Small lange vs. large flange hubs

You are overlooking the rims. Todays rims are heat treated, heavier,
mostly aero shaped. All make the rims & wheels stiffer. The older
rims were soft and needed more spokes to support them. So are todays
wheels any better? I'd say not really. The main result is fewer and
way tigher spokes. I'm fixing as many broken spokes as before. Plus
now you have these designer wheels that require special spokes or tools
that you may have to wait to be ordered in before your wheel gets fixed.

Bob said:

Now though we have small flange and low spoke counts -
which would result in a comparatively flexible wheel, I would think.

Not a bad thing. 😄

Quoted message said:

Comments? How come no one wants high flange anymore ?

You still see them on fixies.

I doubt it really makes a difference either way, and it's just fashion
(for the most part), but I predict being corrected within 20 minutes...

:P

Bob said:

OK... fill me on philosophy on this. Back in the good old days, we
all rode large flange...

....and wore bell bottoms.

I predict that bell bottoms and large flange hubs will both come back
into fashion simultaneously, probably within the next ten years.

Sheldon "Slave Of Fashion" Brown
Newtonville, Massachusetts
+-----------------------------------+
| Fashion exists for those people |
| who have no style of their own. |
| --John Moore |
+-----------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

On Tue, 09 Aug 2005 15:46:51 -0400, Sheldon Brown <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Bob said:

OK... fill me on philosophy on this. Back in the good old days, we
all rode large flange...

...and wore bell bottoms.

I predict that bell bottoms and large flange hubs will both come back
into fashion simultaneously, probably within the next ten years.

Sheldon "Slave Of Fashion" Brown

The bell bottoms are already here.

Damn we're old.

Ron

Quoted message said:

Newtonville, Massachusetts
+-----------------------------------+
| Fashion exists for those people |
| who have no style of their own. |
| --John Moore |
+-----------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

Bob said:

OK... fill me on philosophy on this. Back in the good old days, we
all rode large flange. The theory I always heard was that large
flange had shorter spokes and therefore resulted in a stiffer wheel.
Supposedly that was a good thing. Now though we have small flange
and low spoke counts - which would result in a comparatively
flexible wheel, I would think.

Comments? How come no one wants high flange anymore ?

Bob

Dear Bob,

"Common large-flange hubs spoked tangentially are about
twice as stiff torsionally as common low-flange hubs. Such
low flange hubs require about twenty meter-kilograms (mkg)
per degree of hub wind-up. This means that the average
rider, using a two-to-one chain ration and 170 mm cranks,
would have ot press on the pedals with 250kg to wind-up a
small-flange hube one degree, or about 520kg (more than half
a ton) for a large-flange hub."

"It is evident from this comparison that small-flange hubs
prodve adequate torsional strength and stiffness. There is
no need to use large-flange hubs for greater torsional
stiffness, but their reduction of torque-induced spoke loads
might improve fatigue life slightly. However, with larger
flanges the spoke angle at the rim becomes less
perpendicular causing spokes to bend at the nipple. This
bend increases failures at the threads and probably cancels
any gains from reduced torque loads. To avoid this problem,
large-flange hubs are often spoked in a less than fully
tangential pattern."

"The Bicycle Wheel", 2nd edition, Jobst Brandt, p.64-5

" . . . using large flange hubs provides no functional
advantage and has the disadvantage of adding weight."

"Tandem bicycles are an exception. With 36 spokes or less,
tandem wheels require large-flange hubs to withstand the
torque of two riders. And to support the additional weight,
durable tandem wheels require at least 48 spokes, which can
only be accomodated by larger flanges."

--p.64

Carl Fogel

On 8/9/2005 11:50 AM said:

You are overlooking the rims. Todays rims are heat treated, heavier,
mostly aero shaped. All make the rims & wheels stiffer. The older
rims were soft and needed more spokes to support them. So are todays
wheels any better? I'd say not really. The main result is fewer and
way tigher spokes. I'm fixing as many broken spokes as before. Plus
now you have these designer wheels that require special spokes or tools
that you may have to wait to be ordered in before your wheel gets fixed.

Yeah, hey -- what's up with that? My wife entered into her very first
triathlon last month (came in dead last but for a 52 year-old
grandmother, she did pretty good). As the household handyman and
resident bike mechanic guy I gave her Specialized road bike (an Allez
Vita with Alexrims AT400 wheels, some kinda fancy black spokes) a good
going over. I went to do a smidge of wheel truing . . . and those
nipples were darn tight. The spoke wanted to turn with them. I applied a
bit of force, but the threads never slipped on the spokes. So I stopped
and reconsidered doing any truing at that time. I reckoned I'd ask
around at a later date. This is a later date, and hoping not to hijack
this thread . . . what's the scoop on working on these tight spokes?

--

Mike "Rocket J Squirrel" Elliott
71 Type 2: the Wonderbus
84 Westfalia: Mellow Yellow ("The Electrical Banana"😉
KG6RCR

Bob said:

OK... fill me on philosophy on this. Back in the good old days, we
all rode large flange. The theory I always heard was that large
flange had shorter spokes and therefore resulted in a stiffer wheel.
Supposedly that was a good thing. Now though we have small flange
and low spoke counts - which would result in a comparatively
flexible wheel, I would think.

Comments? How come no one wants high flange anymore ?

Bob

More torsional stiffness and more lateral stiffness are results of using larger diameter hub flanges (with Flange width spacing held constant). If you need/want them, then larger diameter hub flanges are useful.
Look what most track and single speed riders are using.
I like the feel of a laterally stiff wheel when I am riding a fully loaded touring bicycle with front paniers.
David Ornee - Western Springs, IL

Mike Rocket J. Squirrel Elliott said:

what's the scoop on
working on these tight spokes?

Lube the nipples before attempting to true. I use whatever penetrating
lube I've got handy. Let sit for a minute or two to do its thing. Voila.

Michael Elliott said:

Yeah, hey -- what's up with that? My wife entered into her very
first triathlon last month (came in dead last but for a 52 year-old
grandmother, she did pretty good). As the household handyman and
resident bike mechanic guy I gave her Specialized road bike (an
Allez Vita with Alexrims AT400 wheels, some kinda fancy black
spokes) a good going over. I went to do a smidge of wheel truing
... and those nipples were darn tight. The spoke wanted to turn
with them. I applied a bit of force, but the threads never slipped
on the spokes. So I stopped and reconsidered doing any truing at
that time. I reckoned I'd ask around at a later date. This is a
later date, and hoping not to hijack this thread ... what's the
scoop on working on these tight spokes?

30W motor oil is a good start. Put a drop on every spoke nipple where
it protrudes from the rim. You can feel it act if you rotate the
spoke nipple back and forth a small amount. It will suddenly turn
easily. Second, put a drop of oil on each spoke nipple where the
spoke enters. This will suck into the threads by capillary action and
allow turning the thread under load.

If at first a lubricated spoke nipple does not turn on the spoke
thread, pull the rim toward the side from which the spoke approaches
the rim (this slackens the spoke) and try twisting it fore and aft.

Finally, stay away from these wheels, they don't make a hill of beans
difference except for psychosomatics for less than >25mph time
trialers... but they cost an arm and a leg and are constant
maintenance mongers. If you break a spoke on the road, have a cell
phone! You're nor going to ride that wheel home as you would a 36
spoke wheel.

Jobst Brandt

Sheldon Brown said:

Bob said:

OK... fill me on philosophy on this. Back in the good old days, we
all rode large flange...

...and wore bell bottoms.

I predict that bell bottoms and large flange hubs will both come back
into fashion simultaneously, probably within the next ten years.

Sheldon "Slave" Brown

High-flange hubs have come back on many hubs meant for disc brakes,
such as: http://www.whiteind.com/rx-hubset.htm . I'd still like to find
a set of the Shimano 600EX high-flange cassette hubs as seen here:
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/shimano1982/pages/24.html
but only because I'm a weird bike parts freak.

Jeff "But not bell bottoms- that's super-freaky." Wills

On 8/9/2005 8:39 PM maxo said:

Mike Rocket J. Squirrel Elliott said:

what's the scoop on
working on these tight spokes?

Lube the nipples before attempting to true. I use whatever penetrating
lube I've got handy. Let sit for a minute or two to do its thing. Voila.

Maxo and Jobst, thanks.

One other question: are nipples coming in in exciting new sizes? It
seems that neither my black nor my green spoke wrench is a real good fit
for the nipples on her bike.

--

Mike "Rocket J Squirrel" Elliott
71 Type 2: the Wonderbus
84 Westfalia: Mellow Yellow ("The Electrical Banana"😉
KG6RCR

shimano hubs tend to maintain the same hub diameters-most shim hubs, i
write most caws i'm not LBS, are poured from the same mold then
machined differently.
so if you have hub#1 and it wears out, and hub #2 is on sale or at the
market then spokes for #1 will go on #2!!
this cuts down on recaps for the molars

On Wed, 10 Aug 2005 10:03:07 -0700, "Mike Rocket J. Squirrel
Elliott" <[email hidden]>
wrote:

[snip]

Quoted message said:

One other question: are nipples coming in in exciting new sizes? It
seems that neither my black nor my green spoke wrench is a real good fit
for the nipples on her bike.

Dear Mike,

Spokes come in at least four colors--er, sizes:

SW-0 (Black handle) 3.22mm /80 ga./.127 nipple
SW-1 (Green handle) 3.3mm /80 ga./.130 nipple
SW-2 (Red handle) 3.45mm /80 ga./.136 nipple
SW-3 (Blue handle) 3.96mm /105 ga./.156 nipple

http://www.parktool.com/tools/SW_1.shtml

Carl Fogel

try linseed oil on the spoke threads. durable. rustproofing. water
resistant possibbble
proof and gives some twists out resistance not much but some whereas
oil....

Mike Elliott said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

what's the scoop on working on these tight spokes?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Lube the nipples before attempting to true. I use whatever
penetrating lube I've got handy. Let sit for a minute or two to do
its thing. Voila.

Quoted message said:

Maxo and Jobst, thanks.

Quoted message said:

One other question: are nipples coming in in exciting new sizes? It
seems that neither my black nor my green spoke wrench is a real good
fit for the nipples on her bike.

I guess I don't get enough "new" wheels, but my VAR steel slot jawed
spoke wrench fits closely and can twist off any spoke you like (when
tight enough). The wheels that I work on are not 16-spokes or Kevlar
spoked. The reason for spoke wrenches with four corners is that the
guys who make them never noticed that when they rounded spoke nipples
it was because they weren't lubricated... so more force to the rescue!

Slot jawed spoke wrenches have sufficed for years but then no one
seems to be passing along the tricks of the trade and those in the
business don't seem to read, there, where this information is
available.

Jobst Brandt

On 8/10/2005 10:18 AM said:

On Wed, 10 Aug 2005 10:03:07 -0700, "Mike Rocket J. Squirrel
Elliott" <[email hidden]>
wrote:

[snip]

Quoted message said:

One other question: are nipples coming in in exciting new sizes? It
seems that neither my black nor my green spoke wrench is a real good fit
for the nipples on her bike.

Dear Mike,

Spokes come in at least four colors--er, sizes:

SW-0 (Black handle) 3.22mm /80 ga./.127 nipple
SW-1 (Green handle) 3.3mm /80 ga./.130 nipple
SW-2 (Red handle) 3.45mm /80 ga./.136 nipple
SW-3 (Blue handle) 3.96mm /105 ga./.156 nipple

Er . . . I meant neither my green nor my RED tool liked these nipples
very much. They mike at .135'', so that makes them "red flavored." I
reckon it was the softness of the nipple combined with the amazing
tightness of the spokes that gives me the feeling that I am going to
round the nipple.

--

Mike "Rocket J Squirrel" Elliott
71 Type 2: the Wonderbus
84 Westfalia: Mellow Yellow ("The Electrical Banana"😉
KG6RCR

"Mike Rocket J. Squirrel Elliott"
<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Lube the nipples before attempting...

Always a good idea 🙂

Lee