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Saddles and Erectile Disfunction

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Cycling Equipment
Published
5 October 2005
Last activity
13 October 2005
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R. Gerard
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  1. The New York Times had an article on 4 Oct, about bike saddles and
    their connection to erectile disfunction.

    The URL for the article is:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2005/10/04/health/nutrition/04bike.html?ex=1129176
    000&en=95f50e00bd9fedd8&ei=5070&emc=eta1

    One quote from the article:

    Quoted message said:

    Steven Schrader, a reproductive health expert who studies cycling at the
    National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health, said he believed that
    it was no longer a question of "whether or not bicycle riding on a saddle
    causes erectile dysfunction."

    Instead, he said in an interview, "The question is, What are we going to do
    about it?"

    A second quote from the article:

    Quoted message said:

    The link between bicycle saddles and impotence first received public
    attention in 1997 when a Boston urologist, Dr. Irwin Goldstein, who had
    studied the problem, asserted that "there are only two kinds of male cyclists
    - those who are impotent and those who will be impotent.

    The article has a link to a saddle diagram and suggested a so-called
    noseless seat for cyclists who go long distances; cyclists who ride
    shorter distances are not at risk.

    Anyone ever used one of these noseless seats and if so can you describe
    your reaction to it, what kind it was, and where one might find a good
    source of such seats??

    Many thanks,
    bob

  2. R. Gerard said:

    The New York Times had an article on 4 Oct, about bike saddles and
    their connection to erectile disfunction.

    Enough trolling, please! There are at least two other threads on this
    exact same topic currently going strong....

    --
    Dave
    dvt at psu dot edu

  3. In article <[email hidden]>, dvt <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:
    R. Gerard said:

    The New York Times had an article on 4 Oct, about bike saddles and
    their connection to erectile disfunction.

    Enough trolling, please! There are at least two other threads on this
    exact same topic currently going strong....

    Well it just might help folks find them if the Subject had
    _something_ to do with the subject...OMG I TOLD YOU SO is NOT very
    helpful and I never could find the second thread.

    Care to point out which of the 2,464 articles it might be?

    Thanks,
    bob

  4. R. Gerard said:

    Well it just might help folks find them if the Subject had
    _something_ to do with the subject...OMG I TOLD YOU SO is NOT very
    helpful and I never could find the second thread.

    Care to point out which of the 2,464 articles it might be?

    Took about 30 seconds to find it via Google Groups...

    "Saddles and sex organs in the news"

    http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/browse_frm/thread/60fd170515315478/26ffb457ca315ce9?tvc=1&q=group:rec.bicycles.tech+new+york+times&hl=en#26ffb457ca315ce9
    http://tinyurl.com/8p9co

    --
    Dave

  5. Thank you, Dave. Much appreciated.

    I _still_ say folks who start a thread ought to put some hint in the
    Subject line regarding what their posting is all about.

    Reminds me of some of the postings I see on tech support lists: Need
    Help...and then in the post they provide zero information about their
    computer, the operating system they are running, the version of the
    application with which they are having trouble, etc.

    Sheesh!

    Ciao,
    bob

    In article <[email hidden]>, dvt <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:
    R. Gerard said:

    Well it just might help folks find them if the Subject had
    _something_ to do with the subject...OMG I TOLD YOU SO is NOT very
    helpful and I never could find the second thread.

    Care to point out which of the 2,464 articles it might be?

    Took about 30 seconds to find it via Google Groups...

    "Saddles and sex organs in the news"

    http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/browse_frm/thread/60fd1705153
    15478/26ffb457ca315ce9?tvc=1&q=group:rec.bicycles.tech+new+york+times&hl=en#26
    ffb457ca315ce9
    http://tinyurl.com/8p9co

  6. Per R. Gerard:

    Quoted message said:

    Anyone ever used one of these noseless seats and if so can you describe
    your reaction to it, what kind it was, and where one might find a good
    source of such seats??

    Yes.

    Overwhelmingly negative.

    Dumpsters and trash cans might be good places to look.

    OTOH, send me twenty bucks and I'll send you one of mine....
    --
    PeteCresswell

  7. R. Gerard said:
    Quoted message said:

    The link between bicycle saddles and impotence first received public
    attention in 1997 when a Boston urologist, Dr. Irwin Goldstein, who had
    studied the problem, asserted that "there are only two kinds of male cyclists
    - those who are impotent and those who will be impotent.

    There are lots of us who have a bit of experience to contradict this. Me,
    I've only been riding 35 years, so maybe that's not enough for a
    scientific test. I'm only 54 now, so maybe that wouldn't count, but up to
    now I've never had a problem. And, to answer the unasked question,
    yesterday morning.

    --

    David L. Johnson

    __o | If all economists were laid end to end, they would not reach a
    _`\(,_ | conclusion. -- George Bernard Shaw
    (_)/ (_) |

  8. Dr. Goldstein's statement is excessive and inflammatory.

    However, the following one, appearing later in the article, is not. Your
    personal experience does not contradict the results of the studies. Just as
    some (many?) smokers not developing lung cancer does not contradict the
    fact that smoking causes lung cancer.

    Roy

    ----------- from the NYTimes article ------------

    Just as many smokers do not get lung cancer, many cyclists will never
    develop impotence from bicycle seats, the scientists said. What makes
    one person more vulnerable than another is not known. Body weight seems
    to matter: heavier riders exert more pressure on saddles. Variations in
    anatomy may also make a difference.

    ------------------------------------------------

    "David L. Johnson" <[email hidden]> wrote in
    news:[email hidden]:

    Quoted message said:
    R. Gerard said:
    Quoted message said:

    The link between bicycle saddles and impotence first received public
    attention in 1997 when a Boston urologist, Dr. Irwin Goldstein, who
    had studied the problem, asserted that "there are only two kinds of
    male cyclists - those who are impotent and those who will be
    impotent.

    There are lots of us who have a bit of experience to contradict this.
    Me, I've only been riding 35 years, so maybe that's not enough for a
    scientific test. I'm only 54 now, so maybe that wouldn't count, but
    up to now I've never had a problem. And, to answer the unasked
    question, yesterday morning.

  9. David L. Johnson said:


    R. Gerard said:
    Quoted message said:


    The link between bicycle saddles and impotence first received public
    attention in 1997 when a Boston urologist, Dr. Irwin Goldstein, who had
    studied the problem, asserted that "there are only two kinds of male cyclists
    - those who are impotent and those who will be impotent.

    There are lots of us who have a bit of experience to contradict this. Me,
    I've only been riding 35 years, so maybe that's not enough for a
    scientific test. I'm only 54 now, so maybe that wouldn't count, but up to
    now I've never had a problem. And, to answer the unasked question,
    yesterday morning.

    It seems pretty obvious to me that the "medical experts" who chime in
    every so often with concerns of this nature are

    1) not cyclists, and

    2) not in communication with the overwhelming majority of cyclists who
    have no such problems.

    If, say, an orthopedic surgeon who never participated in field sports
    nor ever talked to someone who did (outside of those who were injured
    enough to require his services) decided to go public with
    ill-considered [censored] about how "there are only two kinds of athletes--
    those who have mangled knees and those who will have mangled knees",
    then he'd rightly be written off as an ignoramus.

    I think that cycling-related ED is limited strictly to those who don't
    know (or who refuse to believe) that cycling shouldn't hurt, and who
    persist with a bad bike setup because of this.

    Chalo Colina

  10. Roy Gordon said:

    Dr. Goldstein's statement is excessive and inflammatory.

    However, the following one, appearing later in the article, is not. Your
    personal experience does not contradict the results of the studies. Just as
    some (many?) smokers not developing lung cancer does not contradict the
    fact that smoking causes lung cancer.

    The relationship between smoking and cancer (and heart disease) is
    substantial and causal. The "correlation" between riding and impotence is
    anecdotal, based only on studies of those who came under treatment (can
    you say control?), and biased by the fact that these doctors represent
    particular saddles as a cure.

    --

    David L. Johnson

    __o | "What am I on? I'm on my bike, six hours a day, busting my ass.
    _`\(,_ | What are you on?" --Lance Armstrong
    (_)/ (_) |

  11. David, this is a very different reponse, though, than your previous one.

    There was the guest editorial and three peer-reviewed articles. Each costs
    $26. http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/toc/jsm/2/5

    Have you read them? I haven't. But the abstracts are free for the viewing.

    The meta-study is the most interesting to me. It surveys the English
    language medical literature from 1981-2004, finding 21 published articles
    and abstracts between 1999 and 2004, 35 total.

    Were all the people who wrote all these articles biased by selling saddles?
    Did they all concern themselves with only those under treatment? If so,
    this seems inconsistent with the findings of the approx 4% incidence rate
    attributed to cyclists.

    I'm not saying you're not right. Medical studies are of notoriously poor
    quality. Researchers have plenty of biases even if they're not selling
    anything.

    But it seems to me that more specifics are needed from you given the
    abstract. I'm definitely interested if you have them.

    Roy

    ---------------- abstract of the meta-study ---------------

    Introduction. From 1999 to 2004, there had been 21 publications from
    multiple medical specialties (sexual medicine, urology, neurology,
    cardiology, biomedical engineering, sports medicine, emergency medicine,
    and officials from the National Institute for Safety and Occupational
    Health) investigating the relationship between bicycle riding and erectile
    dysfunction (ED). In the previous 18 years, there have been 14 such
    studies.

    Aim. The primary aim was to summarize accumulating data on the safety of
    bicycle riding based on medical evidence categorized by levels of evidence,
    including case reports, observational studies, case control studies,
    mechanistic studies, and population-based epidemiologic investigations. The
    secondary aim was to address the concerns of bicyclists and propose
    measures to minimize the risk of ED associated with bicycle riding.

    Methods. An English-language medical literature review was made of
    publications in peer review journals from 1981 to 2004, including published
    abstract presentations at major medical meetings.

    Main Outcome Measure. Ranked published epidemiologic data on bicycle riding
    and ED.

    Results. Bicycle riding more than 3 hours per week was an independent
    relative risk (RR = 1.72) for moderate to severe ED. In case control
    studies, the prevalence of moderate to severe ED in bicyclists was 4.2% and
    4% vs. age-matched runners 1.1% (P <= 0.018) and swimmers 2% (P = 0.05),
    respectively. Therefore, bicycle riders should take precautionary measures
    to minimize the risk of ED associated with bicycle riding: change the
    bicycle saddle with a protruding nose to a noseless seat, change the
    posture to a more upright/reclining position, change the material of the
    saddle (GEL), and tilt the saddle/seat downwards.

    Conclusions. The mechanism is hypothetically related to the rider
    interaction with the bicycle saddle at the perineum-saddle interface.
    Straddling bicycle saddles with a nose extension is associated with
    suprasystolic perineal compression pressures, temporarily occluding penile
    perfusion and potentially inducing endothelial injury and vasculogenic ED.

    Huang V, Munarriz R, and Goldstein I. Bicycle riding and erectile
    dysfunction: An increase in interest (and concern). J Sex Med 2005;2:596-
    604.

    "David L. Johnson" <[email hidden]> wrote in
    news:[email hidden]:

    Quoted message said:
    Roy Gordon said:

    Dr. Goldstein's statement is excessive and inflammatory.

    However, the following one, appearing later in the article, is not.
    Your personal experience does not contradict the results of the
    studies. Just as some (many?) smokers not developing lung cancer does
    not contradict the fact that smoking causes lung cancer.

    The relationship between smoking and cancer (and heart disease) is
    substantial and causal. The "correlation" between riding and
    impotence is anecdotal, based only on studies of those who came under
    treatment (can you say control?), and biased by the fact that these
    doctors represent particular saddles as a cure.

  12. David L. Johnson said:

    There are lots of us who have a bit of experience to contradict this. Me,
    I've only been riding 35 years, so maybe that's not enough for a
    scientific test. I'm only 54 now, so maybe that wouldn't count, but up to
    now I've never had a problem. And, to answer the unasked question,
    yesterday morning.

    Over 95% never have problems, making you hardly atypical.

    dewatf.

  13. David L. Johnson said:

    And, to answer the unasked question,
    yesterday morning.

    The unfortuate part is that you were alone at the time...

    E.P. "rimshot.wav"

  14. Roy Gordon said:

    David, this is a very different reponse, though, than your previous one.

    There was the guest editorial and three peer-reviewed articles. Each costs
    $26. http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/toc/jsm/2/5

    Have you read them? I haven't. But the abstracts are free for the viewing.

    No, I haven't.

    Quoted message said:


    The meta-study is the most interesting to me. It surveys the English
    language medical literature from 1981-2004, finding 21 published articles
    and abstracts between 1999 and 2004, 35 total.

    Be careful in particular of meta-studies. At the least they do not
    consider the biases or poor technique of the original studies. At worst,
    they promulgate hype and marketing that drove those original studies.

    Quoted message said:

    Were all the people who wrote all these articles biased by selling
    saddles?

    How many authors were involved?

    Rather than suggest that these inflamatory studies have to be believed
    unless I have contrary evidence (as you seem to suggest), I would say that
    such extraordinary claims require extraordinary proofs. And this abstract
    (and others I have read) do not provide such proofs contrary to the
    experience I have had, along with all the other cyclists I know.

    Quoted message said:

    erectile dysfunction (ED). In the previous 18 years, there have been 14
    such studies.

    A large percentage by Goldstein.

    Quoted message said:


    Aim. The primary aim was to summarize accumulating data on the safety of
    bicycle riding based on medical evidence categorized by levels of
    evidence, including case reports, observational studies, case control
    studies, mechanistic studies, and population-based epidemiologic
    investigations.

    One wonders what a "mechanistic study" might be. Case reports,
    observational studies, and case control studies all deal with people who
    report problems. Of those I have seen, none suggest that poor fit or
    unusual trauma might be the cause, rather than cycling itself.
    Certainly some cyclists experience unusual trauma; but then several
    cyclists also break their collar bones, without a study linking collar
    bone failure to cycling. We've all seen people riding bikes that
    obviously did not fit, or were set up with no understanding of what
    promoted comfortable cycling. These, I suggest, constitute the bulk of
    the cases studied. Only the population-based epidemiological studies have
    some chance of validity, but even the one of those I read dealt with bike
    cops, some of whom had little riding experience prior to their police
    patrols, and may be riding a poorly-fitting bike.

    Quoted message said:

     The secondary aim was to address the concerns of
    bicyclists and propose measures to minimize the risk of ED associated
    with bicycle riding.

    Such as sell them a fancy saddle.

    Quoted message said:

    Main Outcome Measure. Ranked published epidemiologic data on bicycle
    riding and ED.

    Results. Bicycle riding more than 3 hours per week was an independent
    relative risk (RR = 1.72) for moderate to severe ED. In case control
    studies, the prevalence of moderate to severe ED in bicyclists was 4.2%
    and 4% vs. age-matched runners 1.1% (P <= 0.018) and swimmers 2% (P =
    0.05), respectively. Therefore, bicycle riders should take precautionary
    measures to minimize the risk of ED associated with bicycle riding:
    change the bicycle saddle with a protruding nose to a noseless seat,
    change the posture to a more upright/reclining position, change the
    material of the saddle (GEL), and tilt the saddle/seat downwards.

    Look at these conclusions. Noseless saddles? Upright or reclining
    position? Gel? Tilt the saddle downwards? These are all tendencies of
    people who do not know what they are doing, and you know it.

    An upright position exacerbates saddle problems since it puts more weight
    on the butt. Gel squishes into places it should not go, tilting the
    saddle downwards forces you to press backwards with your hands. And
    noseless saddles????

    --

    David L. Johnson

    __o | And what if you track down these men and kill them, what if you
    _`\(,_ | killed all of us? From every corner of Europe, hundreds,
    (_)/ (_) | thousands would rise up to take our places. Even Nazis can't
    kill that fast. -- Paul Henreid (Casablanca).

  15. David L. Johnson said:

    An upright position exacerbates saddle problems since it puts more weight
    on the butt.

    It exacerbates saddle pain, it does *not* exacerbate genital numbness.
    Catching all under "saddle problems" is disingenuous at best.

    Jasper

  16. The abstract claimed approximately 4% which is one in twenty-five.

    David, perhaps you travel in different circles than I, but in nearly 30
    years of cycling I've can't recall a single cycling conversation along the
    lines of "I met this hot babe last night but I couldn't get it on." Or, "my
    wife and I are in sex therapy because I've been having performance
    problems."

    You know, it just doesn't seem like something that's so openly discussed.
    To say the least! But maybe I'm just not that sufficiently touchy-feely, so
    to speak.

    Roy

    Quoted message said:

    And this
    abstract (and others I have read) do not provide such proofs contrary
    to the experience I have had, along with all the other cyclists I
    know.

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