RPE v. PT-Interesting Ride

kopride said:

Obviously, there are many alternatives, including that I simply rode closer to my FTP than I thought, or that I am underestimating my FTP after a good winter, and need to go out and do a one hour tt soon, or the outdoor v. indoor factor,

Two more: 1) that you were very well rested. Do you know what your TSB was that day? 2) Torque was not zeroed. Are there any zero torque values in your file at all?

Quoted post said:

but it was a shockingly comfortable ride given what my power numbers were. I have done my share of 2x 20s @ 245-255 this winter and it was certainly more comfortable than those sessions. In some sense, I am annoyed that I didn't do a legitimate one hour tt given how good I felt.

There will be other opportunities. Assuming torque was zero'ed it's probably fair to move up your FTP estimate. But I would do a test soon.

Quoted post said:

I am debating whether I just want to throw the PT in the pocket again when I do my next one hour TT.

Or just put black tape over the power readout.

kopride said:

Sunday, it looked like it might rain so I threw my wireless PT into my gore tex windbreaker to avoid any water damage. In any event, I decided to go out and ride a one hour interval, based upon my watch, at what I estimated (perceived exertion) was about 85% of my estimated FTP of 270, which is about a 230 average. Even accounting for the vaguries of PE, the ride clearly felt comfortably below 235 watts. In any event, when I downloaded the data, I was surprised to see it read a 263 average for the one hour. Obviously, there are many alternatives, including that I simply rode closer to my FTP than I thought, or that I am underestimating my FTP after a good winter, and need to go out and do a one hour tt soon, or the outdoor v. indoor factor, but it was a shockingly comfortable ride given what my power numbers were. I have done my share of 2x 20s @ 245-255 this winter and it was certainly more comfortable than those sessions. In some sense, I am annoyed that I didn't do a legitimate one hour tt given how good I felt. In any event, I am going to adjust up to FTP 280 and start planning my workouts around that number until I do a one hour TT. I am debating whether I just want to throw the PT in the pocket again when I do my next one hour TT.

outdoors, I usually lock mine in Max power mode - effectively blanking out power feedback. These are not target/key workouts but I don't like relying on power all the time. Some day you're going to have to ride and race without it!

Steve_B said:

Two more: 1) that you were very well rested. Do you know what your TSB was that day? 2) Torque was not zeroed. Are there any zero torque values in your file at all? There will be other opportunities. Assuming torque was zero'ed it's probably fair to move up your FTP estimate. But I would do a test soon. Or just put black tape over the power readout.

Torque was definitely zeroed, (there are a number of zero values) . . . that would have been a bummer. Don't know my TSB for the day though, but Sat I had ridden a fairly hard set of over/under intervals, and I rode pretty hard indoors (2 x 20 @ 245) on Thursday as well. Time was a premium on Sundays (Mother's Day) and I didn't want to come home so blown out that my wife would be annoyed that all I wanted to do was lounge on the couch, so I figured I would just ride a good hour in the sweet spot, and keep the total ride to 90 minutes. I definitely need to do a test soon.

Last test I had it set to average power, and it was rough watching the number click downwards during the last 20 minutes. Before that last test, I was doing a lot more 2 x 20s. lately, I have been mixing in longer intervals of 30s , 45's, and 50s, because I felt that my routine was causing my body to almost want to rest after a steady 20 minute effort. We will see. Weather is supposed to be crappy out east this weekend, so I will run a test next weekend. I am actually looking forward to it.

kopride said:

Don't know my TSB for the day though, but Sat I had ridden a fairly hard set of over/under intervals, and I rode pretty hard indoors (2 x 20 @ 245) on Thursday as well.

You would really have to look at your training going back at least 7 days, probably more like 14 days, to really have a better handle on how well rested you were.

If you had maintained the same training schedule last week (and the week before that) you had been doing for weeks leading up to it and if you weren't riding easy Monday-Wednesday last week, then there's a good possibility that you were not well rested. OTOH, if you did take it easy in the early part of the week (and also the week before), then Saturday likely "opened you up" for Sunday. Friday was good rest and recovery. Thursday may have been enough to keep "the fire" burning and make sure that your body didn't "shut down".

If you plan on testing this coming weekend, I would not increase training volume at all this week. Probably do the roughly same thing. Two days before test day, ride easy or take it off completely. This will maximize the amount of freshness on test day. The day before test day, maybe not so much volume and intensity the day before as you did last Saturday (maybe cut volume and intensity in half). A good workout at mid-week (such as what you did on Thursday) would be important.

+1 on increasing the intervals to 40, 50 and longer. I did that starting about a couple weeks ago and has made a huge difference for me.

I was really in the 20 minute routine and I was starting to doubt my FTP becuase I was feeling so drained with the 20 minute efforts at 230-250 range. I tried extending and magically after 30 minutes my body got into a groove and the hour was not that much worse than the 20 minute effort. My ftp of 260 feels very tough at 1 hour but I feel I can now do about 280 for 20 minutes.

I have also become kind of a hermit and addicted to CT and GYM. I need to get out more cause the last time I did put an hour in at CP without looking at the PM and not trying I pulled off a 255. I was surprised to see that number as I did not think I was putting out that much power.

Hey 300 is in the cards for you soon...

-js

kopride said:

Torque was definitely zeroed, (there are a number of zero values) . . . that would have been a bummer. Don't know my TSB for the day though, but Sat I had ridden a fairly hard set of over/under intervals, and I rode pretty hard indoors (2 x 20 @ 245) on Thursday as well. Time was a premium on Sundays (Mother's Day) and I didn't want to come home so blown out that my wife would be annoyed that all I wanted to do was lounge on the couch, so I figured I would just ride a good hour in the sweet spot, and keep the total ride to 90 minutes. I definitely need to do a test soon.

Last test I had it set to average power, and it was rough watching the number click downwards during the last 20 minutes. Before that last test, I was doing a lot more 2 x 20s. lately, I have been mixing in longer intervals of 30s , 45's, and 50s, because I felt that my routine was causing my body to almost want to rest after a steady 20 minute effort. We will see. Weather is supposed to be crappy out east this weekend, so I will run a test next weekend. I am actually looking forward to it.

kopride said:

outdoor v. indoor factor.....

That's where I'll put my money. I usually get a nice little treat during the first couple weeks of outdoor riding.

frenchyge said:

That's where I'll put my money. I usually get a nice little treat during the few couple weeks of outdoor riding.

+1, I'm enjoying that outdoor boost right now with records falling weekly, too bad you can't stay on that success curve indefinitely 🙁

-Dave

frenchyge said:

That's where I'll put my money. I usually get a nice little treat during the first couple weeks of outdoor riding.

I dunno, I ripped out 2 x 20@ 255 yesterday indoors, and it felt pretty comfortable. Outdoors, I will say that a rolling course seems to help boosting the power averages. I seem to be averaging better power on my courses over rolling hills than the runs I make along the river (flat from start to finish). Somehow, mixing in a few hills and descents, sitting and standing, breaks that mindless grind for 60 minutes you get indoors and on a flat path in the drops. There is a big part of these long intervals that is just mental. If you can't get your mind off of anything other than how much you are suffering, you will never find that magic groove. For me, clock watching and staring at my PM for an hour takes a toll mentally --even if I get some of my best training indoors that way. I wonder whether that is a big part of the "indoor v. outdoor." In any event, until the rainy weather breaks and I can do a legitimate one hour TT, I am going to set my workouts around an estimated 280FTP and see if I see improvement or burnout.

Keep it up...I am right behind you man.

My numbers and feelings are matching you almost exact and I can tell this can be the year for the magic 300. You did that 20 I believe earlier in this thread at like 320?? so I think with proper rest now it should happen. I have been now flat lining my CTL and pushing and pulling the watts. My plan is sometime in late August...

My wife just told me she wants to go to Hawaii, Maui in August...I can not wait now as I will bring the bike and from what I hear it will be killer. The perfect time to bang out the 300!

-js

kopride said:

I dunno, I ripped out 2 x 20@ 255 yesterday indoors, and it felt pretty comfortable. Outdoors, I will say that a rolling course seems to help boosting the power averages. I seem to be averaging better power on my courses over rolling hills than the runs I make along the river (flat from start to finish). Somehow, mixing in a few hills and descents, sitting and standing, breaks that mindless grind for 60 minutes you get indoors and on a flat path in the drops. There is a big part of these long intervals that is just mental. If you can't get your mind off of anything other than how much you are suffering, you will never find that magic groove. For me, clock watching and staring at my PM for an hour takes a toll mentally --even if I get some of my best training indoors that way. I wonder whether that is a big part of the "indoor v. outdoor." In any event, until the rainy weather breaks and I can do a legitimate one hour TT, I am going to set my workouts around an estimated 280FTP and see if I see improvement or burnout.

Steve_B said:

.....Or just put black tape over the power readout.

I think everyone should do this at least once per week.

jsirabella said:

Keep it up...I am right behind you man.

My numbers and feelings are matching you almost exact and I can tell this can be the year for the magic 300. You did that 20 I believe earlier in this thread at like 320?? so I think with proper rest now it should happen. I have been now flat lining my CTL and pushing and pulling the watts. My plan is sometime in late August...

My wife just told me she wants to go to Hawaii, Maui in August...I can not wait now as I will bring the bike and from what I hear it will be killer. The perfect time to bang out the 300!

-js

Look at the airline costs to bring your own bike or join the USCF and get a airline voucher. We now rent every year in Moab because it is cheaper than bringing our own bike, just bring your shoes, pedals and helmet. If we hit 300 in August, that would be a hoot.

As an aside, my bench press numbers are going up as well! I have totally stopped my old 3 x week structured weight workouts in favor of random strength training every day. I picked up some kettle bells, some gymnastic rings, and some other old school stuff (pull up bars, barbells, dumbells, ropes and benches) and basically do push/pull workouts of some type every day, both vertical and horizontal, with pistols (one legged squats) substituting for heavy leg lifting. A typical day is pistols, weighted dips and chins 3(5) x 3 (sub maximal sets done randomly throughout the day), some static holds (planche and front lever), and then some core ab work and a basic ring series. Other days it is a 15 minute kettlebell workout, or handstand pushups and front lever pull ups. Another, it migh be 5 x 3 bench and 3 x 5 deadlift. I mix in some one armed stuff: one armed push ups. one armed handstand, one armed flexed hang (i cant do a legitimate unassisted one armed pull up yet) and am also working on harder stuff like flags, and muscle ups. Basically it is a few minutes in the morning, a few when I first get home from work and then a few right before I go to bed. If I ride, a few minutes after I warm down and stretch.

The beauty is that I can squeeze in another riding session per week (riding 5 x week) because I am not devoting specific days to lifting. The rings and gymnastic static holds in particular have been great. Doing weighted dips on rings is completely different than on a stand. And the planche in particular makes regular pushups look like sissy work. If I can bench 300 the same year I hit 300 FTP, then I will consider the season a real success. (275 seems a more realistic goal for the bench).

I have still been focusing on the big three but I am now making the cycling a priority similar to you. I really go by how I feel and depending on the week and my cycle training I will either do one or two body parts that week. I really only care about three parts anyway, back, legs and chest, deadlift, squat, bench. Ofcourse back comes first.

I do like the workout you describe especially the 5X3 or 3X5...because the bike is so aerobic and killer, I have been doing more sets of three...actaully as many on one exercise in 20 minutes. This usually adds up to about 10-12 sets. I will keep the weight at about 80% of 1RM and than over a four week period get closer to 95% with each set being only 1 rep. This does not make me tired but improves technique on the exercise.

The next day I will do a recovery workout of 20 minutes which will mean the same exercise at 50% the weight but trying to get upwards of 20 reps or more our of each set. This gets the blood in there and gets those muscles to heal faster.

I was never into ropes and such being a plate head but lately I have been doing some iso stuff like iso push ups, iso deadlifts, iso squats....to help with my numbers. I have been getting stronger and do not feel I am letting it get in the way of cycling but who knows really.

On saturday I am lucky where I can do anything I want for 3-4 hours so if I do the gym and the indoor bike I can do weighted dips, pull ups and really have fun. Currently daughter is still going to school so I have to wake up get my 70 minutes on the bike, take her to school, go to work, go to gym get the other time for more bike and weights, shower and run to work....pretty soon I will have more time in the morning for myself.

I was able to get real cheap a used Ritchey breakaway which has been great for travel as I just put in a case and I can check it in no problem. I have an extra cable for PT and just bring my back wheel. The bike is not bad at all...

Friend of mine just got back from Boulder and said it was amazing, never been to either Moab or Boulder but it sounds like CO is really hardcore bike country.

-js

kopride said:

Look at the airline costs to bring your own bike or join the USCF and get a airline voucher. We now rent every year in Moab because it is cheaper than bringing our own bike, just bring your shoes, pedals and helmet. If we hit 300 in August, that would be a hoot.

As an aside, my bench press numbers are going up as well! I have totally stopped my old 3 x week structured weight workouts in favor of random strength training every day. I picked up some kettle bells, some gymnastic rings, and some other old school stuff (pull up bars, barbells, dumbells, ropes and benches) and basically do push/pull workouts of some type every day, both vertical and horizontal, with pistols (one legged squats) substituting for heavy leg lifting. A typical day is pistols, weighted dips and chins 3(5) x 3 (sub maximal sets done randomly throughout the day), some static holds (planche and front lever), and then some core ab work and a basic ring series. Other days it is a 15 minute kettlebell workout, or handstand pushups and front lever pull ups. Another, it migh be 5 x 3 bench and 3 x 5 deadlift. I mix in some one armed stuff: one armed push ups. one armed handstand, one armed flexed hang (i cant do a legitimate unassisted one armed pull up yet) and am also working on harder stuff like flags, and muscle ups. Basically it is a few minutes in the morning, a few when I first get home from work and then a few right before I go to bed. If I ride, a few minutes after I warm down and stretch.

The beauty is that I can squeeze in another riding session per week (riding 5 x week) because I am not devoting specific days to lifting. The rings and gymnastic static holds in particular have been great. Doing weighted dips on rings is completely different than on a stand. And the planche in particular makes regular pushups look like sissy work. If I can bench 300 the same year I hit 300 FTP, then I will consider the season a real success. (275 seems a more realistic goal for the bench).

weightlifting talk? 🙂

So last week I go in on Monday after doing a century on the 3rd and hammer out some squats & leg presses thinking I was going to spend the next weekend with my wife instead of cycling, but my friends talked me into another century on the 10th. From about mile 40 to 100 it was a long painful ride. My friends dropped me at about mile 50. It was those dreaded squats.

Still I beat my time by a slight margin compared to last year. Wonder what I could have done without training legs on that Monday.

JR, are you going to do that famous mountain climb in Hawaii?

Squats and Leg Presses before a century would be killer. Also given that you already did a century the week before that makes it even crazier. Not much of a leg press man myself but I have found that this time of the year I can only work it in every other week again for the two datys, one heavy and one recovery. I never really did box squats but after reading a few articles I started to do box squats. They are definitely tougher for me.

That is the plan lets just hope the volcano does not get the best of me. The guy who did Boulder travels alot and he told me that Hawaii is a no win, you are either going up or you are getting nailed by the winds along the shore....sounds like fun...😄.,,,if I can survive it.

-js

Felt_Rider said:

weightlifting talk? 🙂

So last week I go in on Monday after doing a century on the 3rd and hammer out some squats & leg presses thinking I was going to spend the next weekend with my wife instead of cycling, but my friends talked me into another century on the 10th. From about mile 40 to 100 it was a long painful ride. My friends dropped me at about mile 50. It was those dreaded squats.

Still I beat my time by a slight margin compared to last year. Wonder what I could have done without training legs on that Monday.

JR, are you going to do that famous mountain climb in Hawaii?

Maybe these will get you more excited. Makes me want to go.

Pretty cool look at eye level with the clouds

kopride said:

I dunno, I ripped out 2 x 20@ 255 yesterday indoors, and it felt pretty comfortable.

Cool. You said above that 2x20 @ 245 was a *pretty hard* ride just last Thursday.

kopride said:

Outdoors, I will say that a rolling course seems to help boosting the power averages.

You don't, by chance, have you PT set up to not record power while coasting do you?

kopride said:

Sunday, it looked like it might rain so I threw my wireless PT into my gore tex windbreaker to avoid any water damage.

Do the PT's have a problem with water?

Just curious.

swampy1970 said:

Do the PT's have a problem with water?

Just curious.

Early PT and PT Pro models sometimes had water issues that could be taken care of with a bit of dielectric grease on the hub cover and possibly the CPU cradle. SL and newer units seem to have much less trouble (I've gotten soaked like a drowned rat in afternoon thunderstorms around here that didn't cause any data dropouts with stock SL units, no grease) but if you ride in the rain a lot the dielectric grease is probably a good idea. I've also heard of folks covering their CPU with a plastic bag held in place with a rubber band but I've never tried that or needed it.

-Dave

daveryanwyoming said:

Early PT and PT Pro models sometimes had water issues that could be taken care of with a bit of dielectric grease on the hub cover and possibly the CPU cradle. SL and newer units seem to have much less trouble (I've gotten soaked like a drowned rat in afternoon thunderstorms around here that didn't cause any data dropouts with stock SL units, no grease) but if you ride in the rain a lot the dielectric grease is probably a good idea. I've also heard of folks covering their CPU with a plastic bag held in place with a rubber band but I've never tried that or needed it.

-Dave

Just curious... Was thinking about a future purchase - most probably the wireless SL.