Singletrackin: Munis vs Bikes

I can keep up somtimes but not much.

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On a techy singletrack loop like Cwmcarn or Afan (In the UK) I usually
go at about the same average speed as a large group of bikers as they
usually take frequent stops to regroup. Solos and pairs I only ever see
once as they go past. I have overtaken a few mountain bikers on climbs
but can't keep up on the flat and am way behind on the downs. I'm a
pretty slow rider FWIW

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Ah, geekery.

This is a loop I do around Malvern occasionally to see how fast I can
go. On smooth, steady climbs the unicycle is as fast if not faster than
the bike, but if the surface is rougher the bike edges ahead. Downhill,
though, the bike can't be seen for dust, and I'm not too sure about
level sections because there aren't any round here...

The whole loop is just over 8 miles long; the last time I tried it took
45 minutes on the bike and 61 minutes on the 29er. I haven't tried the
muni yet. I can keep up with bike groups riding at a leisurely pace on
the 29er, using a bit of nattering time to catch up after downhill
bits, but unless the whole route is a steady climb there's no way I
could keep up with proper fast people.

Phil

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When I was in my good shape, I was able to outrun a friend (who was out
of shape on a bike).
I was also able to comfortably ride with another friend who didn't care
much about speed.

Kris Holm (on a 24"😉 did Moab with a set of friends on bikes and that
worked out.
I think they are doing 10+ mile days even.

I know at least one trail here where a bike and uni would be evenly
matched
(loose rock, 12% grade, 1/2 mile).

It also depends on the style of riding.
If your friends are into trials, they aren't going to care much about
racing to the next section.
However, if they are into BMX style riding . . .

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phil said:

Ah, geekery.

This is a loop I do around Malvern occasionally to see how fast I can
go. On smooth, steady climbs the unicycle is as fast if not faster than
the bike, but if the surface is rougher the bike edges ahead. Downhill,
though, the bike can't be seen for dust, and I'm not too sure about
level sections because there aren't any round here...

The whole loop is just over 8 miles long; the last time I tried it took
45 minutes on the bike and 61 minutes on the 29er. I haven't tried the
muni yet. I can keep up with bike groups riding at a leisurely pace on
the 29er, using a bit of nattering time to catch up after downhill
bits, but unless the whole route is a steady climb there's no way I
could keep up with proper fast people.

Phil

Wow, thanks for all that info. So, speaking of 29ers, is this an
off-road trail or a paved lane or what? If off-road, how does the 29er
do out there? I have been thinking of upsizing from my 24x3, been
wondering about a 26x3 which would be the equivalent size of a 29er.
Just curious if they're better/worse/worth the money...

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yoopers said:

You've obviously shown your colors and proven that only a narrow band
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AscenXion.

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My experience is pretty much like Phil's. I'm way quicker on a bike on
smooth flat or downhill stuff , but uphill I'm quicker on the muni
until it gets too rough for me to ride (this is cross-country, although
I pretty much never ride my mountain bike anymore - on the road there's
no comparison, bike is always far faster). My usual muni route to work
is about 9 miles, mostly xc, some (steep) road. It's mostly downhill
going in and mostly uphill coming home (I live on the top of a hill and
work at the bottom). Going down takes me about 55 minutes on the muni,
but I can do it in something like 35 minutes on a mountain bike.
Coming back the bike isn't so much quicker - takes about 1 hr 15 mins
on the muni on a good day and only about 10 minutes quicker on the
bike.
On the road bike I can be down there in less than 20 minutes if I welly
it and the sheep are well-behaved - I'm not going to come close to that
on a unicycle... but the original question was about muni, so it's not
really relevant.
Oh, by the way, my muni is a 26x3 and I reckon I'm quicker on that than
I am on a 29er, just because it's so stable and doesn't take so much
concentration to keep up a spin. Bit more weight to pull up hills
though. 29ers are lighter but more jittery, but most people seem to
prefer them for xc racing - probably just what you get used to. Cokers
are potentially quite a bit quicker though in the hands (feet?) of a
good rider.

Rob

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AscenXion said:

Wow, thanks for all that info. So, speaking of 29ers, is this an
off-road trail or a paved lane or what? If off-road, how does the 29er
do out there? I have been thinking of upsizing from my 24x3, been
wondering about a 26x3 which would be the equivalent size of a 29er.
Just curious if they're better/worse/worth the money...

If you have a 24x3, don't bother getting a 26x3. They're really not
very different in terms of speed; you'd be better off just putting
shorter cranks on the 24x3. A 29er will do fine off-road; for
non-technical to lightly technical trails, a 29er is more fun than a
full-on MUni, and it can handle even moderately technical terrain if
you put long cranks on it. (If you put *really* long cranks on it,
195mm like Jim Roberts did, you can even ride Moab terrain).

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rob.northcott said:

29ers are lighter but more jittery, but most people seem to prefer them
for xc racing - probably just what you get used to. Cokers are
potentially quite a bit quicker though in the hands (feet?) of a good
rider.

Have you tried a 29er away from the rocks of Dartmoor? They excel at
going very quickly over smooth ground; generally this is the kind of
terrain races will be over. Over rockier ground like Dartmoor the tyres
are just too thin so unless you can weave around every single rock
you're going to get shaken around a lot more than on a much softer muni
tyre.

The 29er is fast but over lumpy rocks it can feel like you've forgotten
to put the tyre on...

Phil

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phil said:

Have you tried a 29er away from the rocks of Dartmoor?

No, but I've ridden them on the smoother rocky/gravelly stuff (like the
old railway line down from Princetown), which isn't really any rougher
than grass or rougher fireroads. I just find them far harder to
control (like a muni with the tyre pressure too high) and the extra
concentration needed makes me feel less inclined to ride so fast.
Better riders than me (i.e. technically and experience-wise, rather
than physically) may well be able to get over the trippiness (that's a
good word 🙂) and take advantage of the lower weight. There must be
something in it otherwise 29ers wouldn't be so popular with the xc
racers.

phil said:

They excel at going very quickly over smooth ground; generally this is
the kind of terrain races will be over.

You're probably right. Most of my riding does tend to be at the
bumpier end of cross-country. The fat tyre definitely wasn't good in
the slime at Sleepless :o - could have done with something skinnier
then (if only coz it would have been lighter to carry).

Anyway, that's all a bit off-topic for this thread... there must be a
reason why 29ers are so much more popular that 26x3s, but it doesn't
really affect the bike/unicycle comparison.

Rob

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I've been on a fair few muni rides with bikes. As long as you're keeping
it technical with no nasty fireroads it's okay as you can keep up or
catch up a bit at gossip breaks, but once you get to any wide open flat
or downhill sections you're screwed.

It is hard to keep up even on twisty singletrack after the first 20
miles or so of a days ride though, I've found that taking a large
quantity of sugary sweets like skittles or something with you helps.

Also making sure to ride with fat people helps too, rather than with
racing whippets. I certainly couldn't go riding with bike riders of
similar fitness to me.

Joe

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You guys must be joking... there is no way a muni could keep up with a
bike, period. At least not my bike - a Marin Attack Trail, a long
wheel-base full suspension 6" travel bike with 2.5" tires and E13 DRS
chain guide. I easily go 10 or so MPH through rocky trails, up and
down hill. I just aim downhill and rip it, the bike handles everything
and anything.

But then again, I'm no ordinary biker. My avid unicycling has
transfered some amazing balancing skills over to my biking. My mtb'ing
friends always comment on my ability to crawl and hop over really rocky
sections, and they readily attribute it to my unicycling.

OTOH, I'm not a muni-er, so perhaps the muni would have an advantage on
some really technical stuff, I just don't know. I've seen some vids of
some amazing muni. OTOH I'm more likely to just huck it over technical
stuff on my bike - just lean back and rip it through.

It seems that good muni'ing requires some real serious skills, but good
biking is possible with just some confidence and speed.

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CrazyChrisVT said:

You guys must be joking... there is no way a muni could keep up with a
bike, period.

Who said it could? Over a random stretch of cross-country a bike will
always be quicker, but in some situations (certainly if it's uphill)
not by much. If you pick the course artificially so it's all slight
uphill a muni may well be slightly quicker. On a smoothish downhill,
or course, the bike is obviously much faster. This is assuming the
same rider of course (or at least the same ability of rider). A fast
unicyclist will very often be quicker cross-country than a casual
biker. A fantastic biker like yourself wouldn't be caught by a muni
(although you'd be surprised in the right conditions: I've left a few
very embarassed posers with fancy bikes on my way home from work).

Rob

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CrazyChrisVT said:

You guys must be joking... there is no way a muni could keep up with a
bike, period. At least not my bike - a Marin Attack Trail, a long
wheel-base full suspension 6" travel bike with 2.5" tires and E13 DRS
chain guide. I easily go 10 or so MPH through rocky trails, up and
down hill. I just aim downhill and rip it, the bike handles everything
and anything.

Not wanting to be rude, but 10mph is pretty slow for a bike, on a
downhill muni riders can go significantly faster than that.

On the sort of downhill trail that you can just point down and let go,
a bike will always be faster unless the rider is a complete wuss.
Riding up, whilst the muni can still ride your heavy bike will slow you
down loads compared to the muni. When it gets tight and twisty and
technical, you'll be slowed down, particularly on a long travel full
suspension bike, particularly if your technique involves a lot of just
hanging on and riding over stuff.

I've met some xc bike racers with stupid light bikes, who could beat me
on absolutely any uphill or downhill, whether I was on a bike or a
unicycle, but pretty consistently the sort of people with long travel
bikes and super fat tyres were slower than me uphill and faster
downhill, except when it got really twisty, where I could just about
keep up on the downhill. The XC racing people just have the skills to
ride stuff efficiently, which combined with super fitness is
unbeatable.

Joe

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CrazyChrisVT said:

I easily go 10 or so MPH through rocky trails, up and down hill.

On an Attack Trail I'd like to see you go up a steep fireroad at 10mph.
A unicycle has a "lowest speed" for going uphill at which you have to
keep pedalling to maintain your momentum and balance; on the 29er I
find this is around 5-6mph. On a bike you just click down the gears
until you're going at around 4. On this kind of hill a bike can outpace
a unicycle for a short burst but it's not sustainable. This is evident
on long road rides or endurance events where the bikes scream past
going downhill but uphill a unicyclist will be going much faster.

My fastest bike for going upwards is actually the singlespeed rather
than the proper bike for similar reasons; it is much lighter than the
big bike but with no gears to twiddle you have to keep pedalling to
maintain your momentum.

Phil

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tholub said:

If you have a 24x3, don't bother getting a 26x3. They're really not
very different in terms of speed; you'd be better off just putting
shorter cranks on the 24x3. A 29er will do fine off-road; for
non-technical to lightly technical trails, a 29er is more fun than a
full-on MUni, and it can handle even moderately technical terrain if
you put long cranks on it. (If you put *really* long cranks on it,
195mm like Jim Roberts did, you can even ride Moab terrain).

26x3 and 29ers have the same diameter wheel size. I understand that a
26x3 will be more heavy, and thus not quite as quick or flicky, but I'm
intersted primarily in MUni, secondarily in everything else,
tertiarilly in...well, nothing, I just wanted to use the word
tertiarilly. (I just checked that to make sure I spelled it correctly,
and what do you know, it turns out that it's not a real word...and here
I am thinking that I'm using a big word...darn. However, I hereby
petition that "tertiarilly" be placed into the dictionary henceforth.)

Just curiously, why do you say that a 29er is more fun? Are you a
brunette? 😉

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yoopers said:

You've obviously shown your colors and proven that only a narrow band
of people can exist in your world where you are an intolerant god,
AscenXion.

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phil said:

Have you tried a 29er away from the rocks of Dartmoor? They excel at
going very quickly over smooth ground; generally this is the kind of
terrain races will be over. Over rockier ground like Dartmoor the tyres
are just too thin so unless you can weave around every single rock
you're going to get shaken around a lot more than on a much softer muni
tyre.

The 29er is fast but over lumpy rocks it can feel like you've forgotten
to put the tyre on...

Phil

And over technical singletrack, the tire lets you know that it's had
enough of your shananigans, and makes you walk home.

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yoopers said:

You've obviously shown your colors and proven that only a narrow band
of people can exist in your world where you are an intolerant god,
AscenXion.

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rob.northcott said:

Better riders than me (i.e. technically and experience-wise, rather
than physically) may well be able to get over the trippiness (that's a
good word 🙂)

Rob

Did the sixties happen fifteen years later over there? 😉

Hey, and while I've got you here, and we're off topic anywho. I have a
question. What's the difference between England, Britain, and the UK?
My friend actually just got back from 4 months over there, and she
couldn't even tell me. 🙂

Oh, and since this is my thread, I hereby refuse to allow you to worry
about something not being on topic. Discussion flows where discussion
is wanton to flow.

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yoopers said:

You've obviously shown your colors and proven that only a narrow band
of people can exist in your world where you are an intolerant god,
AscenXion.

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CrazyChrisVT said:

You guys must be joking... there is no way a muni could keep up with a
bike, period. At least not my bike - a Marin Attack Trail, a long
wheel-base full suspension 6" travel bike with 2.5" tires and E13 DRS
chain guide. I easily go 10 or so MPH through rocky trails, up and
down hill. I just aim downhill and rip it, the bike handles everything
and anything.

But then again, I'm no ordinary biker. My avid unicycling has
transfered some amazing balancing skills over to my biking. My mtb'ing
friends always comment on my ability to crawl and hop over really rocky
sections, and they readily attribute it to my unicycling.

OTOH, I'm not a muni-er, so perhaps the muni would have an advantage on
some really technical stuff, I just don't know. I've seen some vids of
some amazing muni. OTOH I'm more likely to just huck it over technical
stuff on my bike - just lean back and rip it through.

It seems that good muni'ing requires some real serious skills, but good
biking is possible with just some confidence and speed.

Well, that is one impressive bike that you're talking up on a
unicycling forum. 🙂 Remind me one day to tell you all about my
telephone...

But seriouslly, that's why I stated technical singletrack without too
many hills. I have just begun muniing, I've only been out half a dozen
times, and the last time, I was averaging about 7.5 mph with my 24x3.
And my conditioning leaves a LOT to be desired, as obviously does my
skill and technique. So, braging about 10 mph just doesn't really seem
appropriate...imho 😎

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yoopers said:

You've obviously shown your colors and proven that only a narrow band
of people can exist in your world where you are an intolerant god,
AscenXion.

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AscenXion said:

26x3 and 29ers have the same diameter wheel size. I understand that a
26x3 will be more heavy, and thus not quite as quick or flicky, but I'm
intersted primarily in MUni, secondarily in everything else,
tertiarilly in...well, nothing, I just wanted to use the word
tertiarilly. (I just checked that to make sure I spelled it correctly,
and what do you know, it turns out that it's not a real word...and here
I am thinking that I'm using a big word...darn. However, I hereby
petition that "tertiarilly" be placed into the dictionary henceforth.)

Just curiously, why do you say that a 29er is more fun? Are you a
brunette? 😉

I say a 29er is more fun because I have a lot of experience riding
29ers, 26x3, and 24" MUni setups, and in my experience, the 29er *is*
more fun on easy stuff, and the 26" and 24" are about equal on all
types of terrain. A 26x3 really doesn't *feel* any faster than a 24x3
on the trails; the 26x3 is a little better at floating over loose
scree, but in most cases the speed difference is imperceptible. The
softness and chunkiness of the tire keep you from being able to flow
quickly down the trails. Whereas on a 29er, you can definitely get the
feeling of the wind in your hair as you're zipping down fast
singletrack.

If you can, borrow someone's 26x3 and go for a ride. It really doesn't
feel that different.

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