Running Routes - Design

William Ducklow said:

Hello everyone.

For my long runs, I sit down with MS Streets & Trips and design a route
that matches the distance of what I want to run. I print that and take it
with me on my run.

I have always wondered what everyone else does. Do you use a software
program?

When I used to run roads, I used MS S&T a few times, but it puts the
northeast corner of my subdivision in a large river. Needless to say I
don't trust it. I think the roads may be ok, but the physical features
are poorly located.

If I use a software program for trails, I'm most likely to use All Topos
Alaska, since it was one of the few that uses the most recent USGS maps.
Of course, most of the USGS maps are out of date and may not show the
trails accurately.

I'm equally likely to use a trail map for a particular trail system (the
kind you pick up at trailhead) or a trail guidebook or occasionally tag
along with someone else. Just depends what I'm doin'.

I'll either pick an area I've never been before or maybe a sub-route (or
super-route) within something I've hiked or skied, but not run. I take a
best guess at distance, elevation change, and course difficulty to
estimate my time to see if that's what's close to what I have planned
for that day (time, distance, elevation). If not, I may alter that
course or put it aside for a different day and pick another route to
achieve today's goals.

Quoted message said:

Do you run by time? GPS?

I run by time. If a long run, esp. on a new route, I'll generally take
my GPS with me to map the route, but it's on top my camelbak so I don't
see any of the data while running (may check distance and/or elevation
if I stop for another reason, like pictures). I'm tending to use my
Polar S625x for distance and elevation estimates *after* the run. It
seems to be giving me reasonable numbers across an assortment of
conditions - except slick ice. At least I can't prove them wrong.

Most of our snowshoe club runs are out/back so we can head back
individually based on our desired duration for the day. On my regular
trails, I'm more likely to do loops, but I may also try to run out/back
to a particular landmark (and why my TOL doesn't always build according
to hoyle or my plans).

Dot

--
"Do or do not. There is no try." -Yoda

Dan Stumpus said:

Typically, I lose about 8-9 minutes for every 1000' of climb (and equal
descent) on a long trail run.

A good rule of thumb is to add a mile's worth of time for every 1000' of
climb. So if your pace for a flat 20M averages 8 MPM, a 20M run with
4000' of climb *should* take about 32 minutes longer. I've found this
works on most grades, but if a course has REAL steep ups, the
differential will be greater and even steep downs where you can't run
full out can slow the pace down some.
--
- The Trailrunner

Anti-Spam Alert: If you wish to reply, cut the *BS*

Trails of the Diablo Valley
*Running - Hiking - Nature*
http://www.geocities.com/yosemite/trails/6016/

Dan Stumpus said:

Typically, I lose about 8-9 minutes for every 1000' of climb (and equal
descent) on a long trail run.

A good rule of thumb is to add a mile's worth of time for every 1000' of
climb. So if your pace for a flat 20M averages 8 MPM, a 20M run with
4000' of climb *should* take about 32 minutes longer. I've found this
works on most grades, but if a course has REAL steep ups, the
differential will be greater and even steep downs where you can't run
full out can slow the pace down some.
--
- The Trailrunner

Anti-Spam Alert: If you wish to reply, cut the *BS*

Trails of the Diablo Valley
*Running - Hiking - Nature*
http://www.geocities.com/yosemite/trails/6016/

Tony' qtrader2@(remove)hotmail.com said:

About 20 years ago I read a book (don't remember which) that talked about
runners becoming obsessed with pace and distance. The author suggested
recording either distance or time, but not both. Since then I record only
time for 99% of my exercise, including running and cycling.

Same here. But I used to be as obsessive as Phil M. <g>

I could tell you exactly how far and at what pace I ran/biked/swam
going back to 19<mumble, mumble>

But now I use time goals - often set in terms of blocks of time like
you. Mine often incorporate two disciplines - swim/run. bike/run,
swim/bike, but it's the total time, not the distances, that matter.

Mike Tennent
"IronPenguin"

Mike Tennent said:

Tony' qtrader2@(remove)hotmail.com said:

About 20 years ago I read a book (don't remember which) that talked

about

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

runners becoming obsessed with pace and distance. The author

suggested

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

recording either distance or time, but not both. Since then I record

only

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

time for 99% of my exercise, including running and cycling.

Same here. But I used to be as obsessive as Phil M. <g>

I doubt it. I didn't mention that I also use an HRM. So on top of all
the mapping/time/distance data I've also got the
HR/Max/Zone/Time/Distance data, not to mention the
weather/terrain/climb/shoes/clothing/hydration/weight data. ;-)

Quoted message said:

I could tell you exactly how far and at what pace I ran/biked/swam
going back to 19<mumble, mumble>

October 10, 1995 for me. Except when I first started I was just using a
Casio watch. I started out using a Quattro Pro (Borland at the time)
spreadsheet.

Phil M.

Phil M. said:

I doubt it. I didn't mention that I also use an HRM. So on top of all
the mapping/time/distance data I've also got the
HR/Max/Zone/Time/Distance data, not to mention the
weather/terrain/climb/shoes/clothing/hydration/weight data. ;-)

For curiosity, do you record this as one value or description for the
entire run - or do you break it down by time when the weather changed
from sun to rain to snow, trail changed from dirt to rocky / rooty,
footing changed from snow to ice to mud and back, wind direction
changed, etc.? 😉 I have long since abandoned an "adjustment" factor
for snow / ice conditions when I used to run on road.

Dot

--
"Do or do not. There is no try." -Yoda

Dot said:

Phil M. said:

I doubt it. I didn't mention that I also use an HRM. So on top of

all

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the mapping/time/distance data I've also got the
HR/Max/Zone/Time/Distance data, not to mention the
weather/terrain/climb/shoes/clothing/hydration/weight data. ;-)

For curiosity, do you record this as one value or description for the

Quoted message said:

entire run - or do you break it down by time when the weather changed

Quoted message said:

from sun to rain to snow, trail changed from dirt to rocky / rooty,
footing changed from snow to ice to mud and back, wind direction
changed, etc.? 😉 I have long since abandoned an "adjustment" factor

Quoted message said:

for snow / ice conditions when I used to run on road.

I usually just make a note of the conditions and whether or not I think
it may have impacted my running pace. Also I make note of what I wore
how that impacted my comfort level. I've got enough data now so that I
can look at past history for a given temp/sun/wind/humidity and be able
to dress appropriately. Sometimes I'll break it down by time if it is a
long run and the weather took a drastic turn.

BTW, I'm looking at rain and upper 30s today for a scheduled 10 miles
w/ vo2 intervals. Yuk!

Phil M.

William Ducklow said:

Hello everyone.

For my long runs, I sit down with MS Streets & Trips and design a route
that matches the distance of what I want to run. I print that and take it
with me on my run.

I have always wondered what everyone else does. Do you use a software
program? Do you run by time? GPS?

The real numbers don't matter that much to me, so I use a combination of
mapquest and effort and time compared with effort and time on some
local measured courses.

So I'll find a route that I know I want to do again, run it at a
moderate pace, taking note of street names and addresses. Mapquest the
legs of the run that can be mapquested (can't do parks or trails). I'll
take splits with my stopwatch at the points I've mapquested next time I
run, figure my pace for the legs that I've done and extrapolate that
pace onto the places I couldn't mapquest, trying to keep the same effort
as the time before. Once a week or so I run in a place that has known
distances. When I run there I get an idea of how accurate my distances
are on my self-measured routes and adjust them when I think they're off.

"The Trailrunner" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

A good rule of thumb is to add a mile's worth of time for every 1000' of
climb. So if your pace for a flat 20M averages 8 MPM, a 20M run with 4000'
of climb *should* take about 32 minutes longer. I've found this works on
most grades, but if a course has REAL steep ups, the differential will be
greater and even steep downs where you can't run full out can slow the
pace down some.

Totally. Or as Prince Charles would say: "Quite."

"Mike Tennent" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

I could tell you exactly how far and at what pace I ran/biked/swam
going back to 19<mumble, mumble>

Not me. But I can rattle off my PR's in a heartbeat. That's good enough
for me!

Dan Stumpus said:

"Mike Tennent" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

I could tell you exactly how far and at what pace I ran/biked/swam
going back to 19<mumble, mumble>

Not me. But I can rattle off my PR's in a heartbeat. That's good enough
for me!

I wish I could get PR's again.

PW's are more like it now. <g>

Mike Tennent
"IronPenguin"

Phil M. wrote in message

Quoted message said:

snip<
October 10, 1995 for me. Except when I first started I was just using a
Casio watch. I started out using a Quattro Pro (Borland at the time)
spreadsheet.

Phil M.

Quattro pro was great! Another example of a great company (run by a lunatic
yes) that got mowed under by those pirate [censored] at msft.

-T

Leafing through rec.running, I read a message from
qtrader2@(remove)hotmail.com of 19 Mar 2005:

Quoted message said:

Phil M. wrote in message

Quoted message said:

snip<
October 10, 1995 for me. Except when I first started I was just using
a Casio watch. I started out using a Quattro Pro (Borland at the time)
spreadsheet.

Phil M.

Quattro pro was great! Another example of a great company (run by a
lunatic yes) that got mowed under by those pirate [censored] at msft.

You can still get it as part of WordPerfect Office 12 for around $200.

Phil M.

William Ducklow wrote in message ...

Quoted message said:

Hello everyone.

For my long runs, I sit down with MS Streets & Trips and design a route
that matches the distance of what I want to run. I print that and take it
with me on my run.

I have always wondered what everyone else does. Do you use a software
program? Do you run by time? GPS?

Since I come from an orienteering background, where there are few trails and
only checkpoints, only time counts. If the stated course length is 13km, the
runner will cover a great deal more, even without getting lost at all. A
respectable overall pace for orienteering on the east coast was under 10
mins/km when I was active in that. Elite times ranged from under 7m/km up to
10m/km on the rougher terrain.

Since then I often wander the local trail systems when running, taking
different turns according to my whim. Then I can cut/add segments on the way
home to come up with the rough overall time that I want. It's more fun that
way, and I can also exercise skills inherited from the ancestors.

When I lived in India, it was illegal to own a detailed map, so I had to
memorize the trail systems and landmarks, which is a largely forgotten
ability among modern humans, and it was extremely hard to do at first.

-Tony

Phil M. said:

Leafing through rec.running, I read a message from
qtrader2@(remove)hotmail.com of 19 Mar 2005:

Quoted message said:

Phil M. wrote in message

Quoted message said:

snip<
October 10, 1995 for me. Except when I first started I was just using
a Casio watch. I started out using a Quattro Pro (Borland at the time)
spreadsheet.

Phil M.

Quattro pro was great! Another example of a great company (run by a
lunatic yes) that got mowed under by those pirate [censored] at msft.

You can still get it as part of WordPerfect Office 12 for around $200.

Phil M.

Problem is, Corel hasn't kept up on compatibility issues. One of the
beauties of Quattro originally was its compatibility with most things.
I recognize the inability of much current software to read some Quattro
files (usually the older ones, like I have for some old projects) isn't
Corel's fault. IMHO, I think WordPerfect and Quattro haven't been the
products they were when Corel took over.

Dot

--
"Do or do not. There is no try." -Yoda

"Mike Tennent" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Not me. But I can rattle off my PR's in a heartbeat. That's good enough
for me!

Quoted message said:

I wish I could get PR's again.

PW's are more like it now. <g>

You and me both. Let me tell you a little secret: move up to ultras. A
whole new universe awaits.

5 miles o store.
5 miles to another store.
8 miles to hwy.
10 miles to x job sight.
mile roads.
880 for year
11.1 a day ×79 days
picking up 10¢ cans on bike with backpack to store nd back.
r=5.5
goal 5200 miles for 2005
or over 5000 miles......
spring today at 7:33 est.
sun 0°N 5°1' W
7hrs latter
View from Sun: 149001836 km above 0°7'N 117°W
19:55:22 juilan time
7 hrs 22 minutes latter sun at
117° west
117-5=112°
360°-112°=248°
North 7°

Do the math.
Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
Happy 2005 spring everyone.
Tong waging. ahhhhhhhhhhh