Save the William Street cycle lanes

Refer to existing thread here, Sydney cycleway scrapped:
http://www.cyclingforums.com/t344494.html

********************
From MassBUG June News + SMH diagram of the William St 'about turn'
http://www.massbug.org.au/cgi-bin/twiki/bin/view/MASSBUG/News
CBD BIKES ACTION - HANDS OFF BICYCLE LANES!

The Cross City Tunnel was supposed to ease traffic congestion in the CBD. Now it threatens bicycle lanes across the CBD and East Sydney. It's a disgrace! Join the Greens and the bicycle community to protest the current attack on bicycle lanes in the CBD. 1:00pm Thursday 15th June 2006 Martin Place (between Elizabeth & Philip Sts) SYDNEY CBD In an attempt to salvage the failed Cross City Tunnel project the Government has foreshadowed the closure of bicycle lanes on William Street. This places under threat other bicycle links that were planned across the city, including a bicycle lane on Kent Street that linked William St with Pyrmont Bridge.

By seeking to vary the conditions of consent for the Cross City Tunnel which will result in lost bicycle lanes, the RTA is breaching the Government's own policy to build bicycle infrastructure into all motorway projects. The RTA's continued overriding of planning decisions also places uncertainty on other routes leading to and from the city, such as the bicycle lanes planned for Epping Road as part of the Lane Cove Tunnel project.

Join the protest to say HANDS OFF BICYCLE LANES!

Bring your bikes. Bring your friends. Contact: Greens MP Lee Rhiannon's office - 9230 3551; [email hidden] ; http://www.leerhiannon.org.au

I reckon the bigger job is to get a Bicycle Plan for Sydney back on the
RTAs todo list. Costa stopped the funding last year and all the RTA does
now is fund local council bike works at about $6 million dollars worth this
year ( $1 per head of population). see the RTA website for a list of the
dinky projects, mostly off road shared paths.

So turn up and protest about that as well as the William St lanes. The
Herald article (print copy, in the map) only said the lanes would be
scrapped east of Palmer, so maybe the lanes up to and along Park St will
stay. The RTA built a whole new overbridge at White Bay when they had to
take out the bike path off the Anzac Bridge last year, so maybe they will
have the decency to provide some sort of alternative for the bike lanes east
of Palmer St. Footpath seems wide enough.

fb

"cfsmtb" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Refer to existing thread here, Sydney cycleway scrapped:
http://www.cyclingforums.com/t344494.html

********************
From MassBUG June News + SMH diagram of the William St 'about turn'
http://www.massbug.org.au/cgi-bin/twiki/bin/view/MASSBUG/News
CBD BIKES ACTION - HANDS OFF BICYCLE LANES!

The Cross City Tunnel was supposed to ease traffic congestion in the
CBD. Now it threatens bicycle lanes across the CBD and East Sydney.
It's a disgrace! Join the Greens and the bicycle community to protest
the current attack on bicycle lanes in the CBD. 1:00pm Thursday 15th
June 2006 Martin Place (between Elizabeth & Philip Sts) SYDNEY CBD In
an attempt to salvage the failed Cross City Tunnel project the
Government has foreshadowed the closure of bicycle lanes on William
Street. This places under threat other bicycle links that were planned
across the city, including a bicycle lane on Kent Street that linked
William St with Pyrmont Bridge.

By seeking to vary the conditions of consent for the Cross City Tunnel
which will result in lost bicycle lanes, the RTA is breaching the
Government's own policy to build bicycle infrastructure into all
motorway projects. The RTA's continued overriding of planning decisions
also places uncertainty on other routes leading to and from the city,
such as the bicycle lanes planned for Epping Road as part of the Lane
Cove Tunnel project.

Join the protest to say HANDS OFF BICYCLE LANES!

Bring your bikes. Bring your friends. Contact: Greens MP Lee Rhiannon's
office - 9230 3551; [email hidden] ;
http://www.leerhiannon.org.au

--
cfsmtb

Everyone in this newsgroup should be writing to the newspaper and
suggest that people should stop complaining about the cost of petrol.
When is the NSW government going introduce a congestion tax like
in London?

The Doctor said:

Everyone in this newsgroup should be writing to the newspaper and suggest that people should stop complaining about the cost of petrol. When is the NSW government going introduce a congestion tax like in London?

That is an interesting point, but the problem lies elsewhere. Since the post-war period, numerous cities have been planned around vehicles being the dominant form of transport. That in turn, has led to a short-sighted dependence upon petrol, and invaribly, to a lack of transport/logistic options and more sustainably focused planning infrastructure. Now we're facing a crunch time where any adjustment to our transport modes is going to reasonably painful and unreasonably complex. I've mentioned this before, and I'll repeat it again, the rise in petrol prices is not a reason to celebrate. It hurts people who had no choice, other than the car, presented to them. Anyway, thousands of words have been written about what I've attempted to describe in the last few sentences ..

cfsmtb said:

The Doctor said:

Everyone in this newsgroup should be writing to the newspaper and
suggest that people should stop complaining about the cost of petrol.
When is the NSW government going introduce a congestion tax like in
London?

That is an interesting point, but the problem lies elsewhere. Since the
post-war period, numerous cities have been planned around vehicles being
the dominant form of transport. That in turn, has led to a short-sighted
dependence upon petrol, and invaribly, to a lack of transport/logistic
options and more sustainably focused planning infrastructure. Now we're
facing a crunch time where any adjustment to our transport modes is
going to reasonably painful and unreasonably complex. I've mentioned
this before, and I'll repeat it again, the rise in petrol prices is not
a reason to celebrate. It hurts people who had no choice, other than the
car, presented to them. Anyway, thousands of words have been written
about what I've attempted to describe in the last few sentences ..

I have to agree with cfsmtb, this isn't a problem with the population
at large right at the moment. This is a problem with their parents in
the 50s who viewed affluence and status as equating to cars. This is a
problem with the Liberal Party and the ALP in the 40s and 50s who
viewed the world as a bounty for Western societies to pluck. This is a
problem with architects, engineers and urban planners of the past who
viewed cities as infinitely expandable. This is a problem with the
employers and governments of the past who viewed industrial, clerical
and job-site placement as a matter for economic benefit, not community
building.

Yes there are problems with the public at large: their road culture
stinks. Yes there is a problem with the car-culture. Yes there is a
problem with petrol dependence. And those of us who have voluntarily
reduced our dependence have some desire to gloat: to explain our
choices to the public. But to rub their noses in a dependency, an
addiction, that their parents, grandparents, and all their role models
in society have supported them in taking up isn't going to create
social or political change.

The mass of people in our society are petrol addicted. Our supply
chains are petrol addicted. Our tradespeople, our services are petrol
addicted. Our primary and mineral production are petrol addicted. It
*is* a systemic problem. And for bicyclists with a concern about road
culture and economic culture outside of safe road cycling, they do need
to have a concern about how long-haul road has replaced train, how
employment is cited far distant from residence, how entertainment is
centralised rather than dispersed.

For goodness sakes: gloat in private about petrol prices and argue in
public about systemic transport change.

yours for a different social arrangement,
Sam R.

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

cfsmtb said:

The Doctor said:

Everyone in this newsgroup should be writing to the newspaper and
suggest that people should stop complaining about the cost of petrol.
When is the NSW government going introduce a congestion tax like in
London?

That is an interesting point, but the problem lies elsewhere. Since the
post-war period, numerous cities have been planned around vehicles being
the dominant form of transport. That in turn, has led to a short-sighted
dependence upon petrol, and invaribly, to a lack of transport/logistic
options and more sustainably focused planning infrastructure. Now we're
facing a crunch time where any adjustment to our transport modes is
going to reasonably painful and unreasonably complex. I've mentioned
this before, and I'll repeat it again, the rise in petrol prices is not
a reason to celebrate. It hurts people who had no choice, other than the
car, presented to them. Anyway, thousands of words have been written
about what I've attempted to describe in the last few sentences ..

I have to agree with cfsmtb, this isn't a problem with the population
at large right at the moment. This is a problem with their parents in
the 50s who viewed affluence and status as equating to cars. This is a
problem with the Liberal Party and the ALP in the 40s and 50s who
viewed the world as a bounty for Western societies to pluck. This is a
problem with architects, engineers and urban planners of the past who
viewed cities as infinitely expandable. This is a problem with the
employers and governments of the past who viewed industrial, clerical
and job-site placement as a matter for economic benefit, not community
building.

Yes there are problems with the public at large: their road culture
stinks. Yes there is a problem with the car-culture. Yes there is a
problem with petrol dependence. And those of us who have voluntarily
reduced our dependence have some desire to gloat: to explain our
choices to the public. But to rub their noses in a dependency, an
addiction, that their parents, grandparents, and all their role models
in society have supported them in taking up isn't going to create
social or political change.

The mass of people in our society are petrol addicted. Our supply
chains are petrol addicted. Our tradespeople, our services are petrol
addicted. Our primary and mineral production are petrol addicted. It
*is* a systemic problem. And for bicyclists with a concern about road
culture and economic culture outside of safe road cycling, they do need
to have a concern about how long-haul road has replaced train, how
employment is cited far distant from residence, how entertainment is
centralised rather than dispersed.

For goodness sakes: gloat in private about petrol prices and argue in
public about systemic transport change.

yours for a different social arrangement,
Sam R.

Ummmm...I'd bring out the horses but they haven't finished eating yet!!

DJ

samuel.russell wrote

Quoted message said:

For goodness sakes: gloat in private about petrol prices and argue in
public about systemic transport change.

A couple of things are IMHO going to converge in Sydney in the near future
which will make for interesting town planning.

The car from China costing $6000 new and $2500 second hand is going to be
with us soon in large numbers (don't worry about the quality, its wheels
right?) and they will boost car numbers much more than sticker shock at the
petrol pump will reduce their numbers.

The freeway work (esp the Lane Cove tunnel and the connecting of the ring
roads) will greatly assist in getting the greatest numbers of cars possible
to the greatest possble congestion points, without the ability for traffic
to easily divert to older existing roads.

The rail passenger system will (during peak hours) have reached or exceeded
its acceptable capacity meaning rail will not be much of an effective
alternative to move passenger numbers.

Trams (light rail) will not be a viable alternative in Syd until you resumed
dedicated corridors for them and that would require more courage and
resources than most State goverments will ever have.

The result - think Bangkok in a bad peak hour and doubling commute times.

I can see that happening - but regrettably I cannot see the push bike being
of significant assitance in resolving the problem.

I suspect they just might re-look at population density levels in some inner
ring subusrbs very much harder than they have done in the past.

And watch scooters get really really fashionable. best, Andrew

In aus.bicycle on Mon, 12 Jun 2006 09:19:28 +1000

Andrew Price said:

And watch scooters get really really fashionable. best, Andrew

They are already. 4 times the number there were this time 2 years
ago.

I don't know where these scooters are being ridden though. I
definitely see more of them in the city and North Sydney, but are they
inner city (say within a 20km radius from the GPO) dwellers forgoing
public transport, or are they outer area people forgoing cars?

I'm inner ring myself, so I wouldn't know if there are more of them on
the M4 or M5.

TO relieve the congestion there needs to be a lot more powered two
wheelers in the outer suburbs. Replace 1/3 of the single-person cars
with a two wheeler, and it might make a hell of a difference.

It's not going to be possible to replace car journeys with bicycle
journeys for much of Sydney's outer suburb population, although it
might be possible to replace some of the trips to train stations. I
learned the other day that some people in my company arrive at their
train station at 6am so they can be sure to get parking! I dunno how
far from it they live, but if it were cycling distance and there were
decent cycling facilities such as bike lockers....

Sydney's a hilly, spread out, sort of place. Isn't at all clear to me
that its possible to have more journeys made by bicycle anywhere but
the inner ring, and even there it's only some corridors that will be
tempting to most people.

Zebee

Andrew Price said:

samuel.russell wrote

Quoted message said:

For goodness sakes: gloat in private about petrol prices and argue in
public about systemic transport change.

A couple of things are IMHO going to converge in Sydney in the near future
which will make for interesting town planning.

The car from China costing $6000 new and $2500 second hand is going to be
with us soon in large numbers (don't worry about the quality, its wheels
right?) and they will boost car numbers much more than sticker shock at the
petrol pump will reduce their numbers.

<snip>

Is that an actual car or a projection? I have difficulty believing that anyone can really make a new car which will retail at $6k anymore. Australian ADRs mean that you can only cut corners so far.

Resound said:

Is that an actual car or a projection? I have difficulty believing that anyone can really make a new car which will retail at $6k anymore. Australian ADRs mean that you can only cut corners so far.

The market will always find it's lowest denominator, ie: K*a. Types in the word bicycle to the last sentence to make the comment vaguely on topic.

"Zebee Johnstone" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

It's not going to be possible to replace car journeys with bicycle
journeys for much of Sydney's outer suburb population,

Quoted message said:

Depends where they work, not all westies work in the city. Probably still a
majority who work fairly locally, and maybe the creation of more jobs in the
growth centres like Parramatta, Baulkham Hills, Hurstville and Liverpool
etc will help, if that ever happens. Then there are all the kids going to
school locally.

Quoted message said:

although it
might be possible to replace some of the trips to train stations. I
learned the other day that some people in my company arrive at their
train station at 6am so they can be sure to get parking! I dunno how
far from it they live, but if it were cycling distance and there were
decent cycling facilities such as bike lockers....

Must be big scope for that sort of thing, but people's habits are so hard
to change. Also the trains dont go to many work places, being mostly
designed for travel to the City. So nice and warm in the car too, and the
radio is on...Its gonna take some huge effort to get them on a bike. Paying
for a car park at the station might help.

Quoted message said:

Sydney's a hilly, spread out, sort of place. Isn't at all clear to me
that its possible to have more journeys made by bicycle anywhere but
the inner ring, and even there it's only some corridors that will be
tempting to most people.

Well if there is some lucky convergence between planning and the forces
like petrol prices and congestion we might see people living closer to
work, and then cycling will be a more likely choice. I read that the new
centres out around the Hills area have cycleways connecting housing to
business and factory areas - no need to drive to work. Opposing forces are
the trend away from permanent jobs to contract jobs etc where you have to
be prepared to change jobs and possibly work locations frequently.

fb

In aus.bicycle on Mon, 12 Jun 2006 08:26:18 GMT

Fractal said:

"Zebee Johnstone" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

It's not going to be possible to replace car journeys with bicycle
journeys for much of Sydney's outer suburb population,

Quoted message said:

Depends where they work, not all westies work in the city. Probably still a
majority who work fairly locally, and maybe the creation of more jobs in the
growth centres like Parramatta, Baulkham Hills, Hurstville and Liverpool
etc will help, if that ever happens. Then there are all the kids going to
school locally.

I still think "for most". Because the dormitory suburbs are so spread
out. A fair old jaunt for many people even if they do work in say
Parramatta. SOmeone who, for example, has bought a house in Mt Druitt
is going to have a bit of trouble cycling to say Baulkham Hills. Or
worse, who lives in Emu Plains and works in Liverpool....

Previously you could buy a house in the cheapish areas and work
wherever and change jobs without having to change house. Dunno how
limited people can realistically be.

Quoted message said:

Must be big scope for that sort of thing, but people's habits are so hard
to change. Also the trains dont go to many work places, being mostly
designed for travel to the City. So nice and warm in the car too, and the
radio is on...Its gonna take some huge effort to get them on a bike. Paying
for a car park at the station might help.

IN the end, whatever people use has to be more attractive than what
they are using now.

There has to be some tipping point, some combination of price, time,
convenience. But what is it?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Sydney's a hilly, spread out, sort of place. Isn't at all clear to me
that its possible to have more journeys made by bicycle anywhere but
the inner ring, and even there it's only some corridors that will be
tempting to most people.

Well if there is some lucky convergence between planning and the forces
like petrol prices and congestion we might see people living closer to
work, and then cycling will be a more likely choice. I read that the new

I thnk it will take more than that. You can rent in St Mary's for
half the price and more room than you can rent for in Campsie (where I
live). You can buy better housing for less money in the outer suburbs
than you have a chance to buy closer in.

To move requires you to up your family from their jobs and their
schools. And fund a smaller, more expensive place. How much
transport differential will make up for that?

And is there enough room closer to the places people work?

Quoted message said:

centres out around the Hills area have cycleways connecting housing to
business and factory areas - no need to drive to work. Opposing forces are
the trend away from permanent jobs to contract jobs etc where you have to
be prepared to change jobs and possibly work locations frequently.

If you change work locations, then the car is much more attractive....

I think the work mobility is the killer. In today's "flexible
workforce" world, there's no guarantee at all that you will be working
in the same place next year. So if you want to buy a house you buy
the one you like and can afford and work where you can get work.
Which might be close, or might be 2 hours away. That's life, you
can't expect to work nearby because you might not have a job next
week.

Zebee

Info below forwarded on behalf of Sydney cyclists

*******************************

Hi all,

The intended removal of eastbound bikelanes on William St has really given me the [censored], and I suspect most others feel the same. I spoke to people from other BUGs. So Sunday June 25, Bike South West BUG is doing a ride from the electorate of Premier Morris Iemma (he is the Member for Lakemba, his office is in the suburb of Riverwood). The ride meets out the front of his Riverwood office at 9:30am, leaves at 10am sharp, goes to William St, stops at Kings Cross at 12:30pm for a chin wag and such, leaves for the return ride no later than 2:00pm. Pizza back at Riverwood.

Its not a Critical Mass ride, so its run a little different, its going to be run as a BUG ride, so there are sign-on sheets, corking an intersection would be very unusual. Most CMass riders have been on a BUG ride at sometime, you know how most BUG rides run.

It would be great to get as many cyclists as we can outside Iemmas local office in his own electorate and theres really not much time to organise it. We did debate doing it later to be more organised but thought it was better to do as much as we can as soon as we can. This really is about more than just William St. Politicians are gearing up for the election. The Cross City Tunnel has been a high profile ill conceived stuff up. The political cure seems to be shaft cyclists.

If we don't cause a stink over this and make it an issue, other cycle paths, lanes and facilities around Sydney and the whole state are up for getting degraded whenever it is politically expedient.

Riverwood isn't that far to cycle from the city, if you want to ride there are shorter routes than the one we are using. If you want to get the train, times from Central to Riverwood on Sunday are:

Central-Riverwood
8.53am - 9.18am
9.08am - 9.38am
9.23am - 9.48am (this last one is cutting it a bit fine, if you miss it, the next one gets you to Riverwood at 10:08am, we will be gone, meet us at Kings Cross)

This ride is the sunday before the Critical Mass ride at the end of month, so if anyone has some good flyers for CM please make them available to be handed out at sundays ride to promote the CM ride.

This is a good opportunity for cyclists who have never been on, and frankly probably never will take part in a Critical Mass to talk with CMers and realise they aren't the devil on a bicycle, and that in fact, commonly held prejudices could be little off the mark:

*it is NOT true CMers don't use lights at night because their eyes glow and their heads revolve.

*the whirring of bike wheels at a Critical Mass is NOT masked by the sound of marbles jingling in pockets to throw under police horse hoove (marbles are for playing marbles silly).

*the ride does not throw the CBD into chaos on a friday night once a month. Its in chaos every friggin friday night.

*if anything should be considered radical, its not Critical Mass,radical is ripping out bike lanes in a hissy fit when excessive motor vehicle use is strangling Sydney.

Full ride details below.

----------------------------------------------------------

June 25 Sunday - Backpedalling on William St
Distance: 55km (27km one way to Kings Cross)
Grade: some traffic, includes cyclepaths, includes cycleways, moderate pace

Contact: Paul Johnson mobile 0438536458 or pauljohnsonATpacific.net.au
Starts at: assemble 9:30am opposite Premier Morris Iemmas office in his local electorate, 48 Thurlow St, Riverwood (visible from Riverwood railway station entrance). Ride leaves 10:00am sharp! Don't be late!

Description: NSW Premier Morris Iemma is also Member for Lakemba, and on 05/06/06 (World Environment Day!) has announced intentions to remove the just completed eastbound bike lanes on William St to make way for another general lane. Let him know you don't want cycle lanes removed as a result of the Cross City Tunnel fiasco.

Cycle from his local electorate office at Riverwood via the M5East path, Bexley North, Tempe, Mascot, Rosebery, Moore Park to arrive 12:30pm at Kings Cross near the big Coke sign and the intersection of Victoria St and Kings Cross Rd, in front of the "stick and ball" sculptures to see William St and have a talk about the issues. You can look straight down William St from there. It would be great to get as many people as we can outside Iemmas office in Riverwood for the start of the ride, but if you can't make it, meet us at Kings Cross 12:30pm.

I anticipate we are probably going to spend at least an hour talking about the issues, looking at William St, some people might like to do a couple of loops of William St or grab a coffee from the nearby cafes while this is going on, time permitting we can cycle over to Hyde Park so people know exactly where Critical Mass leaves from the following friday. We should start the return ride no later than 2:00pm.

Return ride via similar route. Trains are running on the East Hills Line if you want to get the train back, or meet us at Kings Cross, ride to Riverwood and get the train back to Kings Cross.

There is a good Pizza resturant with inside and outside seating (we have some fantastic wide footpaths here and we didn't even need a tunnel to get them!) at Riverwood, just around the corner from Iemmas office. Sunset is 4:55pm, I'd like to get the ride back to Riverwood by 4:30pm, Monte Carlos opens at 5:00pm, that gives time for people to lock their bikes outside Monte Carlos, scurry across the road to Riverwood Plaza to grab a bottle of wine or poison of choice from the bottle shop underneath and return for pizzas and a debrief on what went well, what didn't, where to take things from here.

Monte Carlo pizzas is in Belmore Rd, Riverwood, across the road from Riverwood Plaza, just south of Riverwood station (you can see the station from it). There is a taxi rank just across the road. So there is no excuse for cycling home over the limit if you really enjoy yourself at the debrief.

Closer to the day, check for current trackwork at:
http://www.cityrail.info/trackwork/trackwork.jsp

Proposed route from Riverwood to Kings Cross is on the web at:
http://www.bikely.com/maps/bike-path/Backpedalling-William-St

Or there is a tinyurl for it:
http://tinyurl.com/nax8l

If the ride is running slow its easy to shorten it up and take a couple of short cuts from about Mascot onwards, so I wouldn't guarantee the route will be exactly like this from Mascot onwards to Kings Cross.

If for some reason we are running short of time we can approach Kings Cross via Darlinghurst Rd. Route passes close by Bexley North, Tempe and Mascot railway stations, so even if you can only make it to the start of the ride and need to bail out you can get the train from there.

High tide for June 25 is 8:02am, 1.25m (path at Tempe under the railway should be ok when we pass through). The next high tide later that night at 8:07pm is a doozy, 1.87m, so if anyone hangs around for pizza then rides back towards the city via this route they should bear that in mind.

Scheduled City Rail trackwork for 24-25 June: Bankstown Line
Buses replace trains between Bankstown and Liverpool.

Inner West Line
Buses replace trains between Lidcombe and Liverpool via Regents Park.

South Line
Buses replace trains between Granville and Glenfield.

If you are looking at the Push On rides calendar, yes there is another ride that day with my name as contact leaving from Riverwood. I hate cancelling rides, Warren Artlett has kindly agreed to take on that ride in case anyone turns up for it, but we are really going to encourage people to go on the later 10am ride into William St.

Brief ride details have already been posted to and should appear on the Push On online calendar in a couple of days, and are also on the Bike South West BUG website:
http://www.bikesouthwest.org.au

Regards, Paul Johnson
Bike South West BUG rides coordinator
mobile 0438536458

----------------------------------------------------------

Contact details if you would like to send Morris Iemma a comment - you
know you do, you're itching to - please be polite ;-) If you can't be polite say something anyway:

The Hon. Morris IEMMA, BEc, LLB MP
* Member of the Legislative Assembly
* Member for Lakemba
* Premier, Minister for State Development, and Minister for Citizenship
* Member of Australian Labor Party

Contact Details

To ensure the speediest handling of messages, please select the correct
address:
Contact Mr Iemma in his capacity as Member for Lakemba
Address 48 Thurlow Street,
RIVERWOOD NSW 2210
Phone (02) 9584 1788
Fax (02) 9584 1945
Email [email hidden]

Contact Mr Iemma in his capacity as Premier, Minister for State Development, and Minister for Citizenship
Address Level 40 Governor Macquarie Tower,
1 Farrer Place,
SYDNEY NSW 2000
Phone (02) 9228 5239
Fax (02) 9228 3934
Email [email hidden]

About the Lakemba Electorate

Metropolitan, residential suburban. Located Sydney, southern. Principal suburbs: Belmore, Kingsgrove, Lakemba, Narwee, Punchbowl, Riverwood, Roselands and Wiley Park. Area: 19.49 sq km. Enrolment: 43,354.

------------------------------------------------------

[email hidden] wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

For goodness sakes: gloat in private about petrol prices and argue in
public about systemic transport change.

yours for a different social arrangement,
Sam R.

I don't think my original post in anyway "gloat" over the petrol
prices but I would still argue that some sort of congestion tax
would be inevitable if we want to start making the change away
from our dependence on petrol.

The Doctor said:

I don't think my original post in anyway "gloat" over the petrol
prices but I would still argue that some sort of congestion tax
would be inevitable if we want to start making the change away
from our dependence on petrol.

Why would you use a congestion tax to reduce overall car usage?

Congestion taxs apply to specific, small bounded areas eg. the centre of
London (21 sq. km). And it's not cost free either: there are administrative
overheads; many switched to public transport (which is heavily subsided
from general revenue costing taxpayers more); and it did lead to a
reduction in people traveling to the area which has cost businesses and if
they move to where customers are prepared to drive car then petrol usage
will rise.

If you want a stick that causes an overall reduction in petrol use then the
best method is taxation and we already have about 40c/l tax on petrol. That
is fair and encourages the use of more efficent cars and less driving.

Since most of the increase in petrol usage has been for increased trips to
schools, daycare, recreation and cross city commuting as employment
diversifies it won't be dealt with by a congestion tax. Nor can it be dealt
with cheaply by public transport.

The best solution is to provide people with services and employment close
to their house, and where lots of people want to travel between the same
places quick regular public transport.

dewatf.

dewatf said:

The best solution is to provide people with services and employment close to their house, and where lots of people want to travel between the same places quick regular public transport.

Then how do you propose easing the pain out in the existing brick & tile wonderlands?

Rate and fuel rises hit home July 24, 2006
http://finance.news.com.au/story/0,10166,19889703-462,00.html
SOARING petrol prices and hefty mortgages are forming tracts of financial pain around Melbourne. Many are hurting from a double whammy, a study warns. The double whammy comprises home loan debt and record fuel costs.

Petrol prices are rocketing towards $1.50 a litre and many economists tip another interest rate rise next month. Urban researchers Jago Dodson and Neil Sipe mapped dozens of areas under threat from budget strain based on income, mortgages and reliance on cars. Hot spots include Caroline Springs, Hillside, South Morang, Lilydale, Rowville, Narre Warren and Berwick. Mr Dodson said outer-suburban residents burdened by big mortgages and heavily dependent on cars were feeling the pinch the most. (more in link above)

In aus.bicycle on Tue, 25 Jul 2006 17:00:14 +1000

cfsmtb said:

strain based on income, mortgages and reliance on cars. Hot spots
include Caroline Springs, Hillside, South Morang, Lilydale, Rowville,
Narre Warren and Berwick. Mr Dodson said outer-suburban residents
burdened by big mortgages and heavily dependent on cars were feeling
the pinch the most. (more in link above)

PEople making bad decisions hit... Not that it was necessarily easy
to make a differnt decision.

When the housing bubble hit, it was better for someone with a family
to buy a larger place further out than to buy a small one closer in,
but I dunno how many people are in that situation.

And how many took advantage of cheap money and seemingly endless
summer to buy up big and expensive.

Where will those people do? Who will buy their houses and if they can
sell, where will they go to live?

I do wonder if my relatively cheap flat in this unknown rather
downmarket suburb less than 20km from the CBD will suddenly have a
little housing bubble all of its own. Right by the Cook's River Cycle
Path and all!

Zebee

cfsmtb said:

Then how do you propose easing the pain out in the existing brick & tile wonderlands?

Rate and fuel rises hit home July 24, 2006
http://finance.news.com.au/story/0,10166,19889703-462,00.html
SOARING petrol prices and hefty mortgages are forming tracts of financial pain around Melbourne. Many are hurting from a double whammy, a study warns. The double whammy comprises home loan debt and record fuel costs.

Petrol prices are rocketing towards $1.50 a litre and many economists tip another interest rate rise next month. Urban researchers Jago Dodson and Neil Sipe mapped dozens of areas under threat from budget strain based on income, mortgages and reliance on cars. Hot spots include Caroline Springs, Hillside, South Morang, Lilydale, Rowville, Narre Warren and Berwick. Mr Dodson said outer-suburban residents burdened by big mortgages and heavily dependent on cars were feeling the pinch the most. (more in link above)

This is what is wrong with society - we need urban researchers to tell us that people that drive a lot and have big mortgages are sensitive to higher interest rates and petrol prices!

R

dewatf <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

The Doctor said:

I don't think my original post in anyway "gloat" over the petrol
prices but I would still argue that some sort of congestion tax
would be inevitable if we want to start making the change away
from our dependence on petrol.

Why would you use a congestion tax to reduce overall car usage?

Congestion taxs apply to specific, small bounded areas eg. the centre
of London (21 sq. km). And it's not cost free either: there are
administrative overheads; many switched to public transport (which is
heavily subsided from general revenue costing taxpayers more); and it
did lead to a reduction in people traveling to the area which has cost
businesses and if they move to where customers are prepared to drive
car then petrol usage will rise.

And you don't call the centre of Sydney a small bounded area?
And why do people choose to drive along the M4 from the Western part of
Sydney to the East?

Quoted message said:

If you want a stick that causes an overall reduction in petrol use
then the best method is taxation and we already have about 40c/l tax
on petrol. That is fair and encourages the use of more efficent cars
and less driving.

I would suggest that at $1.50 a litre the cost of petrol is still not
painful enough for a lot of people to seek alternative.

Quoted message said:

Since most of the increase in petrol usage has been for increased
trips to schools, daycare, recreation and cross city commuting as
employment diversifies it won't be dealt with by a congestion tax. Nor
can it be dealt with cheaply by public transport.

The best solution is to provide people with services and employment
close to their house, and where lots of people want to travel between
the same places quick regular public transport.

People will also be forced to look into those alternatives with a
congestion tax.