Slime tube demo

Quoted message said:

My rear tire held all the way home, dropping from 120 psi to 90 psi
without me even noticing it on the smooth pavement (d'oh!), but it
looks as if I need to put in a fresh tube and patch this one:

http://i9.tinypic.com/5xsbmg1.jpg

I just happened to glance at it this evening. That lurid green stuff
doesn't leave any room for excuses about just topping up the tire.
Looks like flat #16 in 120 rides so far this year, about one per week.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

OMG! It's upside down & steel rim (if I'm not mistaken. It sure looks
like one) Double blasphemy!
Specialized's slime may or may not be better that Slime's Slime, but
it doesn't have that easy to spot fluorescence.

John

In article <[email hidden]>,

john said:

Quoted message said:

My rear tire held all the way home, dropping from 120 psi to 90 psi
without me even noticing it on the smooth pavement (d'oh!), but it
looks as if I need to put in a fresh tube and patch this one:

http://i9.tinypic.com/5xsbmg1.jpg

I just happened to glance at it this evening. That lurid green stuff
doesn't leave any room for excuses about just topping up the tire.
Looks like flat #16 in 120 rides so far this year, about one per week.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

OMG! It's upside down & steel rim (if I'm not mistaken. It sure looks
like one) Double blasphemy!
Specialized's slime may or may not be better that Slime's Slime, but
it doesn't have that easy to spot fluorescence.

You're almost certainly mistaken about the steel rim, and besides, they
are their own punishment.

--
Ryan Cousineau [email hidden] http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos

john said:

Quoted message said:

My rear tire held all the way home, dropping from 120 psi to 90 psi
without me even noticing it on the smooth pavement (d'oh!), but it
looks as if I need to put in a fresh tube and patch this one:

http://i9.tinypic.com/5xsbmg1.jpg

I just happened to glance at it this evening. That lurid green stuff
doesn't leave any room for excuses about just topping up the tire.
Looks like flat #16 in 120 rides so far this year, about one per week.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

OMG! It's upside down & steel rim (if I'm not mistaken. It sure looks
like one) Double blasphemy!
Specialized's slime may or may not be better that Slime's Slime, but
it doesn't have that easy to spot fluorescence.

John

Dear John,

Thanks for a few moments of sheer insanity!

My rims are 700c Araya, the kind of aluminum hooves routinely nailed
to 14-speed 1998 Schwinn LeTours.

(I have a small stable of such beasts hanging from hooks, all
trembling in anticipation of merciless cannibalization.)

Such rims are, as I said, aluminum. Your notion was absurd. Absolutely
absurd--here, let me demonstrate with this handy rare-earth hard-drive
magnet, which will ignore the alum--

What the hell? Bad magnet! Stop that! Let go!

The damn rim playfully grabbed my magnet, or vice-versa. Not hard, but
about what I'd expect from some kind of weird stainless steel.

I descended to the Bat Cave--

Er, to Fogel Labs Storage Unit #1, and applied my magnet to five other
700c Araya rims. Nope, nothing, zilch, nada--

Oops! The fifth rim did the same thing, embracing the magnet eagerly.

Nervously, I tried the magnet against a known box-section aluminum
rim, which was sitting nearby in a truing stand. The magnet promptly
stuck to the aluminum rim, causing my knees to quiver, but then I
realized that the magnet stuck only near the steel sockets. Between
steel sockets, the powerful magnet ignored the aluminum rim.

But there are no sockets or even eyelets in my 700c Araya rims.

Back up in the garage, I tried the magnet against my current front
rim. Nothing, no attraction.

But until recently I've been using Kevlar bead tires. The rear tire in
the picture, the tire with the two staples between the green drops of
Slime, is a new kind of tire for me--it has a steel bead.

Aha! The magnet happily grabbed the tire's twin brother, which was
hanging bare with no rim from a rafter.

And the fifth rim down in the Bat Ca--

Er, the fifth rim down in Fogel Labs Storage Unit #1, the rim that
responded to the magnet, has a steel bead tire, too.

Whew! Aluminum is still not magnetic.

As for the bike being upside down, that makes it easier to check for
stickers, staples, fish hooks, and other problems that are common in
my neck of the woods. I also find it more convenient on the road when
making frequent tire repairs.

I gather, however, that there are other theories.

🙂

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Quoted message said:

My rear tire held all the way home, dropping from 120 psi to 90 psi
without me even noticing it on the smooth pavement (d'oh!), but it
looks as if I need to put in a fresh tube and patch this one:

http://i9.tinypic.com/5xsbmg1.jpg

I just happened to glance at it this evening. That lurid green stuff
doesn't leave any room for excuses about just topping up the tire.
Looks like flat #16 in 120 rides so far this year, about one per week.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

carl, i'm interested - what brands and models of tires have you tried in
your pursuit of puncture resistance?

How many of these 16 punctures have required roadside maintenance and
how long are these rides on average?
I ask because I've only had two punctures in the last 16 months
(12,800km), one due to a piece of chain link and the other due to a
glass shard after my tread had worn too thin. My current stance on
puncture resistance is to rely on tire thickness (hence my progression
from Conti Sport Contacts, to Specialized Fat Boy slicks, to Nimbus,
to Schwalbe Marathon Plus). However, if slime tubes are letting you
make it to your destination nearly all the time, I might try those
paired with lighter tires after the current ones wear out.

Carl Fogel said:

My rear tire held all the way home, dropping from 120 psi to 90 psi
without me even noticing it on the smooth pavement (d'oh!), but it
looks as if I need to put in a fresh tube and patch this one:

http://i9.tinypic.com/5xsbmg1.jpg

Quoted message said:

I just happened to glance at it this evening. That lurid green stuff
doesn't leave any room for excuses about just topping up the tire.
Looks like flat #16 in 120 rides so far this year, about one per
week.

Although I have not used Slime, I had opportunity to use something
that came along before slime, and that is milk. Years ago on my last
ride in the alps using clement tubulars, I discovered that the soft
cloth inside the tire that prevents the condom-thin latex tube from
chafing on the casing selvedge or stitching had been improperly
installed so that in time, pin holes developed requiring repeated
pumping.

On the last day of the tour, having no spare tire anymore as I
descended the Klausen Pass, I realized this was no9t working so I
stopped at a milking shed, got some rich Swiss milk and put a sh0t
into my tire with the tire pump. This stopped the leaks that were
everywhere and I finished the trip, and packed up my bicycle for the
return home.

The following week I took a bunch of riders on some rough roads, still
not having replaced the bad tire. As we got back on pavement, a
rupture in the rear tire casing gave way spraying the others with
rancid milk. That was less a problem than the butter inside the tube
that, as slime, is a good lubricant. On a straight and level road
with little crown, I slid all over the road to come to a barely
controlled stop.

If you use slime and happen to get a blowout, expect to crash.

Jobst Brandt

Carl Fogel said:

My rear tire held all the way home, dropping from 120 psi to 90 psi
without me even noticing it on the smooth pavement (d'oh!), but it
looks as if I need to put in a fresh tube and patch this one:

http://i9.tinypic.com/5xsbmg1.jpg

Quoted message said:

I just happened to glance at it this evening. That lurid green stuff
doesn't leave any room for excuses about just topping up the tire.
Looks like flat #16 in 120 rides so far this year, about one per
week.

Although I have not used Slime, I had opportunity to use something
that came along before slime, and that is milk. Years ago on my last
ride in the alps using Clement tubulars, I discovered that the soft
cloth inside the tire that prevents the condom-thin latex tube from
chafing on the casing selvedge or stitching had been improperly
installed so that in time, pin holes developed requiring repeated
pumping.

On the last day of the tour, having no spare tire anymore as I
descended the Klausen Pass, I realized this was not working so I
stopped at a milking shed, got some rich Swiss milk and put a shot
into my tire using the tire pump. This stopped the leaks that were
everywhere and I finished the trip, and packed up my bicycle for the
return home.

The following week I took a bunch of riders on some rough roads, still
not having replaced the bad tire. As we got back on pavement, a
rupture in the rear tire casing gave way, spraying the others with
rancid milk. That was less a problem than the butter inside the tube
that, as slime, is a good lubricant. On a straight and level road
with little crown, I slid all over the road to come to a barely
controlled stop.

If you use slime and happen to get a blowout, expect to crash.

Jobst Brandt

jim beam said:

Quoted message said:

My rear tire held all the way home, dropping from 120 psi to 90 psi
without me even noticing it on the smooth pavement (d'oh!), but it
looks as if I need to put in a fresh tube and patch this one:

http://i9.tinypic.com/5xsbmg1.jpg

I just happened to glance at it this evening. That lurid green stuff
doesn't leave any room for excuses about just topping up the tire.
Looks like flat #16 in 120 rides so far this year, about one per week.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

carl, i'm interested - what brands and models of tires have you tried in
your pursuit of puncture resistance?

Dear Jim,

I used cheap, heavy 27 & 1/4 inch tires back when I had such rims.
They proved vulnerable to goatheads, even with thorn-resistant thicker
tubes. Mr. Tuffy plastic liners seemed to help a little, but goatheads
still went through the sidewalls (and occasionally the plastic
strips).

When I switched to 700c, I began using Slime tubes with tires from
Performance that had Kevlar beads and belts--the Forte house brand
700cx26 didn't cost too much, I could roll a spare up in my seat bag,
and the slight extra thickness of the Kevlar belt theoretically stops
some goatheads short, while rolling better than Mr. Tuffy strips.

Alas, Performance has stopped selling the tan sidewall Kevlar bead and
belt Forte 700x26 tires, so I just started trying some alleged 700x25
Forte tires with a steel bead, a Kevlar belt, and black sidewalls.

I dislike them.

First, they're much harder to get on and off the rim, which I do more
often than some people, and won't roll up to fit in my seat bag.

Next, the damn things aren't 25 mm wide--they're closer to 22 mm. I
measured because I managed a rare impact flat on my first ride. The
pinch flat came as I turned into my driveway, so I knew that something
was wrong. After that, I pumped them up to 120 psi instead of 110 psi.
(Their sole advantage is that they pump up more quickly and easily
than my older, wider tires.)

Finally, the black sidewalls make it much harder to glance down and
back and see if the tire is going soft with a slow leak, something
that I also do more often than some people. Unlike a solid black tire,
a tan sidewall shows up nicely against the asphalt if it starts to
sag.

There are thicker tires, tougher tires, other kinds of slime, and
various plastic liners, but I'm used to a couple of flats per month.
If I want to stop the insanity, I can either take Jobst's amusing
advice (don't ride there) or else strap some MTB knobbies onto my
rims, add thorn-resistant tubes, tire liners, and some Slime, and
trundle along like the poor devils I see out in the goathead hell of
Pueblo West, where nothing else seems to work.

Since I was replacing my rear tube and had the pump in my hand, I
checked my front tire. No green Slime, but it's down 10 psi in a few
days, so it's time to replace that tube and find the tiny goathead
leak.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

tiborg said:

How many of these 16 punctures have required roadside maintenance and
how long are these rides on average?
I ask because I've only had two punctures in the last 16 months
(12,800km), one due to a piece of chain link and the other due to a
glass shard after my tread had worn too thin. My current stance on
puncture resistance is to rely on tire thickness (hence my progression
from Conti Sport Contacts, to Specialized Fat Boy slicks, to Nimbus,
to Schwalbe Marathon Plus). However, if slime tubes are letting you
make it to your destination nearly all the time, I might try those
paired with lighter tires after the current ones wear out.

Dear Tiborg,

I doubt that Slime would help when your tire is impaled with a piece
of chain link or a glass shard.

In any case, I wouldn't worry about two flats in 16 months and 12,800
km. You're obviously not riding where goathead thorns are a problem.

(Other riders can replace "goathead thorns" with rock chips, broken
glass, or metal debris, according to their local curse.)

I've had 45 flats in my last 12,800km/8,000 miles of daily 15-mile
rides, most of them from goathead thorns. I fix about half my flats
on the road.

Things are worse than the 45-flat statistic suggests. It's common to
find that the Slime tube sealed several tiny goathead thorn punctures
before suffering a fatal puncture.

Right now, I'm going to replace my front tube. It was down about 10
psi, so I expect to find a tiny goathead thorn puncture.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Quoted message said:

Carl Fogel said:

I just happened to glance at it this evening. That lurid green stuff
doesn't leave any room for excuses about just topping up the tire.
Looks like flat #16 in 120 rides so far this year, about one per
week.

The following week I took a bunch of riders on some rough roads, still
not having replaced the bad tire. As we got back on pavement, a
rupture in the rear tire casing gave way spraying the others with
rancid milk.

I'm assuming this made you very popular that day.

Quoted message said:

That was less a problem than the butter inside the tube that, as
slime, is a good lubricant. On a straight and level road with little
crown, I slid all over the road to come to a barely controlled stop.

I had less luck last week with a locked rear wheel. :-/

Quoted message said:

If you use slime and happen to get a blowout, expect to crash.

I've seen one slime blowout, the fellow was sprayed reasonably
liberally with slime, but I don't recall he had any trouble stopping.
Isn't slime rather thinner than butter, so perhaps it wouldn't be quite
as efficacious a lubricant betwixt tire and road? i.e., it would get
wiped away more quickly?

--
Dane Buson - [email hidden]
The reason that every major university maintains a department of
mathematics is that it's cheaper than institutionalizing all those people.

Quoted message said:

tiborg said:

How many of these 16 punctures have required roadside maintenance and
how long are these rides on average?
I ask because I've only had two punctures in the last 16 months
(12,800km), one due to a piece of chain link and the other due to a
glass shard after my tread had worn too thin. My current stance on
puncture resistance is to rely on tire thickness (hence my progression
from Conti Sport Contacts, to Specialized Fat Boy slicks, to Nimbus,
to Schwalbe Marathon Plus). However, if slime tubes are letting you
make it to your destination nearly all the time, I might try those
paired with lighter tires after the current ones wear out.

Dear Tiborg,

I doubt that Slime would help when your tire is impaled with a piece
of chain link or a glass shard.

In any case, I wouldn't worry about two flats in 16 months and 12,800
km. You're obviously not riding where goathead thorns are a problem.

(Other riders can replace "goathead thorns" with rock chips, broken
glass, or metal debris, according to their local curse.)

I've had 45 flats in my last 12,800km/8,000 miles of daily 15-mile
rides, most of them from goathead thorns. I fix about half my flats
on the road.

Things are worse than the 45-flat statistic suggests. It's common to
find that the Slime tube sealed several tiny goathead thorn punctures
before suffering a fatal puncture.

Right now, I'm going to replace my front tube. It was down about 10
psi, so I expect to find a tiny goathead thorn puncture.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

There was no obvious leak in the front-tire tube, not even bubbles
when I inflated the tube and dunked it in the sink.

So I pumped the tube up a little more.

Either the extra air pressure or the water unclogged the Slime-sealed
leak and revealed a pinhole puncture, almost certainly from a goathead
thorn.

Drat!

That makes 46 flats in the last 8,000 miles, about one for every 11.5
fifteen-mile rides. Babe Ruth took roughly as many at-bats to hit a
home run.

CF

Dane Buson said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I just happened to glance at it this evening. That lurid green
stuff doesn't leave any room for excuses about just topping up the
tire. Looks like flat #16 in 120 rides so far this year, about
one per week.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The following week I took a bunch of riders on some rough roads,
still not having replaced the bad tire. As we got back on
pavement, a rupture in the rear tire casing gave way spraying the
others with rancid milk.

Quoted message said:

I'm assuming this made you very popular that day.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

That was less a problem than the butter inside the tube that, as
slime, is a good lubricant. On a straight and level road with
little crown, I slid all over the road to come to a barely
controlled stop.

Quoted message said:

I had less luck last week with a locked rear wheel. :-/

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

If you use slime and happen to get a blowout, expect to crash.

Quoted message said:

I've seen one slime blowout, the fellow was sprayed reasonably
liberally with slime, but I don't recall he had any trouble
stopping. Isn't slime rather thinner than butter, so perhaps it
wouldn't be quite as efficacious a lubricant betwixt tire and road?
i.e., it would get wiped away more quickly?

It's not between tire and road that side slip occurs, but rather
between inner and outer radius of the flat tire, the inner tube filled
with a slippery goo. The tire makes contact with the road, tread
centered, with a rim that is not restrained from moving to one side or
the other (having no inflation pressure) which it does effortlessly,
sliding to a preferred side while a newly centered piece of tire
replaces the previous one allowing continuous sliding to that side.

A flat front tire with Slime would be uncontrollable. It's like
riding in dry sand, no steering capability. We have a place like that
at the Pescadero Dunes on the coast highway, where sand is blown onto
the road about 3-6inches deep, feathering to zero at its edge.
Bicyclist who don't avoid riding through this apron that is mainly
outside the lane edge stripe, generally fall because any steering
effort increases slipping more in the wrong direction, there being no
lateral traction.

Jobst Brandt

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

My rear tire held all the way home, dropping from 120 psi to 90 psi
without me even noticing it on the smooth pavement (d'oh!), but it
looks as if I need to put in a fresh tube and patch this one:
http://i9.tinypic.com/5xsbmg1.jpg
I just happened to glance at it this evening. That lurid green stuff
doesn't leave any room for excuses about just topping up the tire.
Looks like flat #16 in 120 rides so far this year, about one per week.

john said:

OMG! It's upside down & steel rim (if I'm not mistaken. It sure looks
like one) Double blasphemy!
Specialized's slime may or may not be better that Slime's Slime, but
it doesn't have that easy to spot fluorescence.

Steel?
Looks aluminum to me. Carl?

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Mon, 04 Jun 2007 18:11:49 -0500, A Muzi <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

My rear tire held all the way home, dropping from 120 psi to 90 psi
without me even noticing it on the smooth pavement (d'oh!), but it
looks as if I need to put in a fresh tube and patch this one:
http://i9.tinypic.com/5xsbmg1.jpg
I just happened to glance at it this evening. That lurid green stuff
doesn't leave any room for excuses about just topping up the tire.
Looks like flat #16 in 120 rides so far this year, about one per week.

john said:

OMG! It's upside down & steel rim (if I'm not mistaken. It sure looks
like one) Double blasphemy!
Specialized's slime may or may not be better that Slime's Slime, but
it doesn't have that easy to spot fluorescence.

Steel?
Looks aluminum to me. Carl?

Dear Andrew,

Lurid details:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/msg/e6de6eaf37a71be9

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

WELL, as i wrote several times: a slime tube is used with a slime
liner.
ONLY with a slime liner not without a slime liner.
IN other words, using a slime tube butt not a slime liner, iza
subjective, objective loser: think film! the film 'is the thing' (we
can do it!)
SO CALLED intelligent life running a hi flat percentage are doin'
sumpthin wrong here in 2007.
WE changed to 'throne' proof Specialized 'tube' and Conti Security
running over mostly imported ale glass with a few Pinot 'throne' in
from Wal and Nashbar slimers mitt liner and Conti TT
finding the Spec tubes, the throne proof as the spec slimer (rear only
for rack weight) goes untested under the kitchen sink awaiting the
planned Yemeni trekk, are ace one plus (AOP) competely outgoing the
Wal/Nashbar by .5 Parsec.
andnooooo liner!

ALSO, as the impressionable may read this BS due 2 the awegust lineup,
we switched to CRC HD silcone sprayed liberally on tube and inside
tire, outside tire wall for bead lube, inside rim for bead lube, then
after mounting, FL teflon with wax at the bead which is then covered
with brake prep, CRC Rubber conditioner on rim braking surface and
pads.
Noooooooooooooooooo flats. Nada.
you may moan and niggle: "how can I be a mitty GP rider running the
TdF shod with Conti TT and Security F/R?"
well, that's your problem.

Quoted message said:

Carl Fogel said:

My rear tire held all the way home, dropping from 120 psi to 90 psi
without me even noticing it on the smooth pavement (d'oh!), but it
looks as if I need to put in a fresh tube and patch this one:

http://i9.tinypic.com/5xsbmg1.jpg

Quoted message said:

I just happened to glance at it this evening. That lurid green stuff
doesn't leave any room for excuses about just topping up the tire.
Looks like flat #16 in 120 rides so far this year, about one per
week.

Although I have not used Slime, I had opportunity to use something
that came along before slime, and that is milk. Years ago on my last
ride in the alps using Clement tubulars, I discovered that the soft
cloth inside the tire that prevents the condom-thin latex tube from
chafing on the casing selvedge or stitching had been improperly
installed so that in time, pin holes developed requiring repeated
pumping.

On the last day of the tour, having no spare tire anymore as I
descended the Klausen Pass, I realized this was not working so I
stopped at a milking shed, got some rich Swiss milk and put a shot
into my tire using the tire pump. This stopped the leaks that were
everywhere and I finished the trip, and packed up my bicycle for the
return home.

The following week I took a bunch of riders on some rough roads, still
not having replaced the bad tire. As we got back on pavement, a
rupture in the rear tire casing gave way, spraying the others with
rancid milk. That was less a problem than the butter inside the tube
that, as slime, is a good lubricant. On a straight and level road
with little crown, I slid all over the road to come to a barely
controlled stop.

If you use slime and happen to get a blowout, expect to crash.

ok, let's distill this a little:

"Although I have not used Slime, ... [blah] ... If you use slime and
happen to get a blowout, expect to crash."

why you can't just /resist/ pontificating on subjects on which you have
no direct experience, and defer to those that do?

Quoted message said:

Dane Buson said:

Quoted message said:

> I just happened to glance at it this evening. That lurid green
> stuff doesn't leave any room for excuses about just topping up the
> tire. Looks like flat #16 in 120 rides so far this year, about
> one per week.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The following week I took a bunch of riders on some rough roads,
still not having replaced the bad tire. As we got back on
pavement, a rupture in the rear tire casing gave way spraying the
others with rancid milk.

Quoted message said:

I'm assuming this made you very popular that day.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

That was less a problem than the butter inside the tube that, as
slime, is a good lubricant. On a straight and level road with
little crown, I slid all over the road to come to a barely
controlled stop.

Quoted message said:

I had less luck last week with a locked rear wheel. :-/

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

If you use slime and happen to get a blowout, expect to crash.

Quoted message said:

I've seen one slime blowout, the fellow was sprayed reasonably
liberally with slime, but I don't recall he had any trouble
stopping. Isn't slime rather thinner than butter, so perhaps it
wouldn't be quite as efficacious a lubricant betwixt tire and road?
i.e., it would get wiped away more quickly?

It's not between tire and road that side slip occurs, but rather
between inner and outer radius of the flat tire, the inner tube filled
with a slippery goo. The tire makes contact with the road, tread
centered, with a rim that is not restrained from moving to one side or
the other (having no inflation pressure) which it does effortlessly,
sliding to a preferred side while a newly centered piece of tire
replaces the previous one allowing continuous sliding to that side.

A flat front tire with Slime would be uncontrollable.

"would be"? "would be"??? jobst, imagine for a moment that there's a
factor which you have not considered [sic] in this pontification. then
you "would be" talking out of your ass.

Quoted message said:

It's like
riding in dry sand, no steering capability. We have a place like that
at the Pescadero Dunes on the coast highway, where sand is blown onto
the road about 3-6inches deep, feathering to zero at its edge.
Bicyclist who don't avoid riding through this apron that is mainly
outside the lane edge stripe, generally fall because any steering
effort increases slipping more in the wrong direction, there being no
lateral traction.

Jobst Brandt

Quoted message said:

Dane Buson said:

I've seen one slime blowout, the fellow was sprayed reasonably
liberally with slime, but I don't recall he had any trouble
stopping. Isn't slime rather thinner than butter, so perhaps it
wouldn't be quite as efficacious a lubricant betwixt tire and road?
i.e., it would get wiped away more quickly?

It's not between tire and road that side slip occurs, but rather
between inner and outer radius of the flat tire, the inner tube filled
with a slippery goo. The tire makes contact with the road, tread
centered, with a rim that is not restrained from moving to one side or
the other (having no inflation pressure) which it does effortlessly,
sliding to a preferred side while a newly centered piece of tire
replaces the previous one allowing continuous sliding to that side.

Ah, okay, that makes more sense. Thanks for explaining.

--
Dane Buson - [email hidden]
"Remember kids, don't do crack, it's a ghetto drug"
- Bob Roberts