Running with a GPS

In article said:

Hi. I'm wondering if many of you guys have tried running with a GPS, and what your experience has
been. I know this is sort of apples and oranges, but how do they compare with the Timex GPS
watches ? The GPS unit I'm interested is the Garmin Gecko 201.

^^^^^ I mean, Geko!

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi pegasus.rutgers.edu~elflordOpen ↗

It works, but may not be as convenient and it may not sample often enough to stay accurate if your
path is not straight.

--
Joseph E. Meehan

26 + 6 = 1 It's Irish Math

"Donovan Rebbechi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hi. I'm wondering if many of you guys have tried running with a GPS, and what your experience has
been. I know this is sort of apples and oranges, but how do they compare with the Timex GPS
watches ? The GPS unit I'm interested is the Garmin Gecko 201.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi pegasus.rutgers.edu~elflordOpen ↗

Donovan,

I don't personally run with a GPS, but two people in our morning running group have one - but I
don't know what manufacturer or what model. Here are my observations:

1) Occasionally it loses the signal, so it'll miss a 1/2 mile or so. It's surprising how oftern the
signal drops out, we're about half way between Ft. Worth and Denton TX, there are no hills amd
we're outisde the city and big-time interference, so I don't understand why this happens.

2) Rechargeable batteries are a good idea.

3) One of our preferred 8 mile courses turned out to be 7.96 miles. Damn! Should we go back and
update our log books? Can we write it off to interpolation? Should we run a few laps of the
parking lot to make up for lost distance?

Alan.

"Donovan Rebbechi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hi. I'm wondering if many of you guys have tried running with a GPS, and what your experience has
been. I know this is sort of apples and oranges, but how do they compare with the Timex GPS
watches ? The GPS unit I'm interested is the Garmin Gecko 201.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi pegasus.rutgers.edu~elflordOpen ↗

Donovan Rebbechi said:

Hi. I'm wondering if many of you guys have tried running with a GPS, and what your experience has
been. I know this is sort of apples and oranges, but how do they compare with the Timex GPS
watches ? The GPS unit I'm interested is the Garmin Gecko 201.

It depends what you want it for, ie. what type data and how precise are you expecting it. I've used
a Garmin 12XL and Etrex Vista reasonably successfully for trail running. (Both were originally
obtained for marking plot locations at work, so neither one were purchased intentionally for running
- and the Vista is borrowed so I could teach the guy how to use it.) Both have the same patch
antenna and receive somewhat similarly ("identical" according to Garmin). There are better GPS's out
there with better antennas (has a 76 in name, but not sure which Garmin). The Geko uses a patch, but
not sure if same.

My original intention was to map the maze-like trails that I use (no map was available), then
overlay on electronic map, and get mileage and elevation change estimates from there. Then I
discovered the tripmeters
- time moving (and not moving) and estimated distance. The Vista also has a barometric altimeter
with an elevational profile and total elevation gained as well as max climb segment. I think I
compared my bike computer with my 12XL and had almost exact distance readings. I've compared my
bike computer with 1-mile section line roads, and it was right on, iirc. The estimates I get may
not be completely accurate but they are sufficiently accurate for my purposes and way better than
the map routine, not to mention easier.

GPS units sometimes have trouble receiving under trees or heavy rain or clouds or when the
satellites are uncooperative. Times when the satellites are poorly configured are predictable and
there's a program to estimate this. I don't worry about it when running, but it is an issue for some
of my work. Reception in SC Alaska is not always the greatest, and WAAS is too low on the horizon, I
think, but it might be ok in NJ.

Barometric altimeters also have issues as air pressure changes as result of storm or temperature,
rather than actual elevation change.

I used to lose reception a fair amount when I carried the thing in my hand, but on my last bike and
run, I put it in a mesh bag on back of camelbak or bottle holder, and I got much cleaner traces that
backtracked much closer than in the past. On rare occasion, I have used it to look at pace, just to
get an idea how different it was on flat, open field vs twisty single-track in woods. Good way to
run into trees, so I just use to record data now. Same reason why I seldom look at hrm.

Since I run on trails with mud, snow, water, and variable footing, I've not been convinced that the
devices with foot gizmos would work that well. And it wouldn't work on bike either 😉

In my case, having the ability to upload and download routes in a regular GPS is nice.

Dot

--
"Success is different things to different people" -Bernd Heinrich in Racing the Antelope

Donovan,

I have a Magellan Map 330 that I sometimes use to geocache but have never run with it. I run
with my Timex GPS and I love it! It may very well be the best item I've ever purchased. I never
run without it. If you don't already own one and are interested in purchasing one let me know
and I'll give you the name of the place where I got mine. I got it for $75 cheaper than you
usually find them.

Dave

"Donovan Rebbechi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hi. I'm wondering if many of you guys have tried running with a GPS, and what your experience has
been. I know this is sort of apples and oranges, but how do they compare with the Timex GPS
watches ? The GPS unit I'm interested is the Garmin Gecko 201.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi pegasus.rutgers.edu~elflordOpen ↗

Donovan Rebbechi said:

Hi. I'm wondering if many of you guys have tried running with a GPS, and what your experience has
been. I know this is sort of apples and oranges, but how do they compare with the Timex GPS
watches ? The GPS unit I'm interested is the Garmin Gecko 201.

all these fancy nancy gadgets won't make you faster..

go out and run, get a real job, and stop trying to sell this [censored] in the newsgroups

In sci.geo.satellite-nav Donovan Rebbechi said:

Hi. I'm wondering if many of you guys have tried running with a GPS, and

Beats running with scissors.

--
inquisitor.i.aminquisitor.i.amOpen ↗ | "][email hidden] | Ian Stirling.
---------------------------+-------------------------+-------------------------- He had been eight
years upon a project for extracting sunbeams out of cucumbers, which were to be put in vials
hermetically sealed, and let out to warm the air in raw inclement summers. -- Jonathan Swift,
"Gulliver's Travels" (1726)

Donovan Rebbechi said:

Hi. I'm wondering if many of you guys have tried running with a GPS, and what your experience has
been. I know this is sort of apples and oranges, but how do they compare with the Timex GPS watches
? The GPS unit I'm interested is the Garmin Gecko 201.

My girlfriend takes my Geko 201 out running with her sometimes (I have no need for running myself,
as I am naturally perfectly fit (*cough* *cough*)) and has had good results. The Geko is small
enough and light enough to either just hold or put in the top pocket of a tracksuit and, as long as
you place it so that the patch antenna is facing outwards and you're not running under dense tree
cover then I'm sure it will be fine.

I often cycle with the Geko accidentally switched on in my back pocket (the openness and method of
operation of the power button makes it very easy to switch on, but not off, accidentally) and it
usually has no trouble recording my route.
--
Chris Cowley

Sample time for my garmin extrex is every one second, so straight line is not important Too much
tree cover sometimes interferes with signal and you may get some loss of actual distance due to the
interruption. This is more of a problem for me while nordic skiing, but less for running on roads.
Have not done a lot of trail running since I got it, but that will probably be like skiing. Overall,
it is VERY VERY accurate if you use it correctly and keep a signal.

JK

"Joseph Meehan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

It works, but may not be as convenient and it may not sample often enough to stay accurate if
your path is not straight.

--
Joseph E. Meehan

26 + 6 = 1 It's Irish Math

"Donovan Rebbechi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hi. I'm wondering if many of you guys have tried running with a GPS, and what your experience
has been. I know this is sort of apples and

oranges,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

but how do they compare with the Timex GPS watches ? The GPS unit I'm interested is the Garmin
Gecko 201.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi pegasus.rutgers.edu~elflordOpen ↗

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (grisoft.comgrisoft.comOpen ↗).
Version: 6.0.476 / Virus Database: 273 - Release Date: 4/24/03

Quoted message said:

3) One of our preferred 8 mile courses turned out to be 7.96 miles. Damn! Should we go back and
update our log books? Can we write it off to interpolation? Should we run a few laps of the
parking lot to make up for lost distance?

Check the trip once more while walking with the GPS in good receiption position. Make sure the
tracklog interval is set to the shortest distance/period possble. Maybe it will be 8 miles then ...

- Carsten
--
Audio Visual Systems fon: +49 (0)2238 967926 Carsten Kurz fax: +49 (0)2238 967925 Fasanenweg 38a
email: [email hidden] 50259 Pulheim / Germany WGS84:N50°58'44.7" E06°47'03.5"

I ran and biked with a Garmin for about 30 days and it worked well. The problem I had with it was I
always knew where I was without it.... so it really was more of a pain than a fun toy. I would
suggest before you put out the cash that you really want one. -jmho

I've brought my Vista on virtually every running trip since i bought the receiver, which was in
September 2001. Some observations from these trips:

* It's important to allow the antenna to face upwards as much as possible, or reception
will be lousy.

* Parts of the trail, where the unit lost reception, will be accumulated in the trip distance as
straight lines. They will not be omitted completely.

* If you make a reasonable route of your planned running course, you get a rather good estimate of
the time left along the track, before you finish.

* Occasional errors in the positioning, caused by bad reception, are most easily fixed by uploading
the track to MapSource (or whatever), and editing the track there.

* It makes a lot (a lot!) of difference if you are out on a day with favorable satellite
configuration, compared to a bad day.

* Let the unit lock on to many sats before you start running. If it can't do it at stillstand, it
will most certainly not succeed when you are running, holding it in your hand.

* The max speed value will usually not be correct, due to occasional misreads and the movement of
your arm when you run.

* The elevation measurement can be affected by strong headwinds creating a local high-pressure area
around your hand.

* Turn off "lock on road" if you aren't actually following roads mapped on MetroGuide maps loaded
into the unit. If you follow roads part of the time, the unit may very well sense that the speed
is high enough to let the lock on road feature kick in. Then it will be reluctant to let you off
the roads again, which may lead to errors in the tracking.

* Tracking mode set to Auto - Normal usually gives a track log that depicts the actual track
good enough.

Anders

In article said:

Donovan Rebbechi said:

Hi. I'm wondering if many of you guys have tried running with a GPS, and what your experience has
been. I know this is sort of apples and oranges, but how do they compare with the Timex GPS
watches ? The GPS unit I'm interested is the Garmin Gecko 201.

all these fancy nancy gadgets won't make you faster..

Yeah, but it can keep an idiot like me amused for hours (-;

Quoted message said:

go out and run, get a real job, and stop trying to sell this [censored] in the newsgroups

Not selling anything. Sorry.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi pegasus.rutgers.edu~elflordOpen ↗

Quoted message said:

all these fancy nancy gadgets won't make you faster..

This is true, but at least it is safer than running with scissors.

I have the casio gps watch and it's doesn't make me faster. It is nice to see though my current
speed in mph and how long till my next waypoint running at the speed I'm going. Its also mighty cool
to see how fast I'm going while rollerblading as well.

JTP "Donovan Rebbechi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

jerrym8704854805Q said:

Quoted message said:

Donovan Rebbechi said:

Hi. I'm wondering if many of you guys have tried running with a GPS, and what your experience
has been. I know this is sort of apples and oranges, but how do they compare with the Timex GPS
watches ? The GPS unit I'm interested is the Garmin Gecko 201.

all these fancy nancy gadgets won't make you faster..

Yeah, but it can keep an idiot like me amused for hours (-;

Quoted message said:

go out and run, get a real job, and stop trying to sell this [censored] in the newsgroups

Not selling anything. Sorry.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi pegasus.rutgers.edu~elflordOpen ↗

In article said:

Quoted message said:

3) One of our preferred 8 mile courses turned out to be 7.96 miles. Damn! Should we go back and
update our log books? Can we write it off to interpolation? Should we run a few laps of the
parking lot to make up for lost distance?

Check the trip once more while walking with the GPS in good receiption position. Make sure the
tracklog interval is set to the shortest distance/period possble. Maybe it will be 8 miles then ...

Getting anywhere near 0.5% accuracy when measuring a course is not at all straightforward. I'd be
quite impressed by someone managing better than +/-1% without a fair amount of careful and
time-consuming effort.

To give a feel for this, if you set a precisely measured course in a completely straight line, it
would only take a runner veering one foot each side of it every (to a rough approximation) 80 ft
along the course to generate the same kind of error as 7.96 against 8.0 miles.

And when you add a few curves into your course all bets are off.

-patrick.

Quoted message said:

I have the casio gps watch and it's doesn't make me faster. It is nice to see though my current
speed in mph and how long till my next waypoint running at the speed I'm going. Its also mighty
cool to see how fast I'm going while rollerblading as well.

When you become more ambitioned in running, it is important to keep a certain pace for longer
parts of the run, or to distribute your energy precisely over the distance. A GPS tracklog can be
perfect in analysing and improving this, since it can display a speed profile on a computer later
on. This can tell you exactly where you made mistakes in your pace distribution. It would be nice
to have a small GPS unit in which you can load a predefined speed profile for a certain distance.
The unit could then beep whenever you are below or above your perfect speed window for a given
part of the track.

Sounds like a good product idea for professional runners.

- Carsten
--
Audio Visual Systems fon: +49 (0)2238 967926 Carsten Kurz fax: +49 (0)2238 967925 Fasanenweg 38a
email: [email hidden] 50259 Pulheim / Germany WGS84:N50°58'44.7" E06°47'03.5"

In article said:

In article said:

Quoted message said:

3) One of our preferred 8 mile courses turned out to be 7.96 miles. Damn! Should we go back and
update our log books? Can we write it off to interpolation? Should we run a few laps of the
parking lot to make up for lost distance?

Check the trip once more while walking with the GPS in good receiption position. Make sure the
tracklog interval is set to the shortest distance/period possble. Maybe it will be 8 miles
then ...

Getting anywhere near 0.5% accuracy when measuring a course is not at all straightforward. I'd be
quite impressed by someone managing better than +/-1% without a fair amount of careful and
time-consuming effort.

To give a feel for this, if you set a precisely measured course in a completely straight line, it
would only take a runner veering one foot each side of it every (to a rough approximation) 80 ft
along the course to generate the same kind of error as 7.96 against 8.0 miles.

And when you add a few curves into your course all bets are off.

I don't think underestimates due to interpolation are likely to be that much of a problem in
practice. Anecdotally, people seem to get reasonably good matches with a GPS even on athletics
tracks, *provided they keep the GPS in the right place* (I think it's 30cm from the line).

Overestimates are another matter, and to accurately measure a course, you'd need to apply some
effort to keep on the most direct possible route (this is the standard that is used for road races
-- the runners need to run slightly further than the official distance because of this)

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi pegasus.rutgers.edu~elflordOpen ↗

Carsten Kurz said:

When you become more ambitioned in running, it is important to keep a certain pace for longer
parts of the run,

To me that would be the main reason for using it. But I'm not sure whether the GPS speed indication
is accurate.

As a test, I borrowed a Garmin Etrax and clipped it on my belt (upside down, so if I bend over
forward I can read the display with some effort).

The first thing I noticed was that it loses signal too often, so the distance reading is useless.
Readings at the end of a run vary from 60% to 90% of the true distance. But I would assume that as
long as the signal is present, it measures speed to some degree. To have a convenient readout,
however, I would have to buy the wrist-watch variety. The only problem now is that I'm not sure
whether it will be accurate, since distance is not accurate either.

Has anyone compared GPS speed measurement to other toys (like the ones you attach to the shoe?)
Which one should I buy?

-- Jos