rowing newbie

[email hidden] (Bob) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Hi everyone Im new to running and started using a rowing mach to finish my workouts at the gym.I
seem to love rowing but I keep hurting my back,

This should tell you something. Listen.

Im using the kind of rower with a pulley and a small handle noone

Quoted message said:

seems to know correct form on this mach as it is used by few,any help would be
apreciated.Thanks Bob

STOP using it.

Bob said:

Hi everyone Im new to running and started using a rowing mach to finish my workouts at the gym.I
seem to love rowing but I keep hurting my back,Im using the kind of rower with a pulley and a
small handle noone seems to know correct form on this mach as it is used by few,any help would be
apreciated.Thanks Bob

S2

Dear Bob, Weird that you are writing to rec.running for rowing technique advice, but what the heck.
I am also a rower. Running and rowing on an ergometer (or in a real racing shell) is an excellent
combo for fitness and cross-training. However, you've gotta have good technique for rowing on an
erg. Go to the Concept II rowing site

concept2.comDefault.aspOpen ↗

and click on the "technique" link on the left. You'll see a live action demonstration of good
technique. I could use a lot of words to describe proper form, but it would be difficult and not
sure it would get it across anyway. What you really need is a local expert who knows what he/she is
doing to show you. Anyone who has rowed crew on water knows how to do it properly and prevent
injury. In a gym setting, accurate knowledge may be hit-or-miss. The only thing I'll add is a strong
recommendation to set the resistance on the flywheel to virtually the lightest setting. Higher
resistance does not equal better workout, just killer back pain and demoralization. Even as an
experienced rower I never do much past 4-5 (out of max 10 resistance) on the Concept II rowing
ergometer. What you get from rowing you get from repitition and endurance, not backbreaking
powerstrokes.

Good luck.

-- Josh

Josh Steinberg <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Bob said:

Hi everyone Im new to running and started using a rowing mach to finish my workouts at the gym.

Quoted message said:

Dear Bob, Weird that you are writing to rec.running for rowing technique advice, but what
the heck.

It's called trolling.

[email hidden] (Bob) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

It wasnt trolling as I figured runners would know about rowers in the winter I learned here what I
was doing wrong,thanks.Bob

S

Bob As in one of the other answers, runners and rowers both frequent this forum ! I also use the
Concept 2 machine, been competing on it for 3 years now, whilst still running at a good level.
Technique is everything and like most people I started on a damper of 10, and now use 4-5, is it the
Concept 2 you use ? It is the best all round piece of equipment around. I find after injury, I can
bounce back to running very quick after using the Concept 2. Loads of info on the Concept2.com forum
at e-row.comranking forum frames.htmOpen ↗ and also concept2.co.ukcgiOpen ↗
bin/ikonboard/ikonboard.cgi Good luck, you may be like me and find it takes over from running after
22 years !! Cheers Steve

[email hidden] (Hallcross) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Being a rowing nudie is nothing new.

Hi Bob, I am a runner who owns a rower and I can tell you do not over bend at the knees- too
much flex and your seat gets too close to your heels (not good!) You need to keep the shins
almost perpendicular at the *catch*.. the part of the stroke where your hands are nearest the
flywheel. Teresa

In article <[email hidden]>,

Thotful560 said:

Hi Bob, I am a runner who owns a rower and I can tell you do not over bend at the knees- too much
flex and your seat gets too close to your heels (not good!) You need to keep the shins almost
perpendicular at the *catch*.. the part of the stroke where your hands are nearest the flywheel.

Different Bob now, but I've visited rowing machines too.

Thanks for the notes about form and loading on the system (you and Josh).

A different couple of questions: I've tended to be pulling high loads (7-10), and will be backing
off that. While at those settings, I've typically been around a cadence of 30 or a bit less, and a
machine claimed pace of 2:15 per 500m or so.

What sort of cadence is typically desirable? Can you give some perspectives on what paces
translate to in rowing? (as in, the
2:15 is sprinting, mid-pack racing (which would mean I should back off the pace), a quick 'jog', mind-
numbingly slow, ...

--
Robert Grumbine radix.net~bobgOpen ↗ Science faqs and amateur activities notes and links.
Sagredo (Galileo Galilei) "You present these recondite matters with too much evidence and ease; this
great facility makes them less appreciated than they would be had they been presented in a more
abstruse manner." Two New Sciences

Robert Grumbine said:

A different couple of questions: I've tended to be pulling high loads (7-10), and will be backing
off that.

Hope that has helped. A setting of 7-10 is REAL steep and a setup for back trouble. It may seem
counterintuitive, but rowing is not a strength sport, it is an endurance and finesse sport (ok,
really a combo of finesse, endurance, and some strength). The real challenge in rowing is the
application of one's power with perfect form, perfect balance, and in perfect syncrony with the
other 7 rowers in the boat, because if your boat is tipped over to one side from lousy balance, or
if your strokes are out of cadence with your teammates, then you and your boat don't go very fast,
you all work unnecessarily hard, and you might even take on a lot of water! Which is ok for the
triathletes here reading who like swimming back to shore, but not for the rowers who prefer to stay
above the water and in the boat! Those high settings of 7 and 10 do maximally challenge your muscles
(and maybe overchallenge your back muscles), but they do not balance strength with the other
performance needs of rowing that real rowers seek. That's why us rowers recommend and train at lower
settings. But I digress...

Quoted message said:

While at those settings, I've typically been around a cadence of 30 or a bit less, and a machine
claimed pace of 2:15 per 500m or so.

What sort of cadence is typically desirable? Can you give some perspectives on what paces
translate to in rowing? (as in, the
2:15 is sprinting, mid-pack racing (which would mean I should back off the pace), a quick 'jog',
mind-numbingly slow, ...

Lots of questions there, I'll try to answer several.

On a rowing ergometer, a pace of 2:15 minutes per 500m is a decent clip. Stronger more fit rowers
will work at paces of 2:00 and less, and sprinting is well below 2:00 pace.

As for strokes per minute, 30 is probably the fastest you should go on a rowing machine. You can go
faster, but you really sacrifice your form, which will probably lead to injury especially for a non-
rower. If you want an aerobic workout for cross-training or on snow-prohibitive days when you can't
run, you can get a good long vigorous exhausting workout with a stroke rate of 26-30 quite well.
Want to work harder? Try doing the "stroke" part of the rowing cycle (pulling on the oar against
resistance) faster and doing the "recovery" part of the rowing cycle slower, thus applying more
power but not changing your stroke rate. Real rowers try to do this because a quick stroke and a
long recovery allows the boat to move a long way before the next stroke is taken.

Now for exercise machine rowing and real water racing shells. Rowing on an ergometer may translate
to "real" on-water rowing, but there are so many different permutations that I couldn't begin to
guess how to explain. For instance, take your performance of 2:15/500m on the rowing ergometer. If I
put you in a single racing shell, you might go x mph fast. What if I put you in a boat with 7 other
rowers? you go a different speed. If I put you in a boat with 7 other rowers working equally hard
and then put the deadweight of the coxswain into the front of the boat (he's the team member who
steers the boat and yells "stroke" and so forth to the 8 grunting suffering athletes at his
command), then you go a little slower. However, because someone is directing the effort and steering
the boat, perhaps you all go equally fast if not faster due to efficiency, teamwork, and not
crashing into the shore. There are boats of 2 rowers, 4, and 8, each rower with two oars or one,
with or without coxswain.

If you really love your rowing ergometer, I can direct you to a couple places:

www.row2k.com www.concept2.com rec.sport.rowing

Each has a community of athletes and folks in the know who can tell you much more than me regarding
exercise ergometer rowing and the real thing on water.

Best of luck.

-- Josh Steinberg, Syracuse

Actually... if you put him in a single... the first thing he would
probably do is go for an unintended swim 🙂 But swimming if great
exercise too! 🙂

Quoted message said:

For instance, take your performance of 2:15/500m on the rowing ergometer. If I put you in a single
racing shell, you might go x mph fast.

David said:

Actually... if you put him in a single... the first thing he would probably do is go for an
unintended swim 🙂 But swimming if great exercise too! 🙂

You got that right! Hell, put me in a single and I'm constantly apprehensive of flipping, and I have
rowed miles in a single, mostly against my will! Actually, it's sculling that I dislike and sweep
rowing that I enjoy. Alas, rowing has not fit into my life for a couple years now, even though I
cheer on my old teammates as they row when I happen to see them. -- Josh

In article <[email hidden]>,

Josh Steinberg said:

David said:

Actually... if you put him in a single... the first thing he would probably do is go for an
unintended swim 🙂 But swimming if great exercise too! 🙂

You got that right! Hell, put me in a single and I'm constantly apprehensive of flipping, and I
have rowed miles in a single, mostly against my will! Actually, it's sculling that I dislike and
sweep rowing that I enjoy. Alas, rowing has not fit into my life for a couple years now, even
though I cheer on my old teammates as they row when I happen to see them.

Why don't you just row a pair by yourself? :-)

--Harold Buck

"I used to rock and roll all night, and party every day. Then it was every other day. . . ."

- Homer J. Simpson

Josh Wise words, damper wise most beginners start at 10 !! I sure did and now down to 4 or 5 drag
factor around 125, alot kinder on the back. Low steady rows seems to be advocated on the rowing
groups, 18-24 SPM, but technique needs to be pretty good to manage that, and rate a decent time.
Many of the top boys do rate quite high in races though, Graham Benton 5.55 for 2K around 36 SPM and
he is a big guy !! Looks sound technique too to my untrained eye. As you have said loads of useful
info at the sites listed, as well as www.concept2.co.uk Helped me get to 6.55 as a 50 Light weight,
never been in a real boat though !! Cheers Steve

Josh Steinberg <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Robert Grumbine said:

A different couple of questions: I've tended to be pulling high loads (7-10), and will be
backing off that.

Hope that has helped. A setting of 7-10 is REAL steep and a setup for

back trouble. It may seem

Quoted message said:

counterintuitive, but rowing is not a strength sport, it is an endurance

and finesse sport (ok,

Quoted message said:

really a combo of finesse, endurance, and some strength). The real

challenge in rowing is the

Quoted message said:

application of one's power with perfect form, perfect balance, and in

perfect syncrony with the

Quoted message said:

other 7 rowers in the boat, because if your boat is tipped over to one

side from lousy balance, or

Quoted message said:

if your strokes are out of cadence with your teammates, then you and your

boat don't go very fast,

Quoted message said:

you all work unnecessarily hard, and you might even take on a lot of

water! Which is ok for the

Quoted message said:

triathletes here reading who like swimming back to shore, but not for the

rowers who prefer to stay

Quoted message said:

above the water and in the boat! Those high settings of 7 and 10 do

maximally challenge your

Quoted message said:

muscles (and maybe overchallenge your back muscles), but they do not

balance strength with the

Quoted message said:

other performance needs of rowing that real rowers seek. That's why us

rowers recommend and train

Quoted message said:

at lower settings. But I digress...

Quoted message said:

While at those settings, I've typically been around a cadence of 30 or a bit less, and a machine
claimed pace of 2:15 per 500m or so.

What sort of cadence is typically desirable? Can you give some perspectives on what paces
translate to in rowing? (as in, the
2:15 is sprinting, mid-pack racing (which would mean I should back off the pace), a quick 'jog',
mind-numbingly slow, ...

Lots of questions there, I'll try to answer several.

On a rowing ergometer, a pace of 2:15 minutes per 500m is a decent clip.

Stronger more fit rowers

Quoted message said:

will work at paces of 2:00 and less, and sprinting is well below 2:00

pace.

Quoted message said:

As for strokes per minute, 30 is probably the fastest you should go on a

rowing machine. You can

Quoted message said:

go faster, but you really sacrifice your form, which will probably lead to

injury especially for a

Quoted message said:

non-rower. If you want an aerobic workout for cross-training or on

snow-prohibitive days when you

Quoted message said:

can't run, you can get a good long vigorous exhausting workout with a

stroke rate of 26-30 quite

Quoted message said:

well. Want to work harder? Try doing the "stroke" part of the rowing

cycle (pulling on the oar

Quoted message said:

against resistance) faster and doing the "recovery" part of the rowing

cycle slower, thus applying

Quoted message said:

more power but not changing your stroke rate. Real rowers try to do this

because a quick stroke

Quoted message said:

and a long recovery allows the boat to move a long way before the next

stroke is taken.

Quoted message said:

Now for exercise machine rowing and real water racing shells. Rowing on

an ergometer may translate

Quoted message said:

to "real" on-water rowing, but there are so many different permutations

that I couldn't begin to

Quoted message said:

guess how to explain. For instance, take your performance of 2:15/500m on

the rowing ergometer.

Quoted message said:

If I put you in a single racing shell, you might go x mph fast. What if I

put you in a boat with 7

Quoted message said:

other rowers? you go a different speed. If I put you in a boat with 7

other rowers working equally

Quoted message said:

hard and then put the deadweight of the coxswain into the front of the

boat (he's the team member

Quoted message said:

who steers the boat and yells "stroke" and so forth to the 8 grunting

suffering athletes at his

Quoted message said:

command), then you go a little slower. However, because someone is

directing the effort and

Quoted message said:

steering the boat, perhaps you all go equally fast if not faster due to

efficiency, teamwork, and

Quoted message said:

not crashing into the shore. There are boats of 2 rowers, 4, and 8, each

rower with two oars or

Quoted message said:

one, with or without coxswain.

If you really love your rowing ergometer, I can direct you to a couple

places:

Quoted message said:

www.row2k.com www.concept2.com rec.sport.rowing

Each has a community of athletes and folks in the know who can tell you

much more than me regarding

Quoted message said:

exercise ergometer rowing and the real thing on water.

Best of luck.

-- Josh Steinberg, Syracuse

Sorry Josh. I came in mid-thread and had the impression that you only did dry land rowing with an
erg... in which case you probably would flip! Rowing on water is a completely different thing... as
you know. I actually just started last summer and I love it. I'm the exact opposite tho... I LOVE
the single... but for my first competitive summer (this coming) I will probably row in a quad. Not
quite ready to race in a single!!! LOL. I'm looking forward to running all winter and then rowing
all summer. Rowing competitively eats up so much time.

Quoted message said:

Josh Steinberg said:

You got that right! Hell, put me in a single and I'm constantly apprehensive of flipping, and I
have rowed miles in a single, mostly against my will! Actually, it's sculling that I dislike and
sweep rowing that I enjoy. Alas, rowing has not fit into my life for a couple years now, even
though I cheer on my old teammates as they row when I happen to see them.

--
Nova Scotia, Canada

In article <[email hidden]>,

Josh Steinberg said:

Robert Grumbine wrote:

Thanks both you and thotful. I'm not on the machine very often, but would like to do better with
it when I am. And yes, Real Rowers, I have no expectation that I'll carry this over to a real
shell (if I ever encounter one) without some flipping of the shell.

Quoted message said:

Hope that has helped. A setting of 7-10 is REAL steep and a setup for back trouble.

Even more important note then. I'm prone to back problems in the first place.

Quoted message said:

As for strokes per minute, 30 is probably the fastest you should go on a rowing machine. You can go
faster, but you really sacrifice your form, which will probably lead to injury especially for a non-
rower. If you want an aerobic workout for cross-training or on snow-prohibitive days when you can't
run, you can get a good long vigorous exhausting workout with a stroke rate of 26-30 quite well.

That's precisely my interest. I'll be on the rowing machine only on days I'm at the fitness
center. That's typically a snow/ice/cold/ blistering hot/soddenly humid day. The center I go to
has rowing machines next to the stationary bikes and treadmills, so I usually spend some time on
all three.

I was questioning about the stroke rate because I've seen some folks, who look to be rowing
smoothly (whether this is good form or not, I don't know, but assumed so), at a cadence of more
like 40. In running and the stationary bike, I've had good luck with keeping cadence 'high'. But I
didn't know how that translated to rowing.

Thanks folks.

--
Robert Grumbine radix.net~bobgOpen ↗ Science faqs and amateur activities notes and links.
Sagredo (Galileo Galilei) "You present these recondite matters with too much evidence and ease; this
great facility makes them less appreciated than they would be had they been presented in a more
abstruse manner." Two New Sciences

(Robert Grumbine) said:

I have no expectation that I'll carry this over to a real shell (if I ever encounter one) without
some flipping

Well... you may or may not tip. I've been in a single 6 times and I've never flipped... but that was
after a summer of learning in doubles and quads. It is very different from a machine. If you have
have the chance to try rowing a single, you may be astonished at how amazingly unstable they are 🙂
It's almost impossible to keep a single upright and balanced without the oars... the oars
essentially double as outriggers to keep you balanced and upright.

Quoted message said:

(whether this is good form or not, I don't know, but assumed so)

A cadence of 40 is very fast. 25-30 is more than enough to get a good workout. Perhaps a better
measure of effort for you would be to wear a heart rate monitor.

As for form... sculling is a very technical sport. There is so much one can talk about, but here are
a few of the basics off the top of my head...

- Rowing is about pushing with the legs... NOT pulling with the arms. Let the arms 'hang' on the oar
handles during the 'drive' (the part of the stroke when you would be driving the oar blades thru
the water).

- Keep your arms straight on the 'drive' part of the stroke until the last possible moment...
usually after your hands pass over your knees. This is essential in order to transfer the power
from your leg drive to the oars. When rowing a real boat, this also helps you to maintain a
straight course.

- Keep your back straight... head up... hinge at the hips... do not lunge forward or collape over
the knees at the 'catch' (beginning of the next stroke). This again transfers power from the leg
drive, protects your back and... in a real shell... helps to prevent 'check' caused by the stern
being driven into the water when you lunge at the catch.

- Think of the entire rowing motion as one smooth motion... there should be no pausing at the catch
or at anywhere else in the stroke.

- Knees and legs should be in a stright line... don't splay the knees out to the sides or
conversely, hold them together. This stright line helps transfer power from the legs thru the body
to the oar handles.

- At the finish of the stroke, arms go out first... then back... then the kness start to bend
pulling you up the slide... arms, back, legs. Set your body angle during the 'back' portion by
hinging at the hips and keep than same angle all the way up the slide to the 'catch'. The drive is
the exact opposite of the recovery... legs push... back angle swings back... arms finish up.

--
Nova Scotia, Canada

Hallcross said:

Josh Wise words, damper wise most beginners start at 10 !! I sure did and now down to 4 or 5 drag
factor around 125, alot kinder on the back. Low steady rows seems to be advocated on the rowing
groups, 18-24 SPM, but technique needs to be pretty good to manage that, and rate a decent time.
Many of the top boys do rate quite high in races though, Graham Benton 5.55 for 2K around 36 SPM
and he is a big guy !! Looks sound technique too to my untrained eye. As you have said loads of
useful info at the sites listed, as well as www.concept2.co.uk Helped me get to 6.55 as a 50 Light
weight, never been in a real boat though !! Cheers Steve

Good for you, Steve! If you ever get the chance, give a real boat on real water a try. It's one heck
of a thrill. After you master the boat moving and rocking and tipping while you strain to do your
part to balance the boat, it is a fantastic feeling to feel eight oars hitting the water at once and
rocketing the boat forward. The sport has power, speed, finesse, and endurance all rolled up into
one. Cheers, -- Josh

Great advice from David. Enjoy. -- Josh

David said:

(Robert Grumbine) said:

I have no expectation that I'll carry this over to a real shell (if I ever encounter one)
without some flipping

Well... you may or may not tip. I've been in a single 6 times and I've never flipped... but that
was after a summer of learning in doubles and quads. It is very different from a machine. If you
have have the chance to try rowing a single, you may be astonished at how amazingly unstable they
are 🙂 It's almost impossible to keep a single upright and balanced without the oars... the oars
essentially double as outriggers to keep you balanced and upright.

Quoted message said:

(whether this is good form or not, I don't know, but assumed so)

A cadence of 40 is very fast. 25-30 is more than enough to get a good workout. Perhaps a better
measure of effort for you would be to wear a heart rate monitor.

As for form... sculling is a very technical sport. There is so much one can talk about, but here
are a few of the basics off the top of my head...

- Rowing is about pushing with the legs... NOT pulling with the arms. Let the arms 'hang' on the
oar handles during the 'drive' (the part of the stroke when you would be driving the oar blades
thru the water).

- Keep your arms straight on the 'drive' part of the stroke until the last possible moment...
usually after your hands pass over your knees. This is essential in order to transfer the power
from your leg drive to the oars. When rowing a real boat, this also helps you to maintain a
straight course.

- Keep your back straight... head up... hinge at the hips... do not lunge forward or collape over
the knees at the 'catch' (beginning of the next stroke). This again transfers power from the leg
drive, protects your back and... in a real shell... helps to prevent 'check' caused by the stern
being driven into the water when you lunge at the catch.

- Think of the entire rowing motion as one smooth motion... there should be no pausing at the
catch or at anywhere else in the stroke.

- Knees and legs should be in a stright line... don't splay the knees out to the sides or
conversely, hold them together. This stright line helps transfer power from the legs thru the
body to the oar handles.

- At the finish of the stroke, arms go out first... then back... then the kness start to bend
pulling you up the slide... arms, back, legs. Set your body angle during the 'back' portion by
hinging at the hips and keep than same angle all the way up the slide to the 'catch'. The drive
is the exact opposite of the recovery... legs push... back angle swings back... arms finish up.

--
Nova Scotia, Canada

Harold Buck said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Josh Steinberg said:

Hell, put me in a single and I'm constantly apprehensive of flipping, and I have rowed miles in
a single, mostly against my will! Actually, it's sculling that I dislike and sweep rowing that I
enjoy.

Why don't you just row a pair by yourself? :-)

Harold, I'm not sure I understand you. How does a single person row a pair on one's own? -- Josh

In article <[email hidden]>,

Josh Steinberg said:

Harold Buck said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Josh Steinberg said:

Hell, put me in a single and I'm constantly apprehensive of flipping, and I have rowed miles
in a single, mostly against my will! Actually, it's sculling that I dislike and sweep rowing
that I enjoy.

Why don't you just row a pair by yourself? :-)

Harold, I'm not sure I understand you. How does a single person row a pair on one's own?

Um, why don't you re-check the smiley at the end of the line and ask yourself if I was serious or if
I was joking?

--Harold Buck

"I used to rock and roll all night, and party every day. Then it was every other day. . . ."

- Homer J. Simpson