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So who started it all with EPO ?

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Road Cycling
Published
26 May 2007
Last activity
31 May 2007
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Keith
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  1. Since the general conscensus is that you don't need to dope to win the
    TDF...except if someone else is doping, the really interesting
    question to me is WTF started taking EPO and when ?

    Clearly the Gewiss team must have been on EPO as early as 94, Berzin,
    Ugrumov and Riis attesting to that. Jalabert too given his superlative
    1995 season and Once connection.

    It might be easier to figure out who the first TDF winner on EPO was ?
    Counting down from Riis in 1996 that would leave Indurain in 1995.
    Dunno about EPO for him, let's remember what Echevarri said at the
    time that "Indurain was disgusted to see what some guys were taking in
    96".

    Why focus on EPO, well it seems that prior to that the guys were
    taking "mild" drugs to keep going and recuperate faster, and no
    "inferior" rider could use that to challenge the strongest racers,
    that changed with EPO.

    Any ideas ?

  2. Keith said:

    Since the general conscensus is that you don't need to dope to win the
    TDF...except if someone else is doping, the really interesting
    question to me is WTF started taking EPO and when ?

    Clearly the Gewiss team must have been on EPO as early as 94, Berzin,
    Ugrumov and Riis attesting to that. Jalabert too given his superlative
    1995 season and Once connection.

    It might be easier to figure out who the first TDF winner on EPO was ?
    Counting down from Riis in 1996 that would leave Indurain in 1995.
    Dunno about EPO for him, let's remember what Echevarri said at the
    time that "Indurain was disgusted to see what some guys were taking in
    96".

    Why focus on EPO, well it seems that prior to that the guys were
    taking "mild" drugs to keep going and recuperate faster, and no
    "inferior" rider could use that to challenge the strongest racers,
    that changed with EPO.

    Any ideas ?

    Ideas only. One of two guys I liked a lot as they animated races -
    Bugno or Chiapucci. I have no doubt that it started (small scale?)
    soon after it got to market in 88ish.
    -Mike
    -Mike

  3. Mike Owens said:
    Keith said:

    Since the general conscensus is that you don't need to dope to win the
    TDF...except if someone else is doping, the really interesting
    question to me is WTF started taking EPO and when ?

    Quoted message said:

    Clearly the Gewiss team must have been on EPO as early as 94, Berzin,
    Ugrumov and Riis attesting to that. Jalabert too given his superlative
    1995 season and Once connection.

    Quoted message said:

    It might be easier to figure out who the first TDF winner on EPO was ?
    Counting down from Riis in 1996 that would leave Indurain in 1995.
    Dunno about EPO for him, let's remember what Echevarri said at the
    time that "Indurain was disgusted to see what some guys were taking in
    96".

    Quoted message said:

    Why focus on EPO, well it seems that prior to that the guys were
    taking "mild" drugs to keep going and recuperate faster, and no
    "inferior" rider could use that to challenge the strongest racers,
    that changed with EPO.

    Quoted message said:

    Any ideas ?

    Ideas only. One of two guys I liked a lot as they animated races -
    Bugno or Chiapucci. I have no doubt that it started (small scale?)
    soon after it got to market in 88ish.
    -Mike
    -Mike

    The Dutch started it.
    Remember the 3 guys who mysteriously died in their sleep because their
    blood was too thick?

  4. CowPunk said:
    Mike Owens said:
    Keith said:

    Since the general conscensus is that you don't need to dope to win the
    TDF...except if someone else is doping, the really interesting
    question to me is WTF started taking EPO and when ?
    Clearly the Gewiss team must have been on EPO as early as 94, Berzin,
    Ugrumov and Riis attesting to that. Jalabert too given his superlative
    1995 season and Once connection.
    It might be easier to figure out who the first TDF winner on EPO was ?
    Counting down from Riis in 1996 that would leave Indurain in 1995.
    Dunno about EPO for him, let's remember what Echevarri said at the
    time that "Indurain was disgusted to see what some guys were taking in
    96".
    Why focus on EPO, well it seems that prior to that the guys were
    taking "mild" drugs to keep going and recuperate faster, and no
    "inferior" rider could use that to challenge the strongest racers,
    that changed with EPO.
    Any ideas ?


    Ideas only. One of two guys I liked a lot as they animated races -
    Bugno or Chiapucci.

    Wasn't Claudio using caffeine (now not banned)?
    I have no doubt that it started (small scale?)

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    soon after it got to market in 88ish.
    -Mike
    -Mike

    The Dutch started it.
    Remember the 3 guys who mysteriously died in their sleep because their
    blood was too thick?


    I thought it was East Germany in the 70s/80s but can't find definitive
    answers ...

  5. Keith said:

    Any ideas ?

    perhaps Lemond or Fignon where clean in one of their victories,
    otherwis i'd say that the latest clean TDF winner must be Thevenet,
    Ocana or Van Impe.

    We must assume that neither of the following riders won their TDF
    with using banned substances: Landis, Armstrong, Pantani, Ulrich, Riis,
    Indurain, Roche, Delgardo, Zotemelk, Merckx, Gimondi and Anqetil.

    --
    Morten Reippuert Knudsen :-) <http://blog.reippuert.dk>

    Merlin Works CR-3/2.5 & Campagnolo Chorus 2007.

  6. First off, it's probably useful to know what EPO does and when it came into
    existence. It's an erythropoeitin that increases the body's formulation of
    red blood cells. It was first developed in Croatia in 1988, when Croatia
    was still part of the Soviet Bloc, and God only knows how long it took
    before it reached Europe, and undoubtedly the U.S. came later. BUT! It may
    have been "fast rtacked," because it was/is a critical life saving drug in
    the cases of severes aneamias, some naturally occuring, some that result
    from chemotherapy for cancer treatment.

    They were brought into cycling because they are believed to be a "safer" way
    to increase the blood's oxygen carrying ability than actual blood doping:
    the act of drawing your own blood, centrifuging it, putting it back just
    before a race.

    Whether using EPO or actually blood doping, there are serious health hazards
    in both cases.

    The long tradition in cycling was to increase the body's ability to carry
    more oxygen in the blood by training at altitude. The higher, the better.
    But the benefits are fairly short lived when you go from Colorado's
    plus-ten-thousand-feet training grounds to sea level. A few days at best.
    The optimum way to gain from altitude is to grow up there so that you have
    much larger lungs than the average person, and that *will* serve you well
    long term at any altitude.

    In the '80's, there was a lot going on in research of ways to enhance
    performance through increased ability to perform in an anaerobic state. I
    thought one of the more creative -- and thoroughly legal! -- ways was the
    Francesco Conconi method, in which you boosted your anareobic threshhold
    through a specific training program. It was develped specifically for
    Francesco Moser, who set major world track endurance records using it. I
    trained a couple of cyclists using it in the late 80s, and it does work.
    The problem with it is that once you start regular races where you do go
    over your anaerobic threshhold, then the efficacy of the threshhold training
    is pretty much a thing of the past. But still, you start a head of the
    game.

    When you start manipulating the component balance of your blood, such as
    incresing the number of red blood cells, you are taking on a whole lot of
    heavy risks. To do it without extremely well educated medical direction is
    Russian roulette.

    For me, it not only is a great danger to the individual, but it's like
    cheating on a crossword puzzle. How will you ever know if you could have
    done it on your own? And yes, I think the team administrators who push the
    damned stuff are the ones who should be gone after, not the cyclists they
    push to use them...

    Caroline

  7. Keith said:

    Since the general conscensus is that you don't need to dope to win the
    TDF...except if someone else is doping, the really interesting
    question to me is WTF started taking EPO and when ?

    Clearly the Gewiss team must have been on EPO as early as 94, Berzin,
    Ugrumov and Riis attesting to that. Jalabert too given his superlative
    1995 season and Once connection.

    It might be easier to figure out who the first TDF winner on EPO was ?
    Counting down from Riis in 1996 that would leave Indurain in 1995.
    Dunno about EPO for him, let's remember what Echevarri said at the
    time that "Indurain was disgusted to see what some guys were taking in
    96".

    Why focus on EPO, well it seems that prior to that the guys were
    taking "mild" drugs to keep going and recuperate faster, and no
    "inferior" rider could use that to challenge the strongest racers,
    that changed with EPO.

    Any ideas ?

    Dumbass (and I mean that sincerely),

    Here's the stupidest idea I've heard all day: EPO is the first
    performance enhancing drug ever invented. Before that everyone was clean
    and drug free and raced all day long through fields of wildflowers,
    laughing and singing all the while, in slow motion, while sentimental
    music played in the background. The DS's drove around in cars
    distributing oatmeal cookies, home baked by June Cleaver and Lemonade,
    prepared by Margaret Anderson. There were no commercial breaks either.

  8. Morten Reippuert Knudsen said:
    Keith said:

    Any ideas ?

    perhaps Lemond or Fignon where clean in one of their victories,
    otherwis i'd say that the latest clean TDF winner must be Thevenet,
    Ocana or Van Impe.

    We must assume that neither of the following riders won their TDF
    with using banned substances: Landis, Armstrong, Pantani, Ulrich, Riis,
    Indurain, Roche, Delgardo, Zotemelk, Merckx, Gimondi and Anqetil.

    The OP assumes that everyone before EPO was clean, so half your list
    needs to be proclaimed innocent on that basis.

    In the real world, your list is probably short. Many would include
    Lemond and his mysterious and miraculous "iron" injections. I'm not sure
    that's fair but it's as good a basis as any other.

  9. On Sat, 26 May 2007 18:34:18 GMT, "Caroline" <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:

    First off, it's probably useful to know what EPO does and when it came into
    existence. It's an erythropoeitin that increases the body's formulation of
    red blood cells. It was first developed in Croatia in 1988, when Croatia
    was still part of the Soviet Bloc, and God only knows how long it took
    before it reached Europe

    Erm... Croatia *is* in Europe.

  10. Andrew Price said:

    On Sat, 26 May 2007 18:34:18 GMT, "Caroline" <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:

    First off, it's probably useful to know what EPO does and when it came into
    existence. It's an erythropoeitin that increases the body's formulation of
    red blood cells. It was first developed in Croatia in 1988, when Croatia
    was still part of the Soviet Bloc, and God only knows how long it took
    before it reached Europe

    Erm... Croatia *is* in Europe.

    Only sort of. Yeah, yeah, geography and all that. It's still almost not in
    Europe.

    Ron

  11. Morten Reippuert Knudsen said:
    Keith said:

    Any ideas ?

    perhaps Lemond or Fignon where clean in one of their victories,
    otherwis i'd say that the latest clean TDF winner must be Thevenet,
    Ocana or Van Impe.

    Gino Bartali.

  12. "Andrew Price" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    On Sat, 26 May 2007 18:34:18 GMT, "Caroline" <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:

    First off, it's probably useful to know what EPO does and when it came
    into
    existence. It's an erythropoeitin that increases the body's formulation
    of
    red blood cells. It was first developed in Croatia in 1988, when Croatia
    was still part of the Soviet Bloc, and God only knows how long it took
    before it reached Europe

    Erm... Croatia *is* in Europe.

    In 1988, Coratia was part of Yugoslavia, and Yugoslavia was part of the
    Soviet Bloc (communist) countries that did not trade with the rest. Got it?
    Think "East Germany of the Baltic." (FYI, East Germany is/was also in
    Europe.)

    Caroline

  13. Caroline said:

    In 1988, Coratia was part of Yugoslavia, and Yugoslavia was part of the
    Soviet Bloc (communist) countries that did not trade with the rest. Got it?
    Think "East Germany of the Baltic." (FYI, East Germany is/was also in
    Europe.)

    Caroline

    Baltic?

  14. Dan Gregory said:
    CowPunk said:
    Mike Owens said:

    On May 26, 12:49 pm, Keith <[email hidden]> wrote:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > Since the general conscensus is that you don't need to dope to win the
    > TDF...except if someone else is doping, the really interesting
    > question to me is WTF started taking EPO and when ?
    > Clearly the Gewiss team must have been on EPO as early as 94, Berzin,
    > Ugrumov and Riis attesting to that. Jalabert too given his superlative
    > 1995 season and Once connection.
    > It might be easier to figure out who the first TDF winner on EPO was ?
    > Counting down from Riis in 1996 that would leave Indurain in 1995.
    > Dunno about EPO for him, let's remember what Echevarri said at the
    > time that "Indurain was disgusted to see what some guys were taking in
    > 96".
    > Why focus on EPO, well it seems that prior to that the guys were
    > taking "mild" drugs to keep going and recuperate faster, and no
    > "inferior" rider could use that to challenge the strongest racers,
    > that changed with EPO.
    > Any ideas ?
    Ideas only. One of two guys I liked a lot as they animated races -
    Bugno or Chiapucci.

    Wasn't Claudio using caffeine (now not banned)?
    I have no doubt that it started (small scale?)>> soon after it got to market in 88ish.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    -Mike
    -Mike

    Quoted message said:

    The Dutch started it.
    Remember the 3 guys who mysteriously died in their sleep because their
    blood was too thick?

    I thought it was East Germany in the 70s/80s but can't find definitive
    answers ...

    Dumbass -

    Blood doping, yes. They were the pioneers of the "retro" method later
    adopted by Dr. Fuentes et al.

    EPO (drug induced blood doping), no. It's an Amgen product. The East
    Germans did not develop the process for synthesizing erythropoietin in
    a lab.

    thanks,

    K. Gringioni.

  15. Caroline said:


    "Andrew Price" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    On Sat, 26 May 2007 18:34:18 GMT, "Caroline" <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:

    First off, it's probably useful to know what EPO does and when it came
    into
    existence. It's an erythropoeitin that increases the body's formulation
    of
    red blood cells. It was first developed in Croatia in 1988, when Croatia
    was still part of the Soviet Bloc, and God only knows how long it took
    before it reached Europe

    Erm... Croatia *is* in Europe.

    In 1988, Coratia was part of Yugoslavia, and Yugoslavia was part of the
    Soviet Bloc (communist) countries that did not trade with the rest. Got it?
    Think "East Germany of the Baltic." (FYI, East Germany is/was also in
    Europe.)

    Actually, Tito, thug and dictator that he was did keep Yugoslavia fairly
    independent from the Soviets. They were still heavily influenced but not
    subjected the way East Germany was (and I think you meant Balkans).

    All of the old Yugoslavia, all the Balkans, is more Eastern in culture and
    ethnicity than any part of Germany. They had been conquered and subjected by
    Islam and the people are, as the name of the country suggests mostly Slavic. I
    was there shortly before the break up and Tito's picture was still everywhere.
    Dumbass American got an introduction to the world when he found that a large,
    relatively well-dressed man pulling out a 35mm camera caused people to turn and
    all but flee in fear.

    But, yes, they were economically and culturally isolated from most of the world.
    The Yugo automobile that was exported as a dirt cheap econobox was something of
    a luxury item there. The local cars were all branded Zastava and looked like a
    cheaper version of a Fiat 500. Actually almost everything from phones to toilet
    seats was branded Zastava, which I think translates to something like "works."
    Foreign goods were way overpriced and customer service was hilariously bad
    almost everywhere. They did export some consumer electronics and other items to
    the rest of Europe.

    Great people, wonderful taste in music and some of the loveliest women I've seen
    anywhere. Fascinating corner of the world.

    Ron

    Ron

    Effect pedal demo's up at http://www.soundclick.com/ronsonicpedalry

  16. RonSonic said:
    Caroline said:

    "Andrew Price" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    On Sat, 26 May 2007 18:34:18 GMT, "Caroline" <[email hidden]>
    wrote:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    >First off, it's probably useful to know what EPO does and when it came
    >into
    >existence. It's an erythropoeitin that increases the body's formulation
    >of
    >red blood cells. It was first developed in Croatia in 1988, when Croatia
    >was still part of the Soviet Bloc, and God only knows how long it took
    >before it reached Europe

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Erm... Croatia *is* in Europe.

    Quoted message said:

    In 1988, Coratia was part of Yugoslavia, and Yugoslavia was part of the
    Soviet Bloc (communist) countries that did not trade with the rest. Got it?
    Think "East Germany of the Baltic." (FYI, East Germany is/was also in
    Europe.)

    Actually, Tito, thug and dictator that he was did keep Yugoslavia fairly
    independent from the Soviets. They were still heavily influenced but not
    subjected the way East Germany was (and I think you meant Balkans).

    All of the old Yugoslavia, all the Balkans, is more Eastern in culture and
    ethnicity than any part of Germany. They had been conquered and subjected by
    Islam and the people are, as the name of the country suggests mostly Slavic. I
    was there shortly before the break up and Tito's picture was still everywhere.
    Dumbass American got an introduction to the world when he found that a large,
    relatively well-dressed man pulling out a 35mm camera caused people to turn and
    all but flee in fear.

    But, yes, they were economically and culturally isolated from most of the world.
    The Yugo automobile that was exported as a dirt cheap econobox was something of
    a luxury item there. The local cars were all branded Zastava and looked like a
    cheaper version of a Fiat 500. Actually almost everything from phones to toilet
    seats was branded Zastava, which I think translates to something like "works."
    Foreign goods were way overpriced and customer service was hilariously bad
    almost everywhere. They did export some consumer electronics and other items to
    the rest of Europe.

    Great people, wonderful taste in music and some of the loveliest women I've seen
    anywhere. Fascinating corner of the world.

    Ron

    Ron

    Effect pedal demo's up athttp://www.soundclick.com/ronsonicpedalry- Hide quoted text -

    - Show quoted text -

    Haven't been to Yugoslavia, but the Czechs in particular, coming back
    into the European fold and freedom was awesome. Great people, culture
    and Prague is incredible.
    Bill C

  17. On 5/26/07 12:20 PM, in article
    [email hidden], "Fred Fredburger"

    Quoted message said:
    Keith said:

    Since the general conscensus is that you don't need to dope to win the
    TDF...except if someone else is doping, the really interesting
    question to me is WTF started taking EPO and when ?

    Clearly the Gewiss team must have been on EPO as early as 94, Berzin,
    Ugrumov and Riis attesting to that. Jalabert too given his superlative
    1995 season and Once connection.

    It might be easier to figure out who the first TDF winner on EPO was ?
    Counting down from Riis in 1996 that would leave Indurain in 1995.
    Dunno about EPO for him, let's remember what Echevarri said at the
    time that "Indurain was disgusted to see what some guys were taking in
    96".

    Why focus on EPO, well it seems that prior to that the guys were
    taking "mild" drugs to keep going and recuperate faster, and no
    "inferior" rider could use that to challenge the strongest racers,
    that changed with EPO.

    Any ideas ?

    Dumbass (and I mean that sincerely),

    Here's the stupidest idea I've heard all day: EPO is the first
    performance enhancing drug ever invented. Before that everyone was clean
    and drug free and raced all day long through fields of wildflowers,
    laughing and singing all the while, in slow motion, while sentimental
    music played in the background. The DS's drove around in cars
    distributing oatmeal cookies, home baked by June Cleaver and Lemonade,
    prepared by Margaret Anderson. There were no commercial breaks either.

    Dumbass (and I mean that sincerely),

    Lemonade, prepared by Ann Margrock.

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/0/08/AnnMargrock.jpg/200px-An
    nMargrock.jpg

  18. "RonSonic" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    On Sun, 27 May 2007 00:13:22 GMT, "Caroline" <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:


    "Andrew Price" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    On Sat, 26 May 2007 18:34:18 GMT, "Caroline" <[email hidden]>
    wrote:

    >First off, it's probably useful to know what EPO does and when it came
    >into
    >existence. It's an erythropoeitin that increases the body's formulation
    >of
    >red blood cells. It was first developed in Croatia in 1988, when
    >Croatia
    >was still part of the Soviet Bloc, and God only knows how long it took
    >before it reached Europe

    Erm... Croatia *is* in Europe.

    In 1988, Coratia was part of Yugoslavia, and Yugoslavia was part of the
    Soviet Bloc (communist) countries that did not trade with the rest. Got
    it?
    Think "East Germany of the Baltic." (FYI, East Germany is/was also in
    Europe.)

    Actually, Tito, thug and dictator that he was did keep Yugoslavia fairly
    independent from the Soviets. They were still heavily influenced but not
    subjected the way East Germany was (and I think you meant Balkans).

    Hey, at least SOMEBODY around here reads minds! Thanks! '-)

    Quoted message said:


    All of the old Yugoslavia, all the Balkans, is more Eastern in culture and
    ethnicity than any part of Germany. They had been conquered and subjected
    by
    Islam and the people are, as the name of the country suggests mostly
    Slavic. I
    was there shortly before the break up and Tito's picture was still
    everywhere.
    Dumbass American got an introduction to the world when he found that a
    large,
    relatively well-dressed man pulling out a 35mm camera caused people to
    turn and
    all but flee in fear.

    But, yes, they were economically and culturally isolated from most of the
    world.
    The Yugo automobile that was exported as a dirt cheap econobox was
    something of
    a luxury item there. The local cars were all branded Zastava and looked
    like a
    cheaper version of a Fiat 500. Actually almost everything from phones to
    toilet
    seats was branded Zastava, which I think translates to something like
    "works."
    Foreign goods were way overpriced and customer service was hilariously bad
    almost everywhere. They did export some consumer electronics and other
    items to
    the rest of Europe.

    Great people, wonderful taste in music and some of the loveliest women
    I've seen
    anywhere. Fascinating corner of the world.

    Ron

    And some of the most beautiful locations and towns on the whole northern Med
    coast! I've always regretted not getting to Dubrovnik before it was
    damaged.

    Caroline

  19. In article said:

    On 5/26/07 12:20 PM, in article
    [email hidden], "Fred Fredburger"
    <[email hidden]> wrote:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Dumbass (and I mean that sincerely),

    Here's the stupidest idea I've heard all day: EPO is the first
    performance enhancing drug ever invented. Before that everyone was clean
    and drug free and raced all day long through fields of wildflowers,
    laughing and singing all the while, in slow motion, while sentimental
    music played in the background. The DS's drove around in cars
    distributing oatmeal cookies, home baked by June Cleaver and Lemonade,
    prepared by Margaret Anderson. There were no commercial breaks either.

    Dumbass (and I mean that sincerely),

    Lemonade, prepared by Ann Margrock.

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/0/08/AnnMargrock.jpg/200px-An
    nMargrock.jpg

    I'll have what she's having!

    --
    Ryan Cousineau [email hidden] http://www.wiredcola.com/
    "I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
    to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos

  20. Mike Owens said:
    Keith said:

    Since the general conscensus is that you don't need to dope to win the
    TDF...except if someone else is doping, the really interesting
    question to me is WTF started taking EPO and when ?

    Quoted message said:

    Clearly the Gewiss team must have been on EPO as early as 94, Berzin,
    Ugrumov and Riis attesting to that. Jalabert too given his superlative
    1995 season and Once connection.

    Quoted message said:

    It might be easier to figure out who the first TDF winner on EPO was ?
    Counting down from Riis in 1996 that would leave Indurain in 1995.
    Dunno about EPO for him, let's remember what Echevarri said at the
    time that "Indurain was disgusted to see what some guys were taking in
    96".

    Quoted message said:

    Why focus on EPO, well it seems that prior to that the guys were
    taking "mild" drugs to keep going and recuperate faster, and no
    "inferior" rider could use that to challenge the strongest racers,
    that changed with EPO.

    Quoted message said:

    Any ideas ?

    Ideas only. One of two guys I liked a lot as they animated races -
    Bugno or Chiapucci. I have no doubt that it started (small scale?)
    soon after it got to market in 88ish.
    -Mike
    -Mike

    Bugno's always been my primo. I can't ever forget his interview in
    early 90s, in which the question was "how did you suddenly get so
    awesome," and his answer was "my physio discovered a wheat allergy."
    Okey doke, dude.

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