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Speeding cyclists

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UK and Europe
Published
21 February 2004
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15 March 2004
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Dirtylitterboxo
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  1. James Annan <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Gareth A. said:
    James Annan said:

    Trevor Barton wrote:

    >I've read most of this thread and frankly I've rarely been as


    unimpressed

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    >by the hypocrisy of some of the views here. Somehow it's acceptable to exceed the speed limits
    >or ride drunk, if you're on a bike, but not so if you're in a car? How?

    Same way as it's ok to exceed the speed limits on foot, or walk/run when drunk. Unless you'd
    like to outlaw them too?

    You are unlikely to exceed any speed limit on foot,

    It's unlikely on a bike too. The question was, how is it acceptable?

    Absent any law to the contrary, completely.

    If you're looking for "fair", the law (and the world) will disappoint you.

  2. Just zis Guy said:

    On Tue, 24 Feb 2004 00:04:57 +0000, Trevor Barton <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    <[email hidden]>:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    E=1/2mv^2.

    Quoted message said:

    No, that's specious. It assumes, unreasonably, that v is the initial velocity when the impact
    occurs (ie noone braked)

    Not as such: both vehicles have brakes. It assumes that either vehicle will have braked by the
    same amount (reasonable in the case of my recumbent, which has Very Powerful Brakes). Use of the
    brakes by the driver of a vehicle may also be influenced by the potential harm to that driver in
    the event of a crash.

    Quoted message said:

    and also that all the kinetic energy of the impactor is imparted to the impactee,

    Not as such: conservation of momentum applies. In the case of the car the vast disparity in mass
    is such that the velocity of both impactor and impactee after collision is approximately the same
    as the mass of the impactor beforehand; with a cyclist, mass being of the same order of magnitude
    as the impactee, the acceleration applied to the impactee will be lower, so injuries less likely
    to be serious.

    Child pedestrians hospitalised due to collision with pedal cycles in 2002-2003: 105. Child
    pedestrians hospitalised due to collision with cars in 2002-2003: 2,826.

    So bikes, which comprise far less than 1 in 28 of total traffic, account for 1 in 28 of total
    injuries? Mmmm, how safe is that then?

    Sadly, you (and I) have strayed from the initial reason for my irritation at this thread: the fact
    that some here, yourself included ISTR, felt that being on a bike justified knowingly exceeding the
    speed limit required for cars *simply* because the law doesn't apply to bikes.

    I still maintain, and will always do so, that that attitude is stupid, and will inevitably result in
    motorist irritation with us (which we don't need more of) and potentially legislation for speed
    limits on bikes. So be it. It's sad that your attitude to speed applies only to the letter of the
    law, rather than the intent. Paul Smith is not alone in his dogmatic view of the world around him.
    Sadly, neither polarisation does any justice to the legitimacy of any case either of you may have.

    You can argue all you like about the relative dangers of a bike compared with a car; I disagree with
    many of the arguments you put forward, but ces't la vie. The point still remains that if you on your
    bike exceeding the 30 mph speed limit outside my house happen to run into my 7 year old daughter you
    are going to kill her or do her a serious injury. The fact that it may or may not be less severe
    than that done by a car is *absolutely* not relevant. You will be just as culpable as a car driver.
    Presumably, though, you'd feel less so, because you feel you have physics, and the letter of the
    law, on your side.

    Bollocks.

    --
    Trevor Barton

  3. On Wed, 25 Feb 2004 00:16:17 +0000, Trevor Barton
    <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    <[email hidden]>:

    Quoted message said:

    So bikes, which comprise far less than 1 in 28 of total traffic, account for 1 in 28 of total
    injuries? Mmmm, how safe is that then?

    Not comparing like with like. This includes, for example, accidents on shared-use paths. The
    opportunities for conflict between ped and cyclist are much greater.

    Quoted message said:

    Sadly, you (and I) have strayed from the initial reason for my irritation at this thread: the fact
    that some here, yourself included ISTR, felt that being on a bike justified knowingly exceeding the
    speed limit required for cars *simply* because the law doesn't apply to bikes.

    No, in my case if I did so it would be because I pose much less danger than a car at the same speed,
    and that my level of awareness is affected by the fact that a fast-moving cyclist is at much greater
    personal risk in a collision than a fast-moving motorist.

    Quoted message said:

    You can argue all you like about the relative dangers of a bike compared with a car; I disagree
    with many of the arguments you put forward, but ces't la vie.

    Ye canna' change the laws of physics ;-)

    Also note in my orogonal reply I said "might."

    Quoted message said:

    The point still remains that if you on your bike exceeding the 30 mph speed limit outside my house
    happen to run into my 7 year old daughter you are going to kill her or do her a serious injury.

    I very much doubt that I would kill her, and I doubt even more that you would find me doing 30mph -
    on bike or in car - on a road where there are children about.

    I also very much doubt that any collision would occur because, as has been repeatedly pointed out,
    the cyclist is narrower, and it is easier for a cyclist to move sideways by the margin necessary to
    avoid someone in the road.

    Quoted message said:

    The fact that it may or may not be less severe than that done by a car is *absolutely* not
    relevant. You will be just as culpable as a car driver. Presumably, though, you'd feel less so,
    because you feel you have physics, and the letter of the law, on your side.

    Ludicrous. If I ever hit anyone on my bike I would feel no less cuplable than if I hit them in my
    car. For the low-down on just how responsible and culpable drivers can feel see Helen's "lost for
    words" thread below.

    --
    Guy
    ===
    May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
    chapmancentral.demon.co.ukchapmancentral.demon.co.uk

    88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University

  4. On Wed, 25 Feb 2004 00:16:17 +0000, Trevor Barton
    <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    <[email hidden]>:

    One further point:

    Quoted message said:

    You can argue all you like about the relative dangers of a bike compared with a car; I disagree
    with many of the arguments you put forward, but ces't la vie.

    Do you keep below 60mph on motorways, 50mph on dual carriageways and 40mph on single carriageways?
    After all, these are the limits for goods vehicles over 7.5T GVW, so surely it would be
    irresponsible to exceed them in a car even though it is lighter and more manoeuvreable?

    --
    Guy
    ===
    May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
    chapmancentral.demon.co.ukchapmancentral.demon.co.uk

    88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University

  5. you know? said:

    On Wed, 25 Feb 2004 00:16:17 +0000, Trevor Barton <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    <[email hidden]>:

    Quoted message said:

    So bikes, which comprise far less than 1 in 28 of total traffic, account for 1 in 28 of total
    injuries? Mmmm, how safe is that then?

    Not comparing like with like. This includes, for example, accidents on shared-use paths. The
    opportunities for conflict between ped and cyclist are much greater.

    But the number of bikes is that much less, and according to you (and at "normal" bike speeds I
    agree) the injuries caused by bikes are so much less. I don't know what the relavent numbers are,
    but there still seems to be a disproportionate number of cycle related pedestrian injuries. I don't
    think the numbers neccessarily show what you intended them to show.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Sadly, you (and I) have strayed from the initial reason for my irritation at this thread: the fact
    that some here, yourself included ISTR, felt that being on a bike justified knowingly exceeding
    the speed limit required for cars *simply* because the law doesn't apply to bikes.

    No, in my case if I did so it would be because I pose much less danger than a car at the same
    speed, and that my level of awareness is affected by the fact that a fast-moving cyclist is at
    much greater personal risk in a collision than a fast-moving motorist.

    And Paul Smith argues that because he is apparently an advanced driver his level of awareness and
    skill is that much greater than many other motorists, and that that given him a right to travel at a
    speed that *he* sees fit. How can you argue against his position; you are making your own judgment
    about your own skills and capabilities as a bike rider in exactly the same manner as he does for his
    driving skills.

    Your argument is that because you are less likely to cause (or have) an accident on a bike, and if
    you do you are less likely to cause serious injury, so you should be able to exceed the speed limit
    for cars if you feel it's appropriate, and anyway the speed limit doesn't apply to you so it's
    irrelevant, anyway. PS's argument is that he is more capable than many road users because he's an
    excellent driver, and so is less likely to cause an accident, and so he should be able to exceed the
    speed limit in his car, but unfortuantely the law says he can't, so let's change the law.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    You can argue all you like about the relative dangers of a bike compared with a car; I disagree
    with many of the arguments you put forward, but ces't la vie.

    Ye canna' change the laws of physics ;-)

    Also note in my orogonal reply I said "might."

    Perhaps that should have been "orthogonal" 😉

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    The point still remains that if you on your bike exceeding the 30 mph speed limit outside my house
    happen to run into my 7 year old daughter you are going to kill her or do her a serious injury.

    I very much doubt that I would kill her, and I doubt even more that you would find me doing 30mph
    - on bike or in car - on a road where there are children about.

    How do you know she's about? Because you saw her? Are you suggesting somehow that there are always
    warnings about that there might be a kid on the road ahead of you?

    Quoted message said:

    I also very much doubt that any collision would occur because, as has been repeatedly pointed out,
    the cyclist is narrower, and it is easier for a cyclist to move sideways by the margin necessary
    to avoid someone in the road.

    But Paul [censored] is a skilled and experienced driver. He also doubts that any collision would
    occur, because he's skilled enough to avoid one. Why are your skills and judgment so much
    better than his?

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    The fact that it may or may not be less severe than that done by a car is *absolutely* not
    relevant. You will be just as culpable as a car driver. Presumably, though, you'd feel less so,
    because you feel you have physics, and the letter of the law, on your side.

    Ludicrous. If I ever hit anyone on my bike I would feel no less cuplable than if I hit them in my
    car. For the low-down on just how responsible and culpable drivers can feel see Helen's "lost for
    words" thread below.

    No. For a low down on how one driver feels, perhaps. I wont attempt to argue that that person is
    unique, because they're not. You do nothing at all for the justification of your arguments by
    holding out the bad examples of motoring behaviour and saying "Look at this person, aren't all
    motorists a bunch of [censored]?" You could equally point out all the cases of domestic violence
    around the country and point out "Look at that person, aren't all men [censored]?" or "look at that
    rejected assylum seeker, aren't all assylum seekers scrounging [censored]?". It doesn't make for a
    balanced argument. And without a balanced argument you risk putting yourself into the same pot as
    P [censored].

    I've just worked out what the numbers at the start of this post mean. Given that there are far less
    bikes than cars, and also given that the bike numbers show injuries on "shared use" paths, they show
    that bike riders on shared use paths are not being careful enough to avoid injuring their less well
    protected path sharers. This must mean that they're all a buch of unfeeling [censored] who out to have
    their goolies sandpapered. Hmmm, that sounds familiar.

    --
    Trevor Barton

  6. Tony Raven said:

    Don't forget that rotating sawblade, I mean chainwheel, stuck out the front to deter those that
    might be tempted to get in the way ;-)

    Which is one reason why:

    1. All my recumbents have a chainguard of the sort pictured here:
    hpvelotechnik.comindex e.html, and
    2. Such items will be mandatory on all machines with leading chainsets competing in the BHPC race
    series this year.

    --

    Dave Larrington - legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uklegslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk
    ===========================================================
    Editor - British Human Power Club Newsletter
    bhpc.org.ukbhpc.org.uk
    ===========================================================

  7. "W K" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    I got the envelope out and you are correct. OTOH this means a coefficient of friction of 1. That
    makes it worse than an extremely hairy angle.

    Where do you get 45 degrees from?

    faqs.orgpart5

    Subject: 9.15 Descending II

    "... For smooth tires on pavement, slipout occurs at slightly less than 45 degrees from the road
    surface and is both precipitous and unrecoverable. Although knobby tires have a less sudden slipout
    and can be drifted around curves, they begin to side-slip at a more upright angle as their tread
    fingers walk rather than slip. For this reason, knobby tires cannot achieve lean angles of smooth
    tires and offer no cornering advantage on pavement ..."

    --
    Dave...

  8. "Trevor Barton" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    I've just worked out what the numbers at the start of this post mean. Given that there are far
    less bikes than cars, and also given that the bike numbers show injuries on "shared use" paths,
    they show that bike riders on shared use paths are not being careful enough to avoid injuring
    their less well protected path sharers. This must mean that they're all a buch of unfeeling
    [censored] who out to have their goolies sandpapered. Hmmm, that sounds familiar.

    Or it could show that pedestrians on shared use pathways behave differently to pedestrians on
    pavements, e.g. sidestepping without looking - and on shared use paths a 2 foot sidestep can bung
    you bang in front of a cyclist, where as a similar step off a pavement would rarely bring you in
    front of a car - drivers (and cyclists in the primary position) leave a gap to the kerb. There is
    also another variable in that cycles are far more quiet than cars, and as such a valuable cue that
    warns of the approach of cars*, so pedestrians are again less likely to randomly move in front of
    a vehicle.

    The figures showing injuries caused by cyclists are depressingly high, but I think that the
    circumstances are such that a direct comparison with injuries caused by cars is not easily
    accomplished.

    Eddie

    *I was reading a report that says that tyre noise is becoming the main component of noise from a
    normal domestic car, and that some manufacturers (Michelin was the one I read about) are spending a
    fortune on analysing the road/tyre interface, and hope to reduce the noise considerably.

  9. Frobnitz said:

    *I was reading a report that says that tyre noise is becoming the main component of noise from a
    normal domestic car, and that some manufacturers (Michelin was the one I read about) are spending
    a fortune on analysing the road/tyre interface, and hope to reduce the noise considerably.

    This I think is true, and also seems to depend on the road surface. Truck tyres on German roads
    produce a peculiar high-pitched whine which is audible much further from the road than the engine
    noise, for example.

    --

    Dave Larrington - legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uklegslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk
    ===========================================================
    Editor - British Human Power Club Newsletter
    bhpc.org.ukbhpc.org.uk
    ===========================================================

  10. "Dave Kahn" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    "W K" <[email hidden]> wrote in message


    news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:


    Quoted message said:

    I got the envelope out and you are correct. OTOH this means a coefficient of friction of 1. That
    makes it worse than an extremely hairy angle.

    Where do you get 45 degrees from?

    faqs.orgpart5

    Subject: 9.15 Descending II

    "... For smooth tires on pavement, slipout occurs at slightly less than 45 degrees from the road
    surface and is both precipitous and unrecoverable.

    Well that certainly sounds like "worse than extremely hairy".

  11. Just zis Guy said:

    I also very much doubt that any collision would occur because, as has been repeatedly pointed out,
    the cyclist is narrower, and it is easier for a cyclist to move sideways by the margin necessary
    to avoid someone in the road.

    I've been following this thread with interest but have been reluctant to wade in, because I'm really
    not sure where my opinions lie.

    I'm not entirely convinced that the front of a bike is less pedestrian friendly than the front of an
    average car. Sure, most 2WD drive cars these days are supposed to be designed to scoop up peds and
    to have a minimum of protrusions, but the bumper's still ideally positioned to break a leg.

    And although I'm confident that a bike is much more maneouvrable than a car, as well as being much
    narrower and having significantly less kinetic energy, the point that's nagging away at me (and that
    I haven't seen made yet) is that you can never be sure which way the ped will jump.

    Anyway, reading the latest today I suddenly remembered the incident a couple of years ago when a
    pensioner was hit by a cyclist on Bathwick Hill in Bath. From the description it would seem quite
    clear that the pensioner was at fault, if not for the fact that peds always have right of way. I'm
    not even sure how relevant it is here, but the time seems right to bring it up.

    There was a thread about it here in May 2002, headed "Bath Chronicle news story ...". And a Google
    search found that there's more information at
    thebikezone.org.ukjustice.html (everything between here and my .sig is
    pasted from Bikezone):

    The case of Richard Brady.

    As Richard Brady, an international triathlete, approached a central traffic island on Bathwick Hill
    in bath 66 year old Sonia Tuckett and her husband Philip stepped into the road. Brady and Mrs
    Tuckett collided and Brady was thrown off his bike and hit a parked van. His £1600 cycle was written
    off and Mrs Tuckett suffered serious injuries requiring 4 weeks in hospital.

    The magistrates argued that Brady was 'on a high quality cycle' and could have taken action to avoid
    the collision. He was found guilty of careless cycling, fined £100 and ordered to pay £100 costs.
    The verdict also left Brady open to a private prosecution for damages.

    The prosecutor, Karen Boyes, argued that although Tuckett has stepped into the path of the cyclist,
    the speed the cyclist was travelling meant 'he was unable to swerve out of the way'. Tuckett had
    claimed they had "looked carefully before crossing" and that "there was no traffic either way".

    Brady, said: "I was expecting that they would see me and realise it was my right of way, as if I was
    a car. As I continued down the hill the person stepped out in front of me at which point I had very
    little time to stop or move out of the way."

    When Mrs Boyes asked if he made allowance for the possibility that Mrs Tuckett would step out, he
    replied: "I was cycling as I always cycle down that hill. I was already slowing down."

    Defence solicitor Harriet Heard said: "This isn't a pedestrian crossing. It is whether a cyclist
    would expect to have his right of way respected. His evidence is that he had every reason to expect
    Mrs Tuckett would stop."

    Chairman of the bench John Price said the the accident could have been avoided. "He saw them cross
    the road. He knew a danger existed. He did not exercise due care."

    After the hearing, Mrs Tuckett said she hoped it would be a warning to other cyclists. She said she
    was planning to sue Mr Brady for compensation through the civil courts, and was writing to Bath MP
    Don Foster calling for compulsory insurance for cyclists.

    This case seems to argue that it is the duty of a cyclists to ride no faster then a speed that
    allows them to 'swerve out of the way' of errant pedestrians who step into their path, even if they
    are not using a recognised pedestrian crossing. Much was made of the 'speed' of the cyclist,
    suggesting that the law feels what is an acceptable speed for a cyclists is much less then that
    which is acceptable for a motor vehicle, even though the motor vehicle presents a much greater
    danger due to its size and weight. Most fundamentally, it also suggests that the courts feel that
    cyclist on seeing a potential hazard (perhaps a group of school children on the footpath, or someone
    looking as if they might be waiting to cross the road) should modify their behaviour to take in to
    account the fact the pedestrian might fail to take an observation and step into their path. It may
    well be that such a position has merit. However, it is certainly not applied to the drivers of motor
    vehicles. Also, if a cyclist had swerved into the path of a motor vehicle, for example when exiting
    a cycle path, it is almost certainly the case that a driver would not be held responsible on the
    basis they should have assumed that the cyclists might well act in such a manner. Consequently it
    seems cyclists may well be held to be responsible for the errors of third parties, even though even
    a speeding driver will be held to be free of any blame should they hit and kill someone who steps
    into their path and drivers frequently escape prosecution even when they have failed to modify their
    behaviour in response to a hazard caused by others.

    --
    Danny Colyer (the UK company has been laughed out of my reply address)
    speedy5.freeserve.co.ukdanny
    "He who dares not offend cannot be honest." - Thomas Paine

  12. W K said:

    A cyclists radar reflectivity isn't going to be too good either, and the spokes will be giving
    radar reflections at all sorts of speeds - apparently they have to have several consistent speeds
    (over fractions of a second mind you) before they flash.

    I once managed to set off a speed camera on the Archway Road in London. I think it was the laptop in
    my rucksack that gave me enough radar signal, it was probably at just the right angle. I never
    managed a repeat, despite many attempts :-). Its pretty easy to get over 35 down there.

    Ian

  13. Imagine we're going to introduce speed limits for bikes. First of all we'd have to put speedometers
    on every bike. They'd have to be visible at night
    - at present most aren't, probably because it would use too much power. And bicycle mechanics would
    have to be officially sanctioned to calibrate them. Lots of installations are wildly inaccurate -
    just look at some of the average speeds posted on alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent.

    Trevor Barton said:
    you know? said:

    On Wed, 25 Feb 2004 00:16:17 +0000, Trevor Barton <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    <[email hidden]>:

    Quoted message said:

    So bikes, which comprise far less than 1 in 28 of total traffic, account for 1 in 28 of total
    injuries? Mmmm, how safe is that then?

    A better example might have bean pedestrian deaths due to collisions with cyclists. Off the top of
    my head it runs at <10 a year, compared to 1000 or so pedestrian deaths due to collisions with motor
    vehicles. When you correct for the fact that a disproportionate amount of motor vehicle miles are on
    pedestrian-free roads - I'm pretty sure bikes come out ahead - but are not harmless.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Not comparing like with like. This includes, for example, accidents on shared-use paths. The
    opportunities for conflict between ped and cyclist are much greater.

    But the number of bikes is that much less, and according to you (and at "normal" bike speeds I
    agree) the injuries caused by bikes are so much less. I don't know what the relavent numbers are,
    but there still seems to be a disproportionate number of cycle related pedestrian injuries. I
    don't think the numbers neccessarily show what you intended them to show.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Sadly, you (and I) have strayed from the initial reason for my irritation at this thread: the
    fact that some here, yourself included ISTR, felt that being on a bike justified knowingly
    exceeding the speed limit required for cars *simply* because the law doesn't apply to bikes.

    No, in my case if I did so it would be because I pose much less danger than a car at the same
    speed, and that my level of awareness is affected by the fact that a fast-moving cyclist is at
    much greater personal risk in a collision than a fast-moving motorist.

    And Paul Smith argues that because he is apparently an advanced driver his level of awareness and
    skill is that much greater than many other motorists, and that that given him a right to travel at
    a speed that *he* sees fit. How can you argue against his position; you are making your own
    judgment about your own skills and capabilities as a bike rider in exactly the same manner as he
    does for his driving skills.

    Your argument is that because you are less likely to cause (or have) an accident on a bike, and
    if you do you are less likely to cause serious injury, so you should be able to exceed the speed
    limit for cars if you feel it's appropriate, and anyway the speed limit doesn't apply to you so
    it's irrelevant, anyway. PS's argument is that he is more capable than many road users because
    he's an excellent driver, and so is less likely to cause an accident, and so he should be able
    to exceed the speed limit in his car, but unfortuantely the law says he can't, so let's change
    the law.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    You can argue all you like about the relative dangers of a bike compared with a car; I disagree
    with many of the arguments you put forward, but ces't la vie.

    Ye canna' change the laws of physics ;-)

    Also note in my orogonal reply I said "might."

    Perhaps that should have been "orthogonal" 😉

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    The point still remains that if you on your bike exceeding the 30 mph speed limit outside my
    house happen to run into my 7 year old daughter you are going to kill her or do her a serious
    injury.

    I very much doubt that I would kill her, and I doubt even more that you would find me doing 30mph
    - on bike or in car - on a road where there are children about.

    How do you know she's about? Because you saw her? Are you suggesting somehow that there are always
    warnings about that there might be a kid on the road ahead of you?

    Quoted message said:

    I also very much doubt that any collision would occur because, as has been repeatedly pointed
    out, the cyclist is narrower, and it is easier for a cyclist to move sideways by the margin
    necessary to avoid someone in the road.

    But Paul [censored] is a skilled and experienced driver. He also doubts that any collision would
    occur, because he's skilled enough to avoid one. Why are your skills and judgment so much better
    than his?

    It's not a matter of skills and judgment. The other day, I followed a taxi through a crossing
    (lights on green) at the speed limit that was 20mph. I was about 20 feet behind the taxi, and as
    soon as it cleared the crossing lots of pedestrians started to cross the road from both sides. I
    managed to steer a course between them but there wasn't much space. Had I been driving a car, I
    would have hit at least two people - one on each side. Of course, had I been driving a car all those
    people wouldn't have stepped out a few feet in front of me.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    The fact that it may or may not be less severe than that done by a car is *absolutely* not
    relevant. You will be just as culpable as a car driver. Presumably, though, you'd feel less so,
    because you feel you have physics, and the letter of the law, on your side.

    Ludicrous. If I ever hit anyone on my bike I would feel no less cuplable than if I hit them in my
    car. For the low-down on just how responsible and culpable drivers can feel see Helen's "lost for
    words" thread below.

    No. For a low down on how one driver feels, perhaps. I wont attempt to argue that that person is
    unique, because they're not. You do nothing at all for the justification of your arguments by
    holding out the bad examples of motoring behaviour and saying "Look at this person, aren't all
    motorists a bunch of [censored]?" You could equally point out all the cases of domestic violence
    around the country and point out "Look at that person, aren't all men [censored]?" or "look at that
    rejected assylum seeker, aren't all assylum seekers scrounging [censored]?". It doesn't make for a
    balanced argument. And without a balanced argument you risk putting yourself into the same pot as
    P [censored].

    I've just worked out what the numbers at the start of this post mean. Given that there are far
    less bikes than cars, and also given that the bike numbers show injuries on "shared use" paths,
    they show that bike riders on shared use paths are not being careful enough to avoid injuring
    their less well protected path sharers.

    IMO it's not possible to ride on a shared path safely. People are just too unpredictable - they
    sidestep without warning; kids run about; they won't keep to the left - or are pedestrians meant to
    walk on the RHS of the pavement? I can never remember. I've even seen people walk into one another -
    no vehicles involved. Replace one of these inconsiderate pedestrians with an inconsiderate cyclist
    going at 8mph and instead of an 'excuse me', both parties may end up in hospital.

    I was hit once by a cyclist whilst walking on the pavement - he emerged from behind a brick wall at
    little more than walking pace.

    Quoted message said:

    This must mean that they're all a buch of unfeeling [censored] who out to have their goolies
    sandpapered. Hmmm, that sounds familiar.

    Lots of cyclists are... I think it's a disease of the young - round here all cyclists (to a first
    approximation) are students. The same people as can't get car insurance for less than a grand a year
    because of their statistical propensity to recklessness.

    Obviously I don't consider myself an inconsiderate cyclist (who does)... When I used to ride on shared-
    use paths regularly, it was because it took me a while to twig just how dangerous they are and think
    about all the unexpected ways in which accidents can happen. If I cycle through the park, I try to
    pass pedestrians by 3 feet - more if I'm going faster.

  14. anonymous coward said:

    Lots of installations are wildly inaccurate - just look at some of the average speeds posted on
    alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent.

    Can you justify that comment? You almost seem to be suggesting that if someone's computer records
    higher speeds than yours it must mean that their computer is incorrectly calibrated. Perhaps it's
    just that the bikes really are faster.

    --
    Danny Colyer (the UK company has been laughed out of my reply address)
    speedy5.freeserve.co.ukdanny
    "He who dares not offend cannot be honest." - Thomas Paine

  15. "Danny Colyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:c1j040$9bp$1
    @news8.svr.pol.co.uk:

    Quoted message said:

    Most fundamentally, it also suggests that the courts feel that cyclist on seeing a potential
    hazard (perhaps a group of school children on the footpath, or someone looking as if they might be
    waiting to cross the road) should modify their behaviour to take in to account the fact the
    pedestrian might fail to take an observation and step into their path.

    I know I modify my behaviour, but that usually means covering the brakes (if they weren't already),
    perhaps moving further out from the side of the road, checking if there is space for me to swerve
    around them if they do step out, making sure there's nobody going to run in to the back of me if I
    haul on the anchors etc.

    Perhaps the behaviour modification that you're concerned about is the implication that you should
    slow down to a virtual crawl in every such situations. I can't see anyone really agreeing to that,
    regardless of their mode of transport or the laudability of the sentiment.

    Graeme

  16. anonymous coward <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    A better example might have bean pedestrian deaths due to collisions with cyclists. Off the top of
    my head it runs at <10 a year, compared to 1000 or so pedestrian deaths due to collisions with
    motor vehicles. When you correct for the fact that a disproportionate amount of motor vehicle
    miles are on pedestrian-free roads - I'm pretty sure bikes come out ahead - but are not harmless.

    Indeed I've done the analysis from RAGB data and the cyclist is 1/2 as likely per mile travelled to
    be involved in a pedestrian fatality accident as a motorist, and 1/10 as likely as a motorcyclist
    (and 1/14 as likely as a bus driver).

    The child data show different results, perhaps because:

    1) Child pedestrians interact with child cyclists.

    2) Off road incidents on shared use paths.

    Simon

  17. Colin Blackburn said:

    If anyone is cycling in that area and they fancy stopping for a cuppa at my place (on a small road
    between Blanchland and Rookhope) then just let us know by email beforehand and if I'm in you'd be
    most welcome to stop by. I should also promote the White Monk tearooms down in Blanchland as a stop---
    though avoid summer weekends.

    So you can't be far from that wonderfully named place - "Dead Friars"!

  18. Danny Colyer said:
    anonymous coward said:

    Lots of installations are wildly inaccurate - just look at some of the average speeds posted on
    alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent.

    Can you justify that comment?

    No - not on an individual basis. But Google the list and you'll find the same sentiment expressed
    there from time to time. I wouldn't be surprised if my bike was 10% out or more - tiny wheels,
    variable pressure in the tyres etc etc.

    Quoted message said:

    You almost seem to be suggesting that if someone's computer records higher speeds than yours it
    must mean that their computer is incorrectly calibrated. Perhaps it's just that the bikes really
    are faster.

    This wasn't my intention - especially as I prefer recumbents myself. Though IMO the speed thing is a
    bit of a red-herring. For me, the 'recumbent advantage' is in the comfort & fun factors - not the
    aerodynamic one. I'll admit that it was the promise of higher speeds with less effort that got me
    into recumbents, though.

  19. On Wed, 25 Feb 2004 10:47:28 -0000, "Dave Larrington"
    <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    <[email hidden]>:

    Quoted message said:

    1. All my recumbents have a chainguard of the sort pictured here:
    hpvelotechnik.comindex e.html, and

    I tried to buy one at York last year but nobody seemed interested.

    --
    Guy
    ===
    May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
    chapmancentral.demon.co.ukchapmancentral.demon.co.uk

    88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University

  20. On Wed, 25 Feb 2004 20:20:10 -0000, "Danny Colyer"
    <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    <[email hidden]>:

    Quoted message said:

    most 2WD drive cars these days are supposed to be designed to scoop up peds and to have a minimum
    of protrusions, but the bumper's still ideally positioned to break a leg.

    Which is indeed the single largest figure in the table: fracture of lower leg including ankle.

    --
    Guy
    ===
    May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
    chapmancentral.demon.co.ukchapmancentral.demon.co.uk

    88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University

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