# Rims are welded for superior strength and machined for smooth
# braking Rear hub is Swiss made, fully serviceable, with a
# combination of cartridge and needle bearings; torque sharing design
# improves wheel stiffness and wheel life, while steel freehub body
# will not get marred up with use

# Front hub has large cartridge bearings and an oversized aluminum
# axle Spokes are 14G bladed stainless steel; J-bend type allows for
# replacement with any standard 14G spoke in a pinch Bontrager Race
# Lite Road Cro-moly skewers included Weight: 740/1020 grams

"Superior strength..." You must believe less is more, or is it Less
costs more.

Jobst Brandt

"*Rims* are welded for superior strength". [my emphasis.] so jobst,
please tell us, just what /exactly/ do welded rims contribute to the
unscrewing of spokes?

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Neal Neal said:

Unfortunately I have a set of these rims too. They have about 4000
miles on them and I have had to retrue the back three times and the
front five times. I don't know what your weight is but I'm around
195 lbs, and I don't think these wheels can handle that much weight.
I used to build wheels and I'm fairly good at getting the tension
equal and the rim running true but these wheels seem to constantly
lose spoke tension. I came back from a ride once and saw the front
rim out of true and found one of the spokes was so loose that I
could move it back and forth over 1/4". I only paid $250 for the
set but I don't think they are even worth that. I would definately
look at some other wheel sets with a minimum of 32 spokes.

What you describe are wheels whose spokes are too loose from the
start. Spoke nipples can only unscrew, which yours are doing, when
slackened repeatedly from road shock. If the rims will not endure
more tension, then you probably have too few spokes for the job. Why
are you riding these anemic wheels?

# 42 reviews [rated] 4.5 of 5 MSRP: $ 449.00

# Description

# Rims are welded for superior strength and machined for smooth
# braking Rear hub is Swiss made, fully serviceable, with a
# combination of cartridge and needle bearings; torque sharing design
# improves wheel stiffness and wheel life, while steel freehub body
# will not get marred up with use

# Front hub has large cartridge bearings and an oversized aluminum
# axle Spokes are 14G bladed stainless steel; J-bend type allows for
# replacement with any standard 14G spoke in a pinch Bontrager Race
# Lite Road Cro-moly skewers included Weight: 740/1020 grams

"Superior strength..." You must believe less is more, or is it Less
costs more.

Jobst Brandt

Why am I riding these anemic wheels? I made a mistake when upgrading my bike
last year by thinking that these wheels were a good deal. This is a mistake I
will never make again! I built five sets of wheels using your book as a guide.
I can't remember what years I built the wheels but the book is the first
edition. I still have two of those sets and they are as true today as they were
when I built them which was at least twenty years ago. Of course those are 36
spoke wheels. My next set of wheels will have a minimum of 32 spokes.

Neal

jobst.brandt said:

Dan who? said:

I bought my current bike some years ago. I had endless trouble keeping
the rear rim straight. I fiddled with it about once a month. I
finally bought a new rim and installed it on the old hub with the old
spokes. It was the first wheel I ever laced and it has was trouble
free until I trashed it in a crash. It turned out that the old rim had
a slight kink (picture an "S" wave in the plane of the rim).
Apparently, it was too much for the spokes to keep straight. I don't
know how the rim became crooked but I suspect it happened before I got
it since I had trouble with it from day one.

That's too bad, because your first rim could probably have served you as
well. Had you plucked spokes with your fingernail, the disparity in
tension caused by such a deformation, would have been acoustically
apparent and you could have straightened it so the spokes had equal
tension. You didn't say what brand and weight the rim was, but I
suspect it was reasonably usable.

Typically, several months ago I noticed the brakes had worn my front
MA-2 thin (<0.5mm) so I looked in my stack of rims that people had
discarded for various reasons, and found a near new MA-40 that was
warped in a smooth "S". I transferred my spokes from the worn out MA-2
to this rim and straightened it before bringing it to full tension. It
has been working as well as a new rim for a few thousand miles.

Quoted message said:

I would opine that the most probable cause of your rim trouble was a
damaged rim, a defective rim and/or a poor mechanic.

If it hasn't got a kink, it can easily be straightened and made "as good
as new." I've done it often.

All true of course, at least with a "normal" wheel. The wheel in question
is probably a paired-spoke design with few spokes, a stout rim, and high
spoke tension. So straightening it as you describe may be more difficult
than with a 36h MA2.

Many riders have put tens of thousands of miles (OK ten thousand) on
Bontrager wheels with no trouble, but a run of bad ones is not unheard of.
Also, when buying used equipment you never really know what you're
getting, and there's no warranty service. If these were new, Trek
probably would have replaced them.

I don't know why anyone would pay $250 for a used set of these, when you
can get a nice new Ultegra/OpenPro set from someone like Peter Chisholm
for $325-ish -- or a machine built set to retension and stress-relieve
yourself for under $200.

The current fancy-wheel trend is laughable. I ride semi-fancy wheels
myself, but they came with a bike. If they give up the ghost I doubt I'll
replace them in kind. However by that time they may be all that's
available anymore. Maybe I should stock up on the old-fashioned stuff.

BTW, I've never seen a truly worn-out set of newfangled rims -- only
cracked ones.

Matt O.

hmm - seems some wheels just weren't meant to be ridden over mine fields by
500kg mountain gorillas.

"jim beam" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Lou D'Amelio said:

All nonsense. The history of this wheel suggests that spoke tension was
improper and it pulled through. Rims last tens of thousands of road
miles (less with sidewall wear if you ride in rain/crud often). If
you're not racing and don't need the absolute lightest disposable
wheels, get a good set of handbuilts. Last forever, easy to maintain.

Lou D'Amelio

handbuilts are only good if the person that builds them is good. and in
my experience, there's *very* few people out there who are prepared to
spend the time, or even /have the skill/ to build a good long-term
reliable wheel. otherwise, the o.p. is back in the same position they
were before - constantly having to get the wheel re-trued.

imo, there are two good reasons to buy pre-built "brand" wheels:

1. much better chance of it being right first time, and if not messed
with by the lbs, stay right.

2. [and this is not a big deal but something i appreciate commuting
across the golden gate bridge] lower spoke count is better in cross winds.

Matt O'Toole said:

jobst.brandt said:

Dan who? said:

I bought my current bike some years ago. I had endless trouble
keeping the rear rim straight. I fiddled with it about once a
month. I finally bought a new rim and installed it on the old hub
with the old spokes. It was the first wheel I ever laced and it
has was trouble free until I trashed it in a crash. It turned out
that the old rim had a slight kink (picture an "S" wave in the
plane of the rim). Apparently, it was too much for the spokes to
keep straight. I don't know how the rim became crooked but I
suspect it happened before I got it since I had trouble with it
from day one.

That's too bad, because your first rim could probably have served
you as well. Had you plucked spokes with your fingernail, the
disparity in tension caused by such a deformation, would have been
acoustically apparent and you could have straightened it so the
spokes had equal tension. You didn't say what brand and weight the
rim was, but I suspect it was reasonably usable.

Typically, several months ago I noticed the brakes had worn my front
MA-2 thin (<0.5mm) so I looked in my stack of rims that people had
discarded for various reasons, and found a near new MA-40 that was
warped in a smooth "S". I transferred my spokes from the worn out
MA-2 to this rim and straightened it before bringing it to full
tension. It has been working as well as a new rim for a few
thousand miles.

Quoted message said:

I would opine that the most probable cause of your rim trouble was a
damaged rim, a defective rim and/or a poor mechanic.

If it hasn't got a kink, it can easily be straightened and made "as
good as new." I've done it often.

All true of course, at least with a "normal" wheel. The wheel in
question is probably a paired-spoke design with few spokes, a stout
rim, and high spoke tension. So straightening it as you describe may
be more difficult than with a 36h MA2.

Many riders have put tens of thousands of miles (OK ten thousand) on
Bontrager wheels with no trouble, but a run of bad ones is not
unheard of. Also, when buying used equipment you never really know
what you're getting, and there's no warranty service. If these were
new, Trek probably would have replaced them.

I don't know why anyone would pay $250 for a used set of these, when
you can get a nice new Ultegra/OpenPro set from someone like Peter
Chisholm for $325-ish -- or a machine built set to retension and
stress-relieve yourself for under $200.

The current fancy-wheel trend is laughable. I ride semi-fancy wheels
myself, but they came with a bike. If they give up the ghost I doubt
I'll replace them in kind. However by that time they may be all
that's available anymore. Maybe I should stock up on the
old-fashioned stuff.

Those that truly ride (like us) will keep the traditional market afloat.
Especially when everyone gets old and realizes that traditional wheels are
the only way to go for trouble-free miles.

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

Phil said:

Those that truly ride (like us) will keep the traditional market afloat.
Especially when everyone gets old and realizes that traditional wheels are
the only way to go for trouble-free miles.

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

OK, let me first state that I've never used a "boutique" wheel. In
fact, I don't think I've ever put more than 10 miles on any wheel that
has fewer than 28 spokes. And I don't think I'd ever spend money on a
boutique wheelset cause they generally are not too user-serviceable.

But here is something I don't understand. What do the "pros" REALLY
use (aside from wheels used for time trials)? Something like TdF or
Paris-Roubaix probably dishes out more punishment than proably 90% of
us would ever dish out on a set of wheels in a lifetime.

I mean even for training, the pros ride much more than mere mortals. I
understand the pros have sponsorships, etc., but somehow I doubt they'd
put up with marginal rims in a competitive situation, or even for
training.

During TdF coverage they kept on saying the pros use carbon-fiber rims
which require cork (instead of rubber) as brake pads. Are these wheels
unobtainum for mere mortals?

damyth said:

I mean even for training, the pros ride much more than mere mortals. I
understand the pros have sponsorships, etc., but somehow I doubt they'd
put up with marginal rims in a competitive situation, or even for
training.

They ride whatever they are given... with a few exceptions. I would
also wager that their wheels get special hand tuning and evaluation.

What do you mean by "marginal"? They want the wheels to be as light and
aero as possible, so they *will* be at the margin. Longevity is not an
issue for them, so the normal fatigue failures that we experience after
so many thousand miles are also not an issue. Essentially the wheels
have to be strong enough to last for a few races (on average). Even
then, if a wheel has a problem they can be replaced as quickly as a
punctured tire. Actually, I think that is a good comparison... they
will want the wheels to last at least as long as the average tire will
go without a flat... otherwise performance will be compromised by
having to swap wheels too often during a race.

Do you or I have different requirements for the wheels we use? I know I
do...

Quoted message said:

During TdF coverage they kept on saying the pros use carbon-fiber rims
which require cork (instead of rubber) as brake pads. Are these wheels
unobtainum for mere mortals?

Anybody can buy them. The lightest wheels (full carbon tubulars) are
also pretty aero, so you can have the best of everything... if you have
lots of money.

K2 said:

Yesterday I noticed that the rear wheel (Bontrager Race Lite) on my 16
month old Trek 52k had a worsening wobble. Taking it into the LBS I
purchased it from for (another) consultation they found that the rim had
failed at a spoke eyelet... i.e., trashed.
Mechanic says that this isn't a to uncommon occurrence given the higher
spoke tension coupled with lighter alloys that go into such a wheel and
if I'm riding on it "a lot" then it increases such chances. Okay, so I
actually ride my bike... sue me!
Historically this wheel had problems early on. It had to be redished
within the first week and has been in at least twice for a truing to
which never seemed to get it completely straight claiming that this was
virtually impossible given the reduced number of spokes. I suspect that
this had failed even earlier but went undetected and was made worse with
their attempts at truing it but of course I can't prove this. This bike
has not been abused, as I use it for road riding mainly on normal
blacktop averaging maybe 90-150 miles per week, mostly to and from work.
Should this really be considered a "Not too uncommon" event? Should such
a wheel not be used for daily use as it's too brittle for such an
application? It doesn't appear to be marketed this way.
And, now that I'm apparently in the market for a new set of wheels (they
can build up the same rear wheel for me for ~$110 which I'm thinking of
avoiding) any recommendations?

thanks for listenting!

Many bicycles come today that are all about looks and very short on
performance, particularly the wheels. paired, too few spokes, lots of
stuff of fashion and marketing, nothing else.
If the people can rebuild the wheel as it came(fool me once) then have
them design a wheel for you and your riding. use a shimano or
Campagnolo hub, a good rim from many makers, and enough spokes. BUILT
WELL!!
If they give you that thousand yard stare when you ask about this, call
me and I can design a wheel for you.