Rim swap

BCDrums said:

I put a flat spot in a wheel built with a Mavic MA40 rim, ERD=613. I
find that the Sun CR18 has an ERD of 612. Is there any reason that I
can't do a rim swap, just moving the old spokes over to the new rim?
Will that silly little millimeter make any difference?

Thanks!
BC

No problem, as long as spokes are not bottoming out on thier threads now.
Is there thread left at the bottom (Slotted End) of the nipple now. You will only need a few turns more.... less than 1/2 mm.

BCDrums said:

I put a flat spot in a wheel built with a Mavic MA40 rim, ERD=613. I
find that the Sun CR18 has an ERD of 612. Is there any reason that I
can't do a rim swap, just moving the old spokes over to the new rim?
Will that silly little millimeter make any difference?

Swap away.

landotter said:

BCDrums said:

I put a flat spot in a wheel built with a Mavic MA40 rim, ERD=613. I
find that the Sun CR18 has an ERD of 612. Is there any reason that I
can't do a rim swap, just moving the old spokes over to the new rim?
Will that silly little millimeter make any difference?

Swap away.

Are we sure they're the same "Handedness?" in other words, is the
spoke hole behind the valve stem offset in the same direction between
the two models? IIRC, I had a set of Sun M13Ls that were the opposite
of the Mavic Monthelerys they were replacing (I wasn't trying to reuse
spokes there, I was just examining the spoking pattern).

Hank Wirtz said:

landotter said:

On Jun 27, 12:38 pm, BCDrums <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I put a flat spot in a wheel built with a Mavic MA40 rim, ERD=613. I
find that the Sun CR18 has an ERD of 612. Is there any reason that I
can't do a rim swap, just moving the old spokes over to the new rim?
Will that silly little millimeter make any difference?

Quoted message said:

Swap away.

Are we sure they're the same "Handedness?" in other words, is the
spoke hole behind the valve stem offset in the same direction between
the two models? IIRC, I had a set of Sun M13Ls that were the opposite
of the Mavic Monthelerys they were replacing (I wasn't trying to reuse
spokes there, I was just examining the spoking pattern).

I've dealt with the offset and actually laced up some part way during
a swap in the wrong holes, easy enough to turn the rim till the
offsets match, tape the two back together with electrical tape and
swap away.

Hank Wirtz said:

landotter said:

BCDrums said:

I put a flat spot in a wheel built with a Mavic MA40 rim, ERD=613. I
find that the Sun CR18 has an ERD of 612. Is there any reason that I
can't do a rim swap, just moving the old spokes over to the new rim?
Will that silly little millimeter make any difference?

Swap away.

Are we sure they're the same "Handedness?" in other words, is the
spoke hole behind the valve stem offset in the same direction between
the two models? IIRC, I had a set of Sun M13Ls that were the opposite
of the Mavic Monthelerys they were replacing (I wasn't trying to reuse
spokes there, I was just examining the spoking pattern).

Could I not just turn the new rim over?

BC

BCDrums said:

Hank Wirtz said:

landotter said:

On Jun 27, 12:38 pm, BCDrums <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> I put a flat spot in a wheel built with a Mavic MA40 rim, ERD=613. I
> find that the Sun CR18 has an ERD of 612. Is there any reason that I
> can't do a rim swap, just moving the old spokes over to the new rim?
> Will that silly little millimeter make any difference?
Swap away.

Quoted message said:

Are we sure they're the same "Handedness?" in other words, is the
spoke hole behind the valve stem offset in the same direction between
the two models? IIRC, I had a set of Sun M13Ls that were the opposite
of the Mavic Monthelerys they were replacing (I wasn't trying to reuse
spokes there, I was just examining the spoking pattern).

Could I not just turn the new rim over?

As long at the spoke holes point at the correct flanges you're good.
If you turned it over, you might mess up some of that rim label to hub
logo to QR relationship zen. :-P

Bill C Drums said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> I put a flat spot in a wheel built with a Mavic MA40 rim,
> ERD=613. I find that the Sun CR18 has an ERD of 612. Is there
> any reason that I can't do a rim swap, just moving the old spokes
> over to the new rim? Will that silly little millimeter make any
> difference?

If the spokes are flush with the top of the spoke nipples on the old
rim then they will protrude 0.5mm on the new one. If that is where
these spokes are now, it presents no problem. If the spokes are
presently not flush with the end of the spoke nipples, it's evan
better.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Swap away.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Are we sure they're the same "Handedness?" in other words, is the
spoke hole behind the valve stem offset in the same direction
between the two models? IIRC, I had a set of Sun M13Ls that were
the opposite of the Mavic Monthelerys they were replacing (I wasn't
trying to reuse spokes there, I was just examining the spoking
pattern).

Quoted message said:

Could I not just turn the new rim over?

It's like turning a right hand threaded shaft around. It is still a
right hand thread regardless of which end is front.

Jobst Brandt

landotter said:

BCDrums said:

Hank Wirtz said:

On Jun 27, 11:19 am, landotter <[email hidden]> wrote:
> On Jun 27, 12:38 pm, BCDrums <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> I put a flat spot in a wheel built with a Mavic MA40 rim, ERD=613. I
>> find that the Sun CR18 has an ERD of 612. Is there any reason that I
>> can't do a rim swap, just moving the old spokes over to the new rim?
>> Will that silly little millimeter make any difference?
> Swap away.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Are we sure they're the same "Handedness?" in other words, is the
spoke hole behind the valve stem offset in the same direction between
the two models? IIRC, I had a set of Sun M13Ls that were the opposite
of the Mavic Monthelerys they were replacing (I wasn't trying to reuse
spokes there, I was just examining the spoking pattern).

Quoted message said:

Could I not just turn the new rim over?

As long at the spoke holes point at the correct flanges you're good.
If you turned it over, you might mess up some of that rim label to hub
logo to QR relationship zen. :-P-

You'll be forgiven that sin if you shellac your cloth bar tape. ;-)

landotter said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Are we sure they're the same "Handedness?" in other words, is the
spoke hole behind the valve stem offset in the same direction between
the two models? IIRC, I had a set of Sun M13Ls that were the opposite
of the Mavic Monthelerys they were replacing (I wasn't trying to reuse
spokes there, I was just examining the spoking pattern).

Could I not just turn the new rim over?

As long at the spoke holes point at the correct flanges you're good.
If you turned it over, you might mess up some of that rim label to hub
logo to QR relationship zen. :-P

Normally, I DO go for that Tire label/stem/QR stuff, but this is a
beater bike that gets little use, and I am looking to fix it on the
cheap. So compromises may be made...

Ozark Bicycle said:

landotter said:

On Jun 27, 7:22 pm, BCDrums <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Hank Wirtz wrote:
> On Jun 27, 11:19 am, landotter <[email hidden]> wrote:
>> On Jun 27, 12:38 pm, BCDrums <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>>> I put a flat spot in a wheel built with a Mavic MA40 rim, ERD=613. I
>>> find that the Sun CR18 has an ERD of 612. Is there any reason that I
>>> can't do a rim swap, just moving the old spokes over to the new rim?
>>> Will that silly little millimeter make any difference?
>> Swap away.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Are we sure they're the same "Handedness?" in other words, is the
> spoke hole behind the valve stem offset in the same direction between
> the two models? IIRC, I had a set of Sun M13Ls that were the opposite
> of the Mavic Monthelerys they were replacing (I wasn't trying to reuse
> spokes there, I was just examining the spoking pattern).

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Could I not just turn the new rim over?

Quoted message said:

As long at the spoke holes point at the correct flanges you're good.
If you turned it over, you might mess up some of that rim label to hub
logo to QR relationship zen. :-P-

You'll be forgiven that sin if you shellac your cloth bar tape. ;-)

That would be so beetle-esque!

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

BCDrums <[email hidden]> wrote:
> I put a flat spot in a wheel built with a Mavic MA40 rim, ERD=613. I
> find that the Sun CR18 has an ERD of 612. Is there any reason that I
> can't do a rim swap, just moving the old spokes over to the new rim?
> Will that silly little millimeter make any difference?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

landotter said:

Swap away.

Quoted message said:

Hank Wirtz said:

Are we sure they're the same "Handedness?" in other words, is the
spoke hole behind the valve stem offset in the same direction between
the two models? IIRC, I had a set of Sun M13Ls that were the opposite
of the Mavic Monthelerys they were replacing (I wasn't trying to reuse
spokes there, I was just examining the spoking pattern).

BCDrums said:

Could I not just turn the new rim over?

Turning a rim over doesn't change chirality.

If they differ, you'd have to accept a result with which a wheelbuilder
wouldn't be comfortable - valve misplaced. Functionally OK but
aesthetically unacceptable.

Either that or rebuild with new spokes. Rebuilding with used spokes
repositioned isn't a good choice.

If you plan a 'rim swap', first do as Hank suggests - check that they
are both pierced in the same pattern.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

A Muzi said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> BCDrums <[email hidden]> wrote:
>> I put a flat spot in a wheel built with a Mavic MA40 rim, ERD=613. I
>> find that the Sun CR18 has an ERD of 612. Is there any reason that I
>> can't do a rim swap, just moving the old spokes over to the new rim?
>> Will that silly little millimeter make any difference?
landotter <[email hidden]> wrote:
> Swap away.

Hank Wirtz said:

Are we sure they're the same "Handedness?" in other words, is the
spoke hole behind the valve stem offset in the same direction between
the two models? IIRC, I had a set of Sun M13Ls that were the opposite
of the Mavic Monthelerys they were replacing (I wasn't trying to reuse
spokes there, I was just examining the spoking pattern).

BCDrums said:

Could I not just turn the new rim over?

Turning a rim over doesn't change chirality.

If they differ, you'd have to accept a result with which a wheelbuilder
wouldn't be comfortable - valve misplaced. Functionally OK but
aesthetically unacceptable.

Andrew,

In this case the OP hints that it this isn't some sort of artful
restoration--so cringe and sit on your hands. ;-P

Quoted message said:

Either that or rebuild with new spokes. Rebuilding with used spokes
repositioned isn't a good choice.

I'm a really inexperienced wheelbuilder with only three under my belt,
but with far more rim swaps in my holster, and I fail to understand
how rotating the rim a bit to get the spoke holes to point right would
somehow create a spoke crisis. The valve hole would be a few cm's off
target, which is no big structural crime--what am I missing?

-Max

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>>> I put a flat spot in a wheel built with a Mavic MA40 rim, ERD=613. I
>>> find that the Sun CR18 has an ERD of 612. Is there any reason that I
>>> can't do a rim swap, just moving the old spokes over to the new rim?
>>> Will that silly little millimeter make any difference?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> landotter <[email hidden]> wrote:
>> Swap away.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Hank Wirtz wrote:
> Are we sure they're the same "Handedness?" in other words, is the
> spoke hole behind the valve stem offset in the same direction between
> the two models? IIRC, I had a set of Sun M13Ls that were the opposite
> of the Mavic Monthelerys they were replacing (I wasn't trying to reuse
> spokes there, I was just examining the spoking pattern).

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

BCDrums said:

Could I not just turn the new rim over?

Turning a rim over doesn't change chirality.

Quoted message said:

A Muzi said:

If they differ, you'd have to accept a result with which a wheelbuilder
wouldn't be comfortable - valve misplaced. Functionally OK but
aesthetically unacceptable.
Either that or rebuild with new spokes. Rebuilding with used spokes
repositioned isn't a good choice.

landotter said:

In this case the OP hints that it this isn't some sort of artful
restoration--so cringe and sit on your hands. ;-P
I'm a really inexperienced wheelbuilder with only three under my belt,
but with far more rim swaps in my holster, and I fail to understand
how rotating the rim a bit to get the spoke holes to point right would
somehow create a spoke crisis. The valve hole would be a few cm's off
target, which is no big structural crime--what am I missing?

You're right.

With the 'other' type rim, just move the rim so the valve is in the
'wrong' position and it will be functionally just fine.

(solutions to 'valve in wrong position' involve dysfunctional tradeoffs)
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

As a related aside, there is a useful spoke caluculator at http://bikeschool.com/
Look for "spoke calc" in the menu.

This one has a different option. You may enter the spokes you have in
stock, the hub you have, and it will give you the ERD of the rim to
use.

Calvin Jones said:

As a related aside, there is a useful spoke caluculator at http://bikeschool.com/
Look for "spoke calc" in the menu.

This one has a different option. You may enter the spokes you have in
stock, the hub you have, and it will give you the ERD of the rim to
use.

I am glad to know this, but my spokes are in-wheel, rather than
in-stock! 😉f

BCDrums said:

I put a flat spot in a wheel built with a Mavic MA40 rim, ERD=613. I
find that the Sun CR18 has an ERD of 612. Is there any reason that I
can't do a rim swap, just moving the old spokes over to the new rim?
Will that silly little millimeter make any difference?

Thanks!
BC

Nope....as long as the spokes are the correct length to start with.
Remember spokes are normally only + = 1mm anywho.

A Muzi said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> BCDrums <[email hidden]> wrote:
>> I put a flat spot in a wheel built with a Mavic MA40 rim, ERD=613. I
>> find that the Sun CR18 has an ERD of 612. Is there any reason that I
>> can't do a rim swap, just moving the old spokes over to the new rim?
>> Will that silly little millimeter make any difference?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

landotter <[email hidden]> wrote:
> Swap away.

Quoted message said:

Hank Wirtz said:

Are we sure they're the same "Handedness?" in other words, is the
spoke hole behind the valve stem offset in the same direction between
the two models? IIRC, I had a set of Sun M13Ls that were the opposite
of the Mavic Monthelerys they were replacing (I wasn't trying to reuse
spokes there, I was just examining the spoking pattern).

BCDrums said:

Could I not just turn the new rim over?

Turning a rim over doesn't change chirality.

Chirality?!? I had to look it up. A great word. (Thunderbird's spell
checker suggest I replace it with "immorality"😉

Quoted message said:

If they differ, you'd have to accept a result with which a wheelbuilder
wouldn't be comfortable - valve misplaced. Functionally OK but
aesthetically unacceptable.

Either that or rebuild with new spokes. Rebuilding with used spokes
repositioned isn't a good choice.

Well, I don't have the rim in hand. As I am looking to do this on the
very cheap, I ordered a discontinued $10 Sun CR18 rim from Nashbar, and
it's not yet here. I will be chagrined if I am forced to put the valve
in the wrong place, but this bike gets very little use, and I can
cha-grin and bear it. Plus, for the first time, people will look at my
bike and say, "Hmmm...do you build your own wheels?"

BC

BCDrums said:

A Muzi said:

Quoted message said:

>> BCDrums <[email hidden]> wrote:
>>> I put a flat spot in a wheel built with a Mavic MA40 rim, ERD=613. I
>>> find that the Sun CR18 has an ERD of 612. Is there any reason that I
>>> can't do a rim swap, just moving the old spokes over to the new rim?
>>> Will that silly little millimeter make any difference?

Quoted message said:

> landotter <[email hidden]> wrote:
>> Swap away.

Quoted message said:

Hank Wirtz wrote:
> Are we sure they're the same "Handedness?" in other words, is the
> spoke hole behind the valve stem offset in the same direction between
> the two models? IIRC, I had a set of Sun M13Ls that were the opposite
> of the Mavic Monthelerys they were replacing (I wasn't trying to reuse
> spokes there, I was just examining the spoking pattern).

BCDrums said:

Could I not just turn the new rim over?

Turning a rim over doesn't change chirality.

Chirality?!? I had to look it up. A great word. (Thunderbird's spell
checker suggest I replace it with "immorality"😉

Quoted message said:

If they differ, you'd have to accept a result with which a wheelbuilder
wouldn't be comfortable - valve misplaced. Functionally OK but
aesthetically unacceptable.

Either that or rebuild with new spokes. Rebuilding with used spokes
repositioned isn't a good choice.

Well, I don't have the rim in hand. As I am looking to do this on the
very cheap, I ordered a discontinued $10 Sun CR18 rim from Nashbar, and
it's not yet here. I will be chagrined if I am forced to put the valve
in the wrong place, but this bike gets very little use, and I can
cha-grin and bear it. Plus, for the first time, people will look at my
bike and say, "Hmmm...do you build your own wheels?"

BC

On my CR-18s, the spoke immediately above the valve hole is to the right;
the spoke immediately below the valve hole, to the left.

Gary Young said:

On my CR-18s, the spoke immediately above the valve hole is to the
right; the spoke immediately below the valve hole, to the left.

Left and right handedness of rims can be viewed by visualizing a tape
around the spoke pair adjacent to the stem hole and noting whether it
advances as a left or right handed thread viewed from either side of
the wheel.

Jobst Brandt