Road rager v. cyclist on camera

Strayhorn said:

A sad tale:

http://spacing.ca/wire/?p=491

Summary: Driver throws litter out window. Cyclist throws it back in.
Fight ensues which is caught on camera.

--
Strayhorn

³Excuse me, brother, who you jivin' with that cosmik debris?" - F.Z.

On 3 different occasions I have thrown litter back into someone's car.
Only once was I on my bike, the other times I was a pedestrian. I am
6'3" 220 pounds so most confrontations are just a matter of yelling and
puffy posturing. The guy who got a half filled McDonalds milkshake
tossed through his window was not a happy camper.

Joseph

In article <[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

Strayhorn said:

A sad tale:

http://spacing.ca/wire/?p=491

Summary: Driver throws litter out window. Cyclist throws it back in.
Fight ensues which is caught on camera.

--
Strayhorn

³Excuse me, brother, who you jivin' with that cosmik debris?" - F.Z.

On 3 different occasions I have thrown litter back into someone's car.
Only once was I on my bike, the other times I was a pedestrian. I am
6'3" 220 pounds so most confrontations are just a matter of yelling and
puffy posturing. The guy who got a half filled McDonalds milkshake
tossed through his window was not a happy camper.

This echoes an episode between a litterer and myself - though in this
case the milkshake was from Burger King. A pair of youths DWE (driving
while eating), were disposing of their meal's packaging as they
polished off their fare. Hamburger wraps, French fry containers,
cutlery, I saw it all go out window by turns as we leap frogged each
other through congested city traffic.

After retrieving the half-full milkshake the fellow in the passenger
seat had ejected, I caught the offenders as they waited at a stoplight,
and tossed it into the lap of its rightful owner. His lap turned a
sloppy shade of chocolate as he turned the air blue with his
imprecations. Coward that I am, I avoided a confrontation by a quick
U-turn and a retreat down an alley.

Luke

Luke

"Luke" wrote: (clip) Coward that I am, I avoided a confrontation by a quick
U-turn and a retreat down an alley.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I wouldn't call you a coward. You are someone who knows when and how to end
a conversation. If we always had to endure the endless rantings of those
whom we "correct," it would have a chilling effect on our do-gooderness.

Yeah, moving on is the way to handle it. Many years ago, I had an RTD
driver nearly kill me as he blatently ran a light in Downtown Denver. I
turned right to follow him to his next stop. I parked my bike on the
curb, got on the bus, pulled the keys out, exited, and threw the keys
into some nearby shrubs. Then I got on my bike and went the other way
down the sidewalk.

-Mike

Leo Lichtman said:

"Luke" wrote: (clip) Coward that I am, I avoided a confrontation by a quick
U-turn and a retreat down an alley.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I wouldn't call you a coward. You are someone who knows when and how to end
a conversation. If we always had to endure the endless rantings of those
whom we "correct," it would have a chilling effect on our do-gooderness.

Quoted message said:

Strayhorn said:

A sad tale:

http://spacing.ca/wire/?p=491

Summary: Driver throws litter out window. Cyclist throws it back in.
Fight ensues which is caught on camera.

--
Strayhorn

³Excuse me, brother, who you jivin' with that cosmik debris?" - F.Z.

On 3 different occasions I have thrown litter back into someone's car.
Only once was I on my bike, the other times I was a pedestrian. I am
6'3" 220 pounds so most confrontations are just a matter of yelling and
puffy posturing. The guy who got a half filled McDonalds milkshake
tossed through his window was not a happy camper.

Joseph

Seems like everyone's first response is to escalate the situation.

I've found that you can make a much greater impact AND not run the risk
of getting a beat-down if you just hand the trash back to the litterer
and say, "excuse me, I think you dropped this".

Quoted message said:

"Luke" wrote: (clip) Coward that I am, I avoided a confrontation by a quick
U-turn and a retreat down an alley.

Quoted message said:

Leo wrote:
I wouldn't call you a coward. You are someone who knows when and how
to end a conversation. If we always had to endure the endless
rantings of those whom we "correct," it would have a chilling effect
on our do-gooderness.

I can easily see this type of confrontation resulting in a cyclist who
quickly reached the ambient temperature because he was no longer living.

Scott said:

Quoted message said:

Strayhorn said:

A sad tale:

http://spacing.ca/wire/?p=491

Summary: Driver throws litter out window. Cyclist throws it back in.
Fight ensues which is caught on camera.

--
Strayhorn

³Excuse me, brother, who you jivin' with that cosmik debris?" - F.Z.

On 3 different occasions I have thrown litter back into someone's car.
Only once was I on my bike, the other times I was a pedestrian. I am
6'3" 220 pounds so most confrontations are just a matter of yelling and
puffy posturing. The guy who got a half filled McDonalds milkshake
tossed through his window was not a happy camper.

Joseph

Seems like everyone's first response is to escalate the situation.

I've found that you can make a much greater impact AND not run the risk
of getting a beat-down if you just hand the trash back to the litterer
and say, "excuse me, I think you dropped this".

I have done the polite version more times than I can remember! The
times I threw the garbage back was when it was someone I could tell
would have slapped the garbage out of my hand into my face or otherwise
tried to get tough if I didn't take an aggressive line. And after I
did, I just walked away, maybe letting out a "waddayagonnadoabadit?"

I don't like it when people litter, and just because someone looks
tough doesn't mean they get a pass from me on hearing about it.

Joseph

This story has made the newspapers:

"Many wade into bike-car brawl online"

-----------------------------------------------------
More than 100,000 hits on website documenting fight `Psycho motorists
strike again,' one angry posting proclaims
Jan. 31, 2006. 06:08 AM

BETSY POWELL
CRIME REPORTER

A series of dramatic photographs capturing a quintessential urban
confrontation — a daytime brawl between a bike courier and a motorist
in downtown Toronto — has sparked a raging debate in cyberspace.

The vigorous, sometimes vitriolic venting weighs in on a host of
topics from pedestrian versus motorist rights and conjecture about the
nationalities and sexual preferences of the combatants, to littering
and whether the photographer should have put down his camera and
stepped in to stop the violence.

The incident apparently began after a man tossed food onto the street
in Kensington Market and escalated when the cyclist threw the food
back into his car.

"Psycho motorists strike again!" said one posting on the website
Citynoise.org, where photographer Adam Krawesky posted the images last
Thursday.

Visitor traffic has since gone through the roof with more than 100,000
hits being logged by yesterday afternoon. The images are also
circulating widely on the Internet and appear on dozens of websites as
far away as The Netherlands, some in foreign languages, with links
provided to Citynoise.

But many postings also sided with the unidentified man.

"The [censored] chucked food in his car. Yeah, he's a moron for littering,
but she made it personal ... it's nice she's so passionate about the
environment that she seeks personal confrontation by shoving food back
into people's laps, but honestly, what did she expect?" reads one.

Krawesky said while the incident highlights the "gulf between cyclists
and motorists, typically male motorists," the subsequent online
discussion mirrors another aspect of human interaction.

"It's interesting how the Internet reflects in one way when you're in
a car — in the same way the anonymity of the Internet and posting all
sorts of threatening, awful things that you would never do if you were
actually face to face," says the 28-year-old who works as an editor at
Citynoise.org.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Read it at
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1138661412479&call_pageid=968332188492&col=968793972154&t=TS_Home
or http://tinyurl.com/d3y46

J. Spaceman

Seems like everyone's first response is to escalate the situation.

Escalation seems to be the norm in urban jungles. I once was in a road rage
duel while I was driving my car with another car. Speeds approached 80 mph,
honking and flashing lights, through city streets, before I finally called
it off when the other car made a high speed turn and almost lost it. But
the point was made.

Mike Reed said:

Yeah, moving on is the way to handle it. Many years ago, I had an RTD
driver nearly kill me as he blatently ran a light in Downtown Denver. I
turned right to follow him to his next stop. I parked my bike on the
curb, got on the bus, pulled the keys out, exited, and threw the keys
into some nearby shrubs. Then I got on my bike and went the other way
down the sidewalk.

I must say, I like it.

But, I think that's some sort of federal
offense now, stepping onto a bus to
confront the driver. I once served a
half eaten burrito through the driver's
window of an RTD. He deserved it,
believe me.

BTW, the proper way to address
issues with RTD drivers is to get the
number of the bus, take note of the
exact time and location of the incident
and report it to RTD. They have been
very responsive to cyclist complaints.

Also, people should note that the
messenger in question in this photo
series is a woman. Both escalated
the confrontation but then the dude
gets out and apparently starts inflicting
physical violence on this female, and
on her bicycle, at which point passers-
by come to her aid.

Don't hit girls.

Robert

Callistus Valerius said:

Seems like everyone's first response is to escalate the situation.

Escalation seems to be the norm in urban jungles. I once was in a road
rage duel while I was driving my car with another car. Speeds approached
80 mph, honking and flashing lights, through city streets, before I
finally called it off when the other car made a high speed turn and almost
lost it. But the point was made.

What point?

I don't think "urban" has much to do with it either. In my
experience, city dwellers know better how to get along with each other,
because it's a requirement of everyday life. Of course with more people
around the chances of running into a miscreant may be higher.

Some of us manage to go through our whole lives without conflict, while
others have a story of some scuffle they've been in nearly every week.
Gee, I wonder what the difference is.

You're right, the problem is some of us choose to act out like big
babies rather than keep our cool and move on.

Matt O.

I'm inferring a lot from a bunch of photos, but I'd guess one or both
of the following might have been at work in this guy's head:

First, for some men--maybe a lot of men--there's a lot of aggression
against women that's kept in check by society's notion that men should
protect women. But when women behave "out of bounds", as he might have
perceived the courier as doing, the checks fall away, and the rage
comes out. He was really out of control.

Also, many people, myself included, get angry when someone acts toward
them with a sense of smug moral superiority, even when the point
they're making is a good one. I was once walking my dog in Santa
Monica--PC capital of the western world--when a young woman came up to
me and smugly insisted that I pick up my dog's droppings, so as not to
mess up "her" city. I got really angry at her posturing, and rather
than show her the plastic bag I had in my pocket for just that purpose,
I told her what I thought of her, and people like her. I remember
using the word "[censored]" among others. She was taken aback; perhaps
like the courier, because she was in the right, she felt she could do
just about anything to express her rightness.

Not in my book. Tossing food through somebody's window is an uncool
thing to do, whether the litterer goes over the edge or not.

bernmart said:

Tossing food through somebody's window is an uncool
thing to do, whether the litterer goes over the edge or not.

I think whether it's "uncool" depends almost entirely on the direction
of the toss. Tossing it out? Uncool, or worse. Tossing it back in?
I think it's an elegant reaction, exactly what's deserved.

I understand the risk. But I dislike the fact that many people feel no
yahoo should ever get negative consequences for boorish behavior. Let
the boors wipe the coffee and McSauce off their leather upholstery.
It's appropriate.

Requisite disclaimer: I've done the return toss myself, once.

- Frank Krygowski

frkrygow said:

bernmart said:

Tossing food through somebody's window is an uncool
thing to do, whether the litterer goes over the edge or not.

I think whether it's "uncool" depends almost entirely on the direction of
the toss. Tossing it out? Uncool, or worse. Tossing it back in? I think
it's an elegant reaction, exactly what's deserved.

I understand the risk. But I dislike the fact that many people feel no
yahoo should ever get negative consequences for boorish behavior. Let the
boors wipe the coffee and McSauce off their leather upholstery. It's
appropriate.

Requisite disclaimer: I've done the return toss myself, once.

I saw a fistfight erupt over a tossed cigarette, between two people who
should definitely know better. The [censored], someone I actually know, is a
high end corporate health insurance rep. The [censored]-back, owner of a
multi-million dollar home, who happened to be out getting his morning
paper when the cigarette was tossed. What's with these people?

Matt O.

Matt O'Toole said:

You're right, the problem is some of us choose to act out like big
babies rather than keep our cool and move on.

Some of us thinks it's lame to keep cool all the time -- it's
admirable to not put up with gross littering and stuff like that.
I've done the same with paper trash that litterers through out of cars
and tried to get a motorist to pick up some food wrappers a few weeks
ago. It would be good if there a larger societal consensus on what
sorts of things are unacceptable -- like gross littering -- so that
people wouldn't do it.

JT

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On 31 Jan 2006 10:01:52 -0800, "bernmart" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

I was once walking my dog in Santa
Monica--PC capital of the western world--when a young woman came up to
me and smugly insisted that I pick up my dog's droppings, so as not to
mess up "her" city. I got really angry at her posturing, and rather
than show her the plastic bag I had in my pocket for just that purpose,
I told her what I thought of her, and people like her. I remember
using the word "[censored]" among others. She was taken aback; perhaps
like the courier, because she was in the right,

She wasn't in the right -- she would have been if she'd seen you walk
away, but she jumped the gun.

JT

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Quoted message said:

bernmart said:

Tossing food through somebody's window is an uncool
thing to do, whether the litterer goes over the edge or not.

I think whether it's "uncool" depends almost entirely on the direction
of the toss. Tossing it out? Uncool, or worse. Tossing it back in?
I think it's an elegant reaction, exactly what's deserved.

Wow, I agree with Frank....

Quoted message said:

I understand the risk.

Yeah, I only do stuff like that when there are a lot of people around
who might help if things get out of hand. And even then, if the
offender has a gun it would be little solace to me. But the risk is,
occassionally worth it.

Quoted message said:

Requisite disclaimer: I've done the return toss myself, once.

Yes!

JT

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Quoted message said:

Callistus Valerius said:

Seems like everyone's first response is to escalate the situation.

Escalation seems to be the norm in urban jungles. I once was in a road
rage duel while I was driving my car with another car. Speeds

approached

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

80 mph, honking and flashing lights, through city streets, before I
finally called it off when the other car made a high speed turn and

almost

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

lost it. But the point was made.

What point?

------------
That he fu*ked with the wrong dude.
------------

Quoted message said:

I don't think "urban" has much to do with it either. In my
experience, city dwellers know better how to get along with each other,
because it's a requirement of everyday life. Of course with more people
around the chances of running into a miscreant may be higher.

Some of us manage to go through our whole lives without conflict, while
others have a story of some scuffle they've been in nearly every week.
Gee, I wonder what the difference is.

-------------
I haven't been in a road rage duel since, although one guy did provoke
me since the one I described, but he looked like some old bald headed drunk,
driving an antique car, and I didn't want to give him the excitement he was
obviously craving for. That's what I figured out with some age, some people
need this type of anti-social interaction, to feel alive. So why give it to
them.
--------------

Quoted message said:

You're right, the problem is some of us choose to act out like big
babies rather than keep our cool and move on.

Matt O.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I was once walking my dog in Santa
Monica--PC capital of the western world--when a young woman came up to
me and smugly insisted that I pick up my dog's droppings, so as not to
mess up "her" city. I got really angry at her posturing, and rather
than show her the plastic bag I had in my pocket for just that purpose,
I told her what I thought of her, and people like her. I remember
using the word "[censored]" among others. She was taken aback; perhaps
like the courier, because she was in the right,

She wasn't in the right -- she would have been if she'd seen you walk
away, but she jumped the gun.

JT

I don't agree with the courier, or the [censored] policman you ran into. If
they care about it so much, why don't they dispose of it themselves, as many
do. I think that would make a bigger impact on the offenders. This whole
discussion seems out of place here, when you see on some of the most popular
bike roads, littered with empty and full gu gel remains. I admit, I toss
them too.