Sealed Bearing problem in 501 hub ...

On 5 Nov 2006 22:45:33 -0800, [email hidden] (Donald Gillies)

Quoted message said:

I replaced the sealed bearings on the 501 hub. The grittiness in the
worn bearings is now gone. One bearing is a Phil Wood, one is an
original SKF from MAVIC. But, the strange problem still occurs, viz:

- when there is NOTHING on the hub (no freewheel), it spins smoothly.

- when a freewheel is installed, and the wheel is spun by hand
(freewheel spinng with the hub : not a freewheel problem, it happens
with several brands of freewheels), and/or when the wheel is ridden
down the road, there is a "bearing pop" feeling every turn of the
wheel - but only on the LEFT side of the wheel (i.e. when the weight
of the wheel is tilted so that the LEFT bearing takes most of the
weight.

When riding down the road, you can feel a clicking coming through the
drivetrain - at the pedals.

What could be causing this problem? I looked at Barnett's Manual and
they suggested that perhaps a loose bearing could be the cause. Both
bearings seemed exceedingly tight when they were press-fit into the
hub. I could only press them in by about 1/4 of a bearing width by
hand - after that, pressing tools were needed.

Any ideas?

- Don Gillies
San Diego, CA

Dear Don,

The bearings are two different brands.

If it's possible and not too much trouble, what about removing and
swapping the bearings?

If the clicking follows the bearing to the other side, get a new
bearing.

If the clicking stays on the same side, the bearings aren't the
problem.

If the clicking goes away, you've gotten the bearings inserted
correctly.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Ok, i failed to mention that I originally tried installing Phil Wood
bearings on both sides. The clicking still happened. After
exhausting my supply of unused Phil Wood bearings (I don't want to say
how many i wasted), I assumed I was lousy at installing bearings, so I
took the hub to the LBS and they put in one SKF bearing. The problem
still persisted.

So, to make a long story short, thanx for the suggestion but I've
already tried installing a fresh pair of matched bearings on both
sides - the problem does not go away.

- Don Gillies
San Diego, CA, USA

Donald Gillies said:

...when the wheel is ridden
down the road, there is a "bearing pop" feeling every turn of the
wheel ....When riding down the road, you can feel a clicking coming through the drivetrain - at the pedals.

You've switched bearings - problem remains. You've switched freewheel - problem remains.

If you can feel it through the drivetrain maybe it originates in the drivetrain and not in the wheel. Check if freq matches cadence or wheel rotations.

Is it the same coasting or pedalling?

Cracked frames can act funny - pedalling will stress one way - coasting another. Try flexing the frame (all of it), see if there is any unexpected movement somewhere.

Donald Gillies said:

I replaced the sealed bearings on the 501 hub. The grittiness in the
worn bearings is now gone. One bearing is a Phil Wood, one is an
original SKF from MAVIC. But, the strange problem still occurs, viz:

- when there is NOTHING on the hub (no freewheel), it spins smoothly.

- when a freewheel is installed, and the wheel is spun by hand
(freewheel spinng with the hub : not a freewheel problem, it happens
with several brands of freewheels), and/or when the wheel is ridden
down the road, there is a "bearing pop" feeling every turn of the
wheel - but only on the LEFT side of the wheel (i.e. when the weight
of the wheel is tilted so that the LEFT bearing takes most of the
weight.

When riding down the road, you can feel a clicking coming through the
drivetrain - at the pedals.

What could be causing this problem? I looked at Barnett's Manual and
they suggested that perhaps a loose bearing could be the cause. Both
bearings seemed exceedingly tight when they were press-fit into the
hub. I could only press them in by about 1/4 of a bearing width by
hand - after that, pressing tools were needed.

Any ideas?

- Don Gillies
San Diego, CA

Rim/tire??

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

Rim/tire??

This is a good suggestion, I will look at this, thanx peter.

When the wheel is spun _by hand_, _in my hand_, I can feel a popping
feeling. When the wheel is installed on the bike and ridden down the
road, popping is directly proportional to speed (and not proportional
to pedaling). Replacing the rear wheel with a different wheel solves
the problem. So the problem is definitely _somewhere_ in the rear
wheel.

- Don Gillies
San Diego, CA

Can someone tell me what will go wrong if an aluminum axle is bent on
a sealed bearing hub ?? What is the symptom?

Can someone tell me what will happen if the hub shell is somehow not
completely square (i.e. if one of the bearings is not parallel to the
other one) ?? As far as I am aware, this hub never worked properly.

Can someone tell me how "loose" a wheel bearing must be in the shell
in order to shift when it is spun, with a mild load (i.e. 1 lbs
freewheel) on the wheel?

Thanx,

- Don Gillies
San Diego, CA

On 6 Nov 2006 11:13:30 -0800, [email hidden] (Donald Gillies)

Quoted message said:

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

Rim/tire??

This is a good suggestion, I will look at this, thanx peter.

When the wheel is spun _by hand_, _in my hand_, I can feel a popping
feeling. When the wheel is installed on the bike and ridden down the
road, popping is directly proportional to speed (and not proportional
to pedaling). Replacing the rear wheel with a different wheel solves
the problem. So the problem is definitely _somewhere_ in the rear
wheel.

- Don Gillies
San Diego, CA

Dear Don,

When you replaced the rear wheel and the problem vanished, did you use
the same axle?

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Quoted message said:

On 6 Nov 2006 11:13:30 -0800, [email hidden] (Donald Gillies)

Quoted message said:

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

Rim/tire??

This is a good suggestion, I will look at this, thanx peter.

When the wheel is spun _by hand_, _in my hand_, I can feel a popping
feeling. When the wheel is installed on the bike and ridden down the
road, popping is directly proportional to speed (and not proportional
to pedaling). Replacing the rear wheel with a different wheel solves
the problem. So the problem is definitely _somewhere_ in the rear
wheel.

- Don Gillies
San Diego, CA

Dear Don,

When you replaced the rear wheel and the problem vanished, did you use
the same axle?

Oh yeah, doesn't everyone use the same axle when they swap out wheels?
Why just change wheels when you can make life really complicated by
removing and installing an axle?

Quoted message said:

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Donald Gillies said:

I replaced the sealed bearings on the 501 hub. The grittiness in the
worn bearings is now gone. One bearing is a Phil Wood, one is an
original SKF from MAVIC. But, the strange problem still occurs, viz:

- when there is NOTHING on the hub (no freewheel), it spins smoothly.

- when a freewheel is installed, and the wheel is spun by hand
(freewheel spinng with the hub : not a freewheel problem, it happens
with several brands of freewheels), and/or when the wheel is ridden
down the road, there is a "bearing pop" feeling every turn of the
wheel - but only on the LEFT side of the wheel (i.e. when the weight
of the wheel is tilted so that the LEFT bearing takes most of the
weight.

When riding down the road, you can feel a clicking coming through the
drivetrain - at the pedals.

What could be causing this problem? I looked at Barnett's Manual and
they suggested that perhaps a loose bearing could be the cause. Both
bearings seemed exceedingly tight when they were press-fit into the
hub. I could only press them in by about 1/4 of a bearing width by
hand - after that, pressing tools were needed.

Any ideas?

- Don Gillies
San Diego, CA

Long shot, but it might be the freewheel rocking on its pawls.

Donald Gillies said:

Can someone tell me what will go wrong if an aluminum axle is bent on
a sealed bearing hub ?? What is the symptom?

Could be this, I guess..take the axle out and see if it is bent, on a
flat surface, like a piece of glass..roll it and look at it.

Quoted message said:

Can someone tell me what will happen if the hub shell is somehow not
completely square (i.e. if one of the bearings is not parallel to the
other one) ?? As far as I am aware, this hub never worked properly.

Can someone tell me how "loose" a wheel bearing must be in the shell
in order to shift when it is spun, with a mild load (i.e. 1 lbs
freewheel) on the wheel?

Thanx,

- Don Gillies
San Diego, CA

Donald Gillies said:

I replaced the sealed bearings on the 501 hub. The grittiness in the
worn bearings is now gone. One bearing is a Phil Wood, one is an
original SKF from MAVIC. But, the strange problem still occurs, viz:

- when there is NOTHING on the hub (no freewheel), it spins smoothly.

- when a freewheel is installed, and the wheel is spun by hand
(freewheel spinng with the hub : not a freewheel problem, it happens
with several brands of freewheels), and/or when the wheel is ridden
down the road, there is a "bearing pop" feeling every turn of the
wheel - but only on the LEFT side of the wheel (i.e. when the weight
of the wheel is tilted so that the LEFT bearing takes most of the
weight.

When riding down the road, you can feel a clicking coming through the
drivetrain - at the pedals.

What could be causing this problem? I looked at Barnett's Manual and
they suggested that perhaps a loose bearing could be the cause. Both
bearings seemed exceedingly tight when they were press-fit into the
hub. I could only press them in by about 1/4 of a bearing width by
hand - after that, pressing tools were needed.

Any ideas?

Is the bearing cover on the drive side threaded in all the way? On my
501 rear, the bearing cover is *very* slightly below the level of the
hub shell. Just a shot in the dark.....

Quoted message said:

- Don Gillies
San Diego, CA

Quoted message said:

When you replaced the rear wheel and the problem vanished, did you use
the same axle?

Carl,

I'd love to be able to try this change. Unfortunately, it's a Mavic
501 wheel with a very unusual 100% aluminum axle, and I have no
spares. The only place I know of to get a spare is from England
(www.sjscycles.com), so I'm hoping someone in this group will tell me
that a bent axle on a sealed-bearing hub will often-times cause this
problem.

- Don Gillies
San Diego, CA

Ozark Bicycle said:

Is the bearing cover on the drive side threaded in all the way? On my
501 rear, the bearing cover is *very* slightly below the level of the
hub shell. Just a shot in the dark.....

This brings up a good question. If I overtighten the outer aluminum
bearing cover, or the inner steel cone adjuster (?), can it cause this
problem ?? I am not experienced with sealed bearing axles, and I have
visions of warping the outer race or the inner race if I overtighten
either of these items.

I typically tighten cones until they bind, then back off until the
wheel spins freely (weight of the valve at 3'oclock causes the wheel
to spin until valve is at 6 o'clock.) I have a set of unbrazed
dropouts so I do this adjustment with QR's installed with standard
installation force (90 degrees = finger tight, before locking down
QR), so that cones will definitely be perfect when installed on the
bike and QR's re-installed with the same force.

- Don Gillies
San Diego, CA

Donald Gillies said:

Ozark Bicycle said:

Is the bearing cover on the drive side threaded in all the way? On my
501 rear, the bearing cover is *very* slightly below the level of the
hub shell. Just a shot in the dark.....

This brings up a good question. If I overtighten the outer aluminum
bearing cover, or the inner steel cone adjuster (?), can it cause this
problem ?? I am not experienced with sealed bearing axles, and I have
visions of warping the outer race or the inner race if I overtighten
either of these items.

I typically tighten cones until they bind, then back off until the
wheel spins freely (weight of the valve at 3'oclock causes the wheel
to spin until valve is at 6 o'clock.) I have a set of unbrazed
dropouts so I do this adjustment with QR's installed with standard
installation force (90 degrees = finger tight, before locking down
QR), so that cones will definitely be perfect when installed on the
bike and QR's re-installed with the same force.

Do you have a freewheel (or BB cup) spacer handy? It would be
interesting to see if that changes things.

On 8 Nov 2006 08:49:50 -0800, [email hidden] (Donald Gillies)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

When you replaced the rear wheel and the problem vanished, did you use
the same axle?

Carl,

I'd love to be able to try this change. Unfortunately, it's a Mavic
501 wheel with a very unusual 100% aluminum axle, and I have no
spares. The only place I know of to get a spare is from England
(www.sjscycles.com), so I'm hoping someone in this group will tell me
that a bent axle on a sealed-bearing hub will often-times cause this
problem.

- Don Gillies
San Diego, CA

Dear Don,

Sorry, I used the wrong word.

I meant the quick-release, skewer and nuts, not the axle.

A different skewer and nuts shouldn't make any difference, since they
just compress the real axle from each end.

But I know a fellow who had a funny rear wheel feeling (very faint
bump was how he described it, not a click) that went away when he used
a different skewer and nuts and came back when he used the original,
which he promptly threw away.

It never made any sense to me, but I couldn't argue with his success.
Solving a funny-noise problem is often a matter of replacing or
adjusting everything in sight until the least likely suspect
confesses.

In any case, trying a different skewer and nuts would be a quick and
easy check.

(Using "QR" instead of "skewer and nuts" would be quick, too, but I'm
punishing myself, somewhat like Bart Simpson writing it all out on the
blackboard.)

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Quoted message said:

Sorry, I used the wrong word.

Quoted message said:

I meant the quick-release, skewer and nuts, not the axle.

Ahh, this is a very good idea and I will try it tomorrow morning.
Perhaps the skewer is [censored]-eyed and is putting more pressure on one
side of the axle than the other, causing the bearings to misbehave
when they slide through that portion of their radius.

- Don Gillies
San Diego, CA

Donald Gillies said:

Quoted message said:

Sorry, I used the wrong word.

Quoted message said:

I meant the quick-release, skewer and nuts, not the axle.

Ahh, this is a very good idea and I will try it tomorrow morning.
Perhaps the skewer is [censored]-eyed and is putting more pressure on one
side of the axle than the other, causing the bearings to misbehave
when they slide through that portion of their radius.

But, the unusual little devices at the ends of the axle are designed to
eliminate the effects of mis-aligned dropouts on the bearings, that's
why they 'rotate' relative to the axis of the axle. They should do the
same for a 'bad' QR.

Donald Gillies said:

.. If I overtighten the outer aluminum
bearing cover, or the inner steel cone adjuster (?), can it cause this
problem ?? I am not experienced with sealed bearing axles, and I have
visions of warping the outer race or the inner race if I overtighten
either of these items.

I assume you're talking about cartrigde bearings, as pretty much all bearings on a bike are sealed one way or another.

If this is the case there is no need to worry about that, the left/right inner race shoould be braced against each other, either through the design of the axle, or through a spacer sleeve threade over the axle. Overtightening is not a problem unless it's done to an extent that collapses axle or spacer...

On 8 Nov 2006 14:18:54 -0800, [email hidden] (Donald Gillies)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Sorry, I used the wrong word.

Quoted message said:

I meant the quick-release, skewer and nuts, not the axle.

Ahh, this is a very good idea and I will try it tomorrow morning.
Perhaps the skewer is [censored]-eyed and is putting more pressure on one
side of the axle than the other, causing the bearings to misbehave
when they slide through that portion of their radius.

- Don Gillies
San Diego, CA

Dear Don,

I wish I could say it's a good idea, but the truth is that it's more
an annoying idea.

I'm damned if I can see how a different axle skewer and nuts could
cause a wheel click or bump--

But it's so quick and easy to check if you have another quick-release
handy, and the fellow who fixed his wheel's mystery bump noise was
emphatic that it came and went with the original skewer, which he
threw away.

On a shelf in my basement is an ancient power supply from a 486 with a
note that reminds me that replacing it fixed a Lantastic network
problem.

I'd replaced and tested every other component in the computer with
known good parts from its twin brother ten feet away at a medical
office. The stupid thing would even run Artisoft's network test
program successfully, but then fail to log in to the real network 7
out of 10 times. I felt idiotic, swapping power supplies, but the
problem happily followed the power supply into any machine. Something
odd must have gone bad in the power supply, causing an output that
confused network signals, but not hard drives, floppy drives, tape
drives, video cards, motherboards, i/o controllers, serial ports,
parallel ports, keyboards, or RAM chips.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel