So Tell Me About the Dark Side...

Artemisia said:

Bored over this past weekend, I started googling on recumbents, and
became fascinated by some folding recumbent trikes, made by ICE.

As have most of us.

Quoted message said:

So I want to know what's wrong with them (apart from cost and weight, of
course).

For me it is the cost factor and space. I would have to rearrange sheds
and stuff in order to find space.

Quoted message said:

I'm puzzled by these handlebars under the seat. How do you turn
a recumbent trike? Do you fall out at every bend (I heard of someone in
Cambridge who did, though that was an upright trike)?

Upright trikes can be less stable in sharp turns. Recumbents have a much
lower centre of gravity and shouldn't turn over in normal use.

Quoted message said:

The use that most draws me would be for long distance touring, but for
that, the contraption would have to be portable and planeable.

The ICE stuff (and some others) can be folded so it should be easy to
fold it for the plane journey (or a train/car journey). The folded package
isn't as compact and definitely not as light as a folding bike so isn't
really suitable for commuting but I would guess it is absolutely fine
for travelling to the start of a tour.

--
Andy Leighton => [email hidden]
"The Lord is my shepherd, but we still lost the sheep dog trials"
- Robert Rankin, _They Came And Ate Us_

Artemisia said:

Bored over this past weekend, I started googling on recumbents, and
became fascinated by some folding recumbent trikes, made by ICE.

It seems really cool to be able to watch the world go by from what looks
like a deck chair! And always to have a comfortable seat on one's
travels. But still to be getting exercise, and my abdos sure could use
some firming.

It is worth noting that deckchairs come in at different heights and this
will affect one's ability to watch the world go by, as you go by the
world. The ICE trikes are relatively low compared to most recumbnet
bikes, for example. This is far from being a general deal-breaker, but
it is worth taking into account.

Quoted message said:

And then there's all that stability, think of actually being able to
look behind me or take my hands off handlebars to signal!

There's nothing intrinsic to recumbents concerning stability. A Trice
gets stability from 3 wheels, and you don't need to go 'bent to get
that. And since I've watched Roos cycle along quite happily on her
hybrid not only with no hands on the bars but taking a jacket off and
tying it around her waist, I know it's also the case that 3 wheels
aren't necessary for this either! In fact I think most trikes require
more handlebar input than many 2 wheel uprights.

Quoted message said:

And I like the terminology. "Bent" suits me fine, as does "Dark Side".

Never mind that, the red light sabres are the cool bit! ;-)

Quoted message said:

So I want to know what's wrong with them (apart from cost and weight, of
course). I'm puzzled by these handlebars under the seat.
How do you turn a recumbent trike?

Same way you turn any other trike... using the steering! Nothing
puzzling about bars under the seat, they've got to go somewhere...

Quoted message said:

Do you fall out at every bend (I heard of someone in
Cambridge who did, though that was an upright trike)?

It's /possible/ (if you try!) but unlikely. A "tadpole" configuration
like a Trice works against this, as does the low centre of mass, but you
can make sure by simply leaning into the bend, just like on a bike. The
trick is remembering that leaning has no steering effect on its own!

Quoted message said:

Is it very hard to get up hills? I live in a hilly district.

Depends on the gearing. On a trike you can have stupidly low gearing
that will let you get up practically anything you can maintain traction
on. Just make sure you specify low gearing. ICE are based in a
particularly hilly bit of the West Country, so it makes sense that their
products will "do" hills!

Quoted message said:

Can they get through doors or between bollards?

Depends on the particular door or bollards... Note that ICE do various
different track widths, and the narrow track models will have fewer
problems with this. To start with, measure any you know you'll want to
get by regularly and compare to the track width. NT models will be
slightly less stable in fast cornering, but if you lean they should
still be okay.

Quoted message said:

I'm not that much of a speed freak, so the fact that all the speed
records for human powered vehicles are held by faired bents is not of
immediate concern. I'm more afraid of not being able to control the
vehicle beyond a certain speed. But then it seems they are easier to brake?

Just ram on the anchors. You'll have to try /really/ hard to go over
the bars... There isn't any particular issue with either trikes or
'bents for speed handling as long as they're decently implemented, and
by all accounts I've come across Tricen are.

Quoted message said:

Maintenance could be a hassle. I've never seen a bent in France. My
colleague tells me she has only ever seen them under circus clowns.

IME clowns prefer unicycles or tall bikes.

But for the most part maintenance is really quite standard. The
non-standard bits are the frame and the seat, and they don't really need
any to speak of. Brakes and transmission are standard items, and any
bike shop should be able to deal with them if you prefer not to do it
yourself.

Quoted message said:

The use that most draws me would be for long distance touring, but for
that, the contraption would have to be portable and planeable. I
discovered, when touring with Flyzipper, that I give up after about 35km
not so much because I am tired, as because I start getting sore at seat
and wrist. They say this doesn't happen on bents. On a more daily basis,
it is probably less practical than my beloved bike for local commuting?

Probably... I use a Brompton folder as my general hack bike because it
has a lot of convenience points over my 'bent.
For porting it, a trike is /generally/ worse than a bike as there's more
of it, but the folding models from ICE and Greenspeed should fit in a
case. Weight limits will be your main enemy, I'd think. And you'll
probably need to do a bit of reassembly and minor mechanical tweaking to
put them back into road-shape. If you're not happy with a spanner, or
meeting someone who is, that could be a problem.

Quoted message said:

I'd be keen to try such a machine and see how it feels. I doubt that
would be possible here, but is there somewhere in the Southern UK where
I might come for a test ride? I'd particularly like to be able to rent
one for a while to see about how liveable it is all around.

See http://www.ice.hpv.co.uk/contact_dealers.htm for Trice dealers,
several in the S (or south-ish) of England. (There is one French dealer
in there).

Quoted message said:

Finally, what are people's opinions here of what constitutes essentials
as well as nec plus ultra luxuries in a bent trike? What are dream
machines in this category? Mine would have to have a good rack system
for luggage, be easily foldable, have very reliable brakes, why not
hydraulic discs, have a good gear range and easy shifting, perhaps a
Rohloff, perhaps have modular electric assist that can be added or
subtracted as needs develop or disappear...

All of those should be possible on a Trice. For the electric side of it
Kinetics (kinetics.org.uk) might be worth getting in touch with, as Ben
does both Tricen and Heinzman motors.

The dream machine is perhaps the ultra-light custom Trice they have as
an R&D project. If it was in production it would be bonkers expensive.
Beyond that, it would depend on your particular dream (Monster!
Monster! Monster! ;-)), and Trice probably have something to suit yours.

Also look at Greenspeeds, noting the dealership at http://www.wrhpv.com/

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Peter Clinch said:

The dream machine is perhaps the ultra-light custom Trice they have as
an R&D project. If it was in production it would be bonkers expensive.

They'd sell you the prototype for a minimum of 10K and still make a
loss.. I saw it at the York Rallye last year (with Mr Senior of this
parish). Probably not EFR's cup of tea as it is very very low (and
supposedly very very fast). However, you can pick it up and put it on a
car roof rack with one hand.. And this is a fully sdjustable
dismantleable trice. If they made it to fit it could be a kilo
lighter..

...d

Peter Clinch said:

Artemisia wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I'd be keen to try such a machine and see how it feels. I doubt that
would be possible here, but is there somewhere in the Southern UK where
I might come for a test ride? I'd particularly like to be able to rent
one for a while to see about how liveable it is all around.

See http://www.ice.hpv.co.uk/contact_dealers.htm for Trice dealers,
several in the S (or south-ish) of England. (There is one French dealer
in there).

The dealers in Holland and London or Forest Row in the UK will be
closer to Paris than Montpellier though :-(
--
Phil Cook looking north over the park to the "Westminster Gasworks"

In article <[email hidden]>, David

Martin () said:

Peter Clinch said:

The dream machine is perhaps the ultra-light custom Trice they have as
an R&D project. If it was in production it would be bonkers expensive.

They'd sell you the prototype for a minimum of 10K and still make a
loss.. I saw it at the York Rallye last year (with Mr Senior of this
parish). Probably not EFR's cup of tea as it is very very low (and
supposedly very very fast). However, you can pick it up and put it on a
car roof rack with one hand.. And this is a fully sdjustable
dismantleable trice. If they made it to fit it could be a kilo
lighter..

I was contemplating asking to borrow it for the French Ride next year,
but I suspect that I'd break it before reaching Brest...

--
Dave Larrington - <http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk/>
und keine Eie.

Dave Larrington said:

I was contemplating asking to borrow it for the French Ride next year,
but I suspect that I'd break it before reaching Brest...

You're too big for such delicate equipment obviously. Wonder if they'd
lend it to moi? I hardly ever break very much.

--
Dave...

In article said:

Artemisia said:

I'm puzzled by these handlebars under the seat. How do you turn
a recumbent trike? Do you fall out at every bend (I heard of someone in
Cambridge who did, though that was an upright trike)?

Upright trikes can be less stable in sharp turns. Recumbents have a much
lower centre of gravity and shouldn't turn over in normal use.

Upright trikes are notorious for confusing bicyclists, because they
feel very similar to start with, but steer in a completely different way,
so the poor cyclist is desperately trying to get the trike to lean over
to turn, and it doesn't.
At least so I've read - I haven't seen it happen, or tried an upright myself.

A recumbent trike feels different, and the same problem doesn't seem to
happen. (I have tried recumbent trikes, and seen other people doing so
for the first time with no trouble.)

Artemisia said:

Bored over this past weekend, I started googling on recumbents, and
became fascinated by some folding recumbent trikes, made by ICE.

A good answer already from Pete Clinch who knows an awful lot about
'bents. You'd have to think very carefully about the undoubted
drawbacks, but if these are not show-stoppers I would have thought a
tadpole trike recumbent would make a lot of sense for someone who a)
has balance problems with two wheels, b) gets pain and discomfort on an
upright, and c) is not afraid of being stared at. Sound like anyone you
know?

As to the legal situation, I think you need to check that out locally.
But trikes have certainly been ridden in the Paris - Brest - Paris. For
the electric option I think Pete's idea of talking to Darth Ben at
Kinetics is a good one at least for a starting point, although his shop
is probably one of the worst options for you from a purely geographical
point of view.

I've only had a brief ride on a Trice, which was configured for someone
much taller than me, but I found it extremely stable and very easy to
steer, and it had impressive stopping power too.

--
Dave...

In uk.rec.cycling Artemisia twisted the electrons to say:

Quoted message said:

Bored over this past weekend, I started googling on recumbents, and
became fascinated by some folding recumbent trikes, made by ICE.

As has been said by others, you're not alone in this! I gave some
*serious* consideration to getting either a Trice-QNT or Trice-S earlier
this year, but ended up getting a two-wheeled recumbent (Grasshopper)
instead. Not entirely sure whether that was the best decision yet, but
it seems to be working out for me ... of course, if I'd bought a trike
I'd probably be wondering exactly the same thing at this point!

Quoted message said:

I'm puzzled by these handlebars under the seat. How do you turn a
recumbent trike?

Underseat steering can limit how tight you can turn, however unless you
make a habit of turning round on narrow roads it shouldn't be a problem.

Quoted message said:

Do you fall out at every bend (I heard of someone in Cambridge who did,
though that was an upright trike)?

I had a go on a whole bunch of last years (so no rear suspension and
non-foldable) models at the York Cycle Rally last year. I managed to get
a Trice Monster up on two wheels (on purpose I'll concede, I deliberately
leaned slightly the wrong way in a turn!) at about 15mph but it didn't
seem in anyway scary -> just more a case of thinking "hmm, the inside
wheel's lifting ... I'd better lean into the corner a bit".
--
These opinions might not even be mine ...
Let alone connected with my employer ...

"Artemisia" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Bored over this past weekend, I started googling on recumbents, and became
fascinated by some folding recumbent trikes, made by ICE.

Ah yes, the Dark Side is calling to you. Resistance is futile.
I have an IceT, albeit it not the folding one. Saying that, it has been
transported in the back of Herman the German (Merc A-class)

Quoted message said:

It seems really cool to be able to watch the world go by from what looks
like a deck chair! And always to have a comfortable seat on one's travels.
But still to be getting exercise, and my abdos sure could use some
firming.

I do refer to Mr Norbert Frosty as my mobile deck chair.

Quoted message said:

And then there's all that stability, think of actually being able to look
behind me or take my hands off handlebars to signal!

And I like the terminology. "Bent" suits me fine, as does "Dark Side".

The Dark Side is definitely calling...

Quoted message said:

So I want to know what's wrong with them (apart from cost and weight, of
course). I'm puzzled by these handlebars under the seat. How do you turn a
recumbent trike? Do you fall out at every bend (I heard of someone in
Cambridge who did, though that was an upright trike)?

My Ice T is incredibly stable round corners. The low centre of gravity makes
cornering fun - you can pedal into and accerlate round corners. Small
turning circle too. The sterring is very, very light - I can steer Mr
Norbert Frosty with one finger of one hand.

Quoted message said:

Is it very hard to get up hills? I live in a hilly district. Can they get
through doors or between bollards?

Slower but easier to get up hills than on my uprights. Slower as it's
heavier. Easier because you can't pedal so slowly that you fall off...

I can get mine through 'normal' doorways but bollards - depends on spacing.

Quoted message said:

I'm not that much of a speed freak, so the fact that all the speed records
for human powered vehicles are held by faired bents is not of immediate
concern. I'm more afraid of not being able to control the vehicle beyond a
certain speed. But then it seems they are easier to brake?

Braking is a doddle - Norbert has drum brakes on the front wheels - very
smooth, very sure braking.

Quoted message said:

Maintenance could be a hassle. I've never seen a bent in France. My
colleague tells me she has only ever seen them under circus clowns.

Very little maintenance. Norbert is just kept clean. No hassle. Your
colleague's prejudice is showing ;-)

Quoted message said:

I'm divided on the image issue. I have a reputation as a nut-case which
I'm keen to keep up, but France is a nation very hostile to script
breakers and I'm limit as it is with my Childfreedom. A bent on a _French_
road might get more attention than I really want. Besides which, it might
even interest the police - it seems the status of tricycles is ambiguous
here and according to some opinions they are not allowed on roads.
Moreover, some of those bents really do look uncomfortably like
wheel-chairs, and my superstitious side would feel it unlucky to send out
a signal of being disabled.

I've stopped the traffic in Dereham, had fingers pointed at me...

As for unlucky - I get more room given to me by motorists when I'm on my
'bent than when on any of my 'normal' bikes.

Quoted message said:

The use that most draws me would be for long distance touring, but for
that, the contraption would have to be portable and planeable. I
discovered, when touring with Flyzipper, that I give up after about 35km
not so much because I am tired, as because I start getting sore at seat
and wrist. They say this doesn't happen on bents. On a more daily basis,
it is probably less practical than my beloved bike for local commuting?
Although I do like the idea of being able to sit out the traffic lights,
sunning myself or reading Trollope.

Norbert is very easy on my wrists. I haven't taken Norbert on a plane. I'm
reluctant to take any of my steeds on aircraft.

Practicality...

Well... if I had to get rid of my stable and keep only one steed... let's
see

Road bike
Tourer
Hybrid
'bent trike

I'd keep the bent. Seriously. Even though I'm slower on the 'bent - I'd keep
it. Why? In winter it's much more stable on slippy roads. You can't fall off
it going uphill. If you want you can stop - put on the parking brake & take
a breather.

You do *need* clipless pedals though. Feet need to be firmly attached to
pedals. However, you don't have to unclip before stopping to prevent you
falling off.

Quoted message said:

I'd be keen to try such a machine and see how it feels. I doubt that would
be possible here, but is there somewhere in the Southern UK where I might
come for a test ride? I'd particularly like to be able to rent one for a
while to see about how liveable it is all around.

If you come to Norfolk you are welcome to give Mr Norbert Frosty a go.

Quoted message said:

Finally, what are people's opinions here of what constitutes essentials as
well as nec plus ultra luxuries in a bent trike? What are dream machines
in this category? Mine would have to have a good rack system for luggage,
be easily foldable, have very reliable brakes, why not hydraulic discs,
have a good gear range and easy shifting, perhaps a Rohloff, perhaps have
modular electric assist that can be added or subtracted as needs develop
or disappear...

Norbert came with a rack. Reliable brakes included too. Plenty of gears (24
last time I looked on Norbert, which is entirely sufficent). The only extras
I've added is I've put a Minoura Space Bar on the front to carry two front
lights and I've got various rear lights dotted about. Ice T currently £1599
which is roughly 2300 Euros.

Quoted message said:

At the moment I'm only dreaming, so I'm not even thinking about price. I
suppose up to about $5000, but too much more would cost me the sacrifice
of too many vacations.

Not as expensive as you think...

Quoted message said:

EFR
Ile de France

Cheers, helen s

In article said:

Quoted message said:

Finally, what are people's opinions here of what constitutes essentials
as well as nec plus ultra luxuries in a bent trike? What are dream
machines in this category? Mine would have to have a good rack system
for luggage, be easily foldable, have very reliable brakes, why not
hydraulic discs, have a good gear range and easy shifting, perhaps a
Rohloff, perhaps have modular electric assist that can be added or
subtracted as needs develop or disappear...

All of those should be possible on a Trice. For the electric side of it
Kinetics (kinetics.org.uk) might be worth getting in touch with, as Ben
does both Tricen and Heinzman motors.

Fitting both a Heinzmann hub motor and a Rohloff onto the same trike is
going to be tricky though. Not impossible, but adding something like
a G-Boxx-like mid-drive is going to be expensive even by Rohloff equipped
trike standards. Having a non-hub motor is probably a better bet, but still
non-trivial to add.

(On a bike you could just put the motor in the front wheel.)

Alan Braggins said:

A recumbent trike feels different, and the same problem doesn't seem to
happen. (I have tried recumbent trikes, and seen other people doing so
for the first time with no trouble.)

I've not tried an upright trike since I was... *much* younger. The rest
of my family tried one at Centre Parcs that a pal had rented and
couldn't do it at all, for the reasons given.

I've found on my brief acquaintance with 'bent trikes that there are
differences, but not hugely problematical ones. On a heavily cambered
road I found having to actively steer to go straight ahead /very/ odd at
first, but I soon got use to it (effect enhanced by the transmission
setup on a Kettwiesel delta).

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Alistair Gunn said:

I had a go on a whole bunch of last years (so no rear suspension and
non-foldable) models at the York Cycle Rally last year. I managed to get
a Trice Monster up on two wheels (on purpose I'll concede, I deliberately
leaned slightly the wrong way in a turn!) at about 15mph but it didn't
seem in anyway scary -> just more a case of thinking "hmm, the inside
wheel's lifting ... I'd better lean into the corner a bit".

I hade a go on the various trice - very easy to lift a wheel with the
right technique on the Q, S and T. A dash of speed and rhythmic
steering at the right frequency will happily 'walk' the two front
wheels alternately. Nowhere near tipping though. the.Mark does a good
two wheel thing on his windcheetah.

...d

Response to David Martin:

Quoted message said:

Nowhere near tipping though. the.Mark does a good
two wheel thing on his windcheetah.

There's a downhill turn on my commute where, when I'm coming home in the
small hours and there's nobody about, I'll happily lift a wheel in a fun
kind of way (though it wasn't fun the first time I did it).

I've only ever actually tipped the trike when deliberately travelling
downhill and sideways on ice.

--
Mark, UK
"Nothing sets a person up more than having something turn out just the
way it's supposed to be, like falling into a Swiss snowdrift and seeing
a big dog come up with a little cask of brandy round its neck."

in message <[email hidden]>, Alan Braggins

(') said:

In article said:

Artemisia said:

I'm puzzled by these handlebars under the seat. How do you turn
a recumbent trike? Do you fall out at every bend (I heard of someone
in Cambridge who did, though that was an upright trike)?

Upright trikes can be less stable in sharp turns. Recumbents have a
much lower centre of gravity and shouldn't turn over in normal use.

Upright trikes are notorious for confusing bicyclists, because they
feel very similar to start with, but steer in a completely different
way, so the poor cyclist is desperately trying to get the trike to lean
over to turn, and it doesn't.
At least so I've read - I haven't seen it happen, or tried an upright
myself.

My parents had friends who were racing tricycle tandemists, and my dad
certainly managed to capsize one of their solo trikes when taking it out
for a spin.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; making jokes about dyslexia isn't big, it isn't clever and
;; it isn't furry.

["Followup-To:" header set to uk.rec.cycling.]

Alistair Gunn said:

In uk.rec.cycling Artemisia twisted the electrons to say:

Quoted message said:

Do you fall out at every bend (I heard of someone in Cambridge who did,
though that was an upright trike)?

I had a go on a whole bunch of last years (so no rear suspension and
non-foldable) models at the York Cycle Rally last year. I managed to get
a Trice Monster up on two wheels (on purpose I'll concede, I deliberately
leaned slightly the wrong way in a turn!) at about 15mph but it didn't
seem in anyway scary -> just more a case of thinking "hmm, the inside
wheel's lifting ... I'd better lean into the corner a bit".

I ride an XL NT, which is one of the lower trices, though it has a
slightly narrower track, so is slightly less stable.

It's reasonably easy to lift the inside wheel on a turn, but it's
never surprised me - it all happens quite progressively and you just
shift your weight a bit and back down it goes. In fact, the last
sharp bend before home on my evening commute has a pothole on the apex
of the bend, and I gain strange satisfaction from gliding over it with
the wheel neither dropping in nor lifting off the line of where the
road surface would be - it's very easy to get a feel for what the
weight on the wheels is doing.

As Alistair says, you can also lift a wheel deliberately if you want -
turn and lean the 'wrong' way. For some reason, having lifted the
right wheel, I can ride pretty much indefinitely on two wheels
leaning left (a bit over a mile is probably the furthest I've done -
but then I ran out of traffic-free road), but I can't ride on just the
right and back wheel - though I haven't tried all that hard.

Regarding falling out - only once, when doing handbrake turns on ice
and running out of ice.

regards, Ian SMith
--
|\ /| no .sig
|o o|
|/ \|

Mark McNeill said:

Response to David Martin:

Quoted message said:

Nowhere near tipping though. the.Mark does a good
two wheel thing on his windcheetah.

There's a downhill turn on my commute where, when I'm coming
home in the small hours and there's nobody about, I'll happily
lift a wheel in a fun kind of way (though it wasn't fun the
first time I did it).

The first time was a surprise to me, after that I'd occaisionally try
to lift a wheel when cornering.

Quoted message said:

I've only ever actually tipped the trike when deliberately
travelling downhill and sideways on ice.

I've not tipped mine yet, no doubt it'll happen sometime. Sadly not
for a few weeks as it has been packed away while the extension is
being built and there is no way to get it out.
--
Cheers
the.Mark

I wish you Europeans would stop using lingo that we Americans don't
understand! All right, would somebody please explain the difference
between bollards and bollocks?

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I wish you Europeans would stop using lingo that we Americans don't
understand! All right, would somebody please explain the difference
between bollards and bollocks?

Bollards... examples here - in concrete and metal

http://www.17beechroad.freeserve.co.uk/WarringtonCycleCampaign/facility-of-the-month/
http://www.17beechroad.freeserve.co.uk/WarringtonCycleCampaign/facility-of-the-month/January2005.htm

Bollocks...

Are you male? If so - check in your underwear. Your bollocks are the dangly
objects behind & either side of your err... dangly bit in the middle ;-)

Cheers, helen s