Sleeping hrs and Racing Training

(FasCat) said:

How many hours of sleep do you get per day? I know this is a racing forum but I also know that many
of you are knowledgeable on the subject.

Training threads are few and far between.

And then turn into a flame war about whether you need an 11 or not.

--
Scott Johnson "Always with the excuses for small legs. People like you are why they only open the
top half of caskets." -Tommy Bowen

who gives a [censored] what they are sleeping. if you aren't getting sick, and your times/strengths are
improving keep it up. maybe you not going hard enough during your workouts, maybe you have anxiety?
figure your own style out and let it rip....

"FasCat" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

. Numerous articles and studies tout sleep's benefits because more sleep means more growth hormone
secretion from the pituitary gland which means greater recovery which allows an athlete to train
harder and more frequently.

While lack of adequate sleep can certainly interfere with training, the notion that more sleep =
more growth hormone secretion = better training adaptions is bogus. Whatever author or coach you
heard that from doesn't know diddly-squat about the physiology of exercise and training.

Andy Coggan

Quoted message said:

Subject: Re: Sleeping hrs and Racing Training From: "Andy Coggan" [email hidden] Date:
1/24/03 1:05 PM Central Standard Time Message-id:
<[email hidden]>

"FasCat" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

. Numerous articles and studies tout sleep's benefits because more sleep means more growth hormone
secretion from the pituitary gland which means greater recovery which allows an athlete to train
harder and more frequently.

While lack of adequate sleep can certainly interfere with training, the notion that more sleep =
more growth hormone secretion = better training adaptions is bogus. Whatever author or coach you
heard that from doesn't know diddly-squat about the physiology of exercise and training.

Andy Coggan

I completely agree with the Doc here. I have been living on about 6-7hrs of sleep a night for years
now and did fine with racing.

Although I must note that this offseason I have made an effort to get at least 8hrs a night and it
has made a huge difference in my training. I feel more rested because of the extra sleep.

jason

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In the warmer months when I'm riding nearly everyday I do well on 9 hours of sleep. In the winter I
notice I can get by easily on 6 but feel sluggish. I notice that as soon as I start training the
sleep requirement goes way up and I could easily sleep 9-11 hours. Whether I actually need that much
is not known, but mentally and physically I feel I'm in best form with that much.

Jason Waddell said:

Quoted message said:

Subject: Re: Sleeping hrs and Racing Training From: "Andy Coggan" [email hidden] Date:
1/24/03 1:05 PM Central Standard Time Message-id:
<[email hidden]>

"FasCat" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

. Numerous articles and studies tout sleep's benefits because more sleep means more growth
hormone secretion from the pituitary gland which means greater recovery which allows an athlete
to train harder and more frequently.

While lack of adequate sleep can certainly interfere with training, the notion that more sleep =
more growth hormone secretion = better training adaptions is bogus. Whatever author or coach you
heard that from doesn't know diddly-squat about the physiology of exercise and training.

Andy Coggan

I completely agree with the Doc here. I have been living on about 6-7hrs of sleep a night for years
now and did fine with racing.

Although I must note that this offseason I have made an effort to get at least 8hrs a night and it
has made a huge difference in my training. I feel more rested because of the extra sleep.

jason

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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN"> <html> <head> <title></title>
</head> <body> In the warmer months when I'm riding nearly everyday I do well on 9 hours of
sleep. In <br> the winter I notice I can get by easily on 6 but feel sluggish. I
notice that as soon as I start<br> training the sleep requirement goes way up and I could easily
sleep 9-11 hours. Whether I <br> actually need that much is not known, but mentally and
physically I feel I'm in best form <br> with that much. <br> <br> Jason Waddell wrote:<br>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="[email hidden]"> <blockquote
type="cite"> <pre wrap="">Subject: Re: Sleeping hrs and Racing Training From: "Andy Coggan" <a
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href=""][email hidden]">[email hidden]</a> Date:
1/24/03 1:05 PM Central Standard Time Message-id: <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:F7g-
[email hidden]"><[email hidden]-
thlink.net></a>

"FasCat" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href=""][email hidden]"><[email hidden]></a> wrote in message <a
class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href=""]news:[email hidden]">news:c624-
[email hidden]</a>... </pre> <blockquote type="cite"> <pre wrap="">.
Numerous articles and studies tout sleep's benefits because more sleep means more growth hormone
secretion from the pituitary gland which means greater recovery which allows an athlete to train
harder and more frequently. </pre> </blockquote> <pre wrap="">While lack of adequate sleep can
certainly interfere with training, the notion that more sleep = more growth hormone secretion =
better training adaptions is bogus. Whatever author or coach you heard that from doesn't know
diddly-squat about the physiology of exercise and training.

Andy Coggan </pre> </blockquote> <pre wrap=""><!---->

I completely agree with the Doc here. I have been living on about 6-7hrs of sleep a night for years
now and did fine with racing.

Although I must note that this offseason I have made an effort to get at least 8hrs a night and it
has made a huge difference in my training. I feel more rested because of the extra sleep.

jason </pre> </blockquote> <br> </body> </html>

--------------090308070100010907070703--

FasCat said:

How many hours of sleep do you get per day? I know this is a racing forum but I also know that
many of you are knowledgeable on the subject.

You need 11. Some can get away with 12.

I would agree with JTN: Your need to rest is particular to you. I wouldn't change purely for the
sake of change. If you feel like you are tired, get more rest; if you aren't tired don't worry about
it. However, when you change your training, i.e. sudden increase in time riding or increase in
intesity, expect your body to need more rest until it adapts to the new training.

Personally, the more I trained the deeper my sleep was and I actually needed less sleep than when I
was training lightly or not training.

"Andy Coggan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

"FasCat" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

. Numerous articles and studies tout sleep's benefits because more sleep means more growth
hormone secretion from the pituitary gland which means greater recovery which allows an athlete
to train harder and more frequently.

While lack of adequate sleep can certainly interfere with training, the notion that more sleep =
more growth hormone secretion = better training adaptions is bogus. Whatever author or coach you
heard that from doesn't know diddly-squat about the physiology of exercise and training.

Andy Coggan

I'm trying to think where I read that. I'm not gonna name names but I think it was.... Nope not
gonna do it. Everybody, thanks for the feedback. I guess I'm just getting old. In college I could
sleep at will. Anytime any place. Even in my early 20's I had to set the 'ol alarm clock on the
weekends so I wouldn't sleep 'til noon. Late twenties--would get up around 8am no alarm clock. But
the past couple of mornings I've friggin' woken up too early. Its the whole should I race and train
full time or should I walk away from the sport on a high note and get on with a career. 'Anxiety' as
someone said.

FasCat said:

I'm trying to think where I read that. I'm not gonna name names but I think it was.... Nope not
gonna do it.

Please attempt to arrange these completely random words for the answer:

Friel, Bible, Training, Cyclist's, Joe ....

--
Bill

"BBC3" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:TNlY9.25213$6G4.6124@sccrnsc02...

Quoted message said:

FasCat said:

I'm trying to think where I read that. I'm not gonna name names but I think it was.... Nope not
gonna do it.

Please attempt to arrange these completely random words for the answer:

Friel, Bible, Training, Cyclist's, Joe ....

You're kidding - Friel actually claimed the growth hormone secretion was key to training
adaptations? I didn't realize that the idea was so deep-rooted.

Andy Coggan

FasCat said:

of mornings I've friggin' woken up too early. Its the whole should I race and train full time
or should I walk away from the sport on a high note and get on with a career. 'Anxiety' as
someone said.

I see. This an attempt to turn the group into your own personal
psychology forum. Sleep on it, is my advice.

... . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . [email hidden] Kyle Legate [email hidden]

Tower of Tongues:Thursday PM:10:30-11:30 EDT:http://cfmu.mcmaster.ca moon
musick:ritual:IDM:experimental(electronica):minimalism:glitch
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ...

Andy Coggan said:

You're kidding - Friel actually claimed the growth hormone secretion was

key

Quoted message said:

to training adaptations? I didn't realize that the idea was so

deep-rooted.

I believe the claim is that you get a hit of growth hormone for each workout and for each sleep
cycle. If I remember correctly Friel suggests 2 workouts split by a nap for this very reason. I
think Friel is a pretty sharp guy, so I would be tempted to look for the facts behind this
assertion.

--
Bill

In article cVpY9.25435$Ve4.3528@sccrnsc03 said:

Andy Coggan said:

You're kidding - Friel actually claimed the growth hormone secretion was

key

Quoted message said:

to training adaptations? I didn't realize that the idea was so

deep-rooted.

I believe the claim is that you get a hit of growth hormone for each workout and for each sleep
cycle. If I remember correctly Friel suggests 2 workouts split by a nap for this very reason. I
think Friel is a pretty sharp guy, so I would be tempted to look for the facts behind this
assertion.

Long workouts encourage secretions of cortisol, which IIRC is not condusive to growth and recovery.
Twice daily, shorter workouts can be used instead for some types of training to reduce cortisol
production, and often with a nap in between the workouts to help recovery. I used to know the 10K
World Record (26:12 I think it was) holder and he followed this format, along with many other top
athletes. But then, he trained for a living so all he had to do on most days was get up, run, rest,
run some more, sleep, and eat. Why wouldn't he sleep a few times per 24 hours?

-WG

BBC3 said:

I believe the claim is that you get a hit of growth hormone for each workout and for each sleep
cycle. If I remember correctly Friel suggests 2 workouts split by a nap for this very reason. I
think Friel is a pretty sharp guy, so I would be tempted to look for the facts behind this
assertion.

Triathlete's Training Bible, p9: "...it's during sleep that the body restores energy levels, and
releases growth hormone to repair damage and grow stronger."

p16: "Sleeping and working out have a synergistic effect on fitness. Each can cause the release of
growth hormone from the pituitary gland. Growth hormone speeds recovery, rebuilds muscles and
breaks down body fat. By training twice daily, the dedicated athlete gets four hits of growth
hormone daily resulting in higher levels of fitness sooner."

But then he also suggests that by taking contraceptive pills, women get an increased level of growth
hormone. Hang on, didn't that US spinter use that as an excuse...?

STF Currently 3 workouts a day and two naps, but not for the reasons Friel suggests...

"BBC3" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:cVpY9.25435$Ve4.3528@sccrnsc03...

Quoted message said:

Andy Coggan said:

You're kidding - Friel actually claimed the growth hormone secretion was

key

Quoted message said:

to training adaptations? I didn't realize that the idea was so

deep-rooted.

I believe the claim is that you get a hit of growth hormone for each

workout

Quoted message said:

and for each sleep cycle. If I remember correctly Friel suggests 2

workouts

Quoted message said:

split by a nap for this very reason. I think Friel is a pretty sharp guy, so I would be tempted to
look for the facts behind this assertion.

Apparently not sharp enough, if he believes that growth hormone plays a significant role in the
physiological adaptations to exercise training.

Andy Coggan

"warren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Long workouts encourage secretions of cortisol, which IIRC is not condusive to growth and
recovery.

Chronic elevation of cortisol, such as occurs with major trauma or burn injury, plays a significant
role in the catabolic response that results. However, "triple hormone" studies (i.e., infusion of
epinephrine, glucagon, and cortisol, the three major catabolic hormones secreted by the body in
response to injury - and exercise) have shown that in the first 48-72 hours, cortisol does not exert
any significant effects. As well, blocking the cortisol response to acute exercise has no apparent
impact on metabolism. Thus, if cortisol plays any role in training adaptations, overtraining
effects, etc., one would expect that it is related to more long-term changes in secretion, and may
not be readily modifiable via manipulation of workout duration/timing.

Andy Coggan

"Stewart Fleming" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

p16: Growth hormone speeds recovery, rebuilds muscles and breaks down body

fat.

Friel is wrong: growth hormone doesn't "rebuild muscles" (see studies by Yarasheski et al., among
others), and it requires pharmacological/non-physiological doses of it to stimulate lipolysis.

Andy Coggan

Andy Coggan said:

Apparently not sharp enough, if he believes that growth hormone plays a significant role in the
physiological adaptations to exercise training.

This discussion is above my knowledge level, and that does not take long. However, I think you
should let Joe Friel know if you feel so strongly about this. Perhaps he can provide some
references. I don't know what to think about the growth hormone bit, but I can tell you from
experience that two workouts per day seems to have a dramatic positive effect on my training. I
guess it would be nice to know why this is.

--
Bill

"Andy Coggan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

"BBC3" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:cVpY9.25435$Ve4.3528@sccrnsc03...

Quoted message said:

Andy Coggan said:

You're kidding - Friel actually claimed the growth hormone secretion was

key

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

to training adaptations? I didn't realize that the idea was so

deep-rooted.

I believe the claim is that you get a hit of growth hormone for each

workout

Quoted message said:

and for each sleep cycle. If I remember correctly Friel suggests 2

workouts

Quoted message said:

split by a nap for this very reason. I think Friel is a pretty sharp guy, so I would be tempted
to look for the facts behind this assertion.

Apparently not sharp enough, if he believes that growth hormone plays a significant role in the
physiological adaptations to exercise training.

Andy Coggan

OK, OK, why is growth hormone widely used as a performance enhancing doping product?