Speedplays vs BeBops

Solomander said:

I have been a happy Bebop user for a long time, but have had some knee
pain for about a year. It wasn't caused by riding, but riding
exacerbates it sometimes. Grinding or standing up hills seems to
worsen it. I have recently begin to wonder if using clipless pedals
is a contributor. I am going to ride a bike with step on pedals for a
few weeks as an experiment, but am also considering trying a different
kind of pedal to see if that helps. BeBops have a lot of float and
have been heretofore seemed very comfortable. It looks like
Speedplays have a lot of float, too. I am wondering if anybody knows
if there are any siginificant differences between the way these pedals
work or fit. If so, I might try switching. I am not interested in
the kind of pedals that really lock your foot in, as that will
probably make things worse. Also, I like to use MTB shoes so that I
can walk comfortably. Any suggestions?

Have you seen someone about a bike fit? Switching to any pedal system can
induce knee pain due to the different position the pedal yields, if other
geometry parameters are not compensated, for example cleat position and saddle
height.

Dan

On Mar 8, 8:47 am, Dan Connelly <d_j_c_o_n_n_e_l@y_a_h_o_o_._c_o_m>

Quoted message said:

Solomander said:

I have been a happy Bebop user for a long time, but have had some knee
pain for about a year. It wasn't caused by riding, but riding
exacerbates it sometimes. Grinding or standing up hills seems to
worsen it. I have recently begin to wonder if using clipless pedals
is a contributor. I am going to ride a bike with step on pedals for a
few weeks as an experiment, but am also considering trying a different
kind of pedal to see if that helps. BeBops have a lot of float and
have been heretofore seemed very comfortable. It looks like
Speedplays have a lot of float, too. I am wondering if anybody knows
if there are any siginificant differences between the way these pedals
work or fit. If so, I might try switching. I am not interested in
the kind of pedals that really lock your foot in, as that will
probably make things worse. Also, I like to use MTB shoes so that I
can walk comfortably. Any suggestions?

Have you seen someone about a bike fit? Switching to any pedal system can
induce knee pain due to the different position the pedal yields, if other
geometry parameters are not compensated, for example cleat position and saddle
height.

Dan

Thanks for the suggestion. My seating position on my bike has been
the same for 6 or 7 years. I guess that it's possible that the
position isn't perfect and that over time it has gradually caused a
knee problem, but I find that hard to believe. I guess it can't hurt
to get it checked. I just bought a new bike and put old style MKS
pedals on it, just to see if it made a difference. The position is
about KOPS and the saddle height is the same. I guess that I will
play around with my new bike and see if there is a difference between
BeBops and touring pedals. If there is, that's the answer, if there
isn't, I guess that I will re-evaluate my fit.

In article <[email hidden]>,

Solomander said:

I have been a happy Bebop user for a long time, but have had some
knee pain for about a year. It wasn't caused by riding, but riding
exacerbates it sometimes. Grinding or standing up hills seems to
worsen it. I have recently begin to wonder if using clipless pedals
is a contributor. I am going to ride a bike with step on pedals for
a few weeks as an experiment, but am also considering trying a
different kind of pedal to see if that helps. BeBops have a lot of
float and have been heretofore seemed very comfortable. It looks
like Speedplays have a lot of float, too. I am wondering if anybody
knows if there are any siginificant differences between the way these
pedals work or fit. If so, I might try switching. I am not
interested in the kind of pedals that really lock your foot in, as
that will probably make things worse. Also, I like to use MTB shoes
so that I can walk comfortably. Any suggestions?

Thanks for any info that you may have.

Bebops have tended to have a problem with the cleat plate bending.
That's the only bad thing I have heard about them but it can be
significant if it changes the position of your leg enough to irritate
something.

Speedplay Frogs have been quite reliable for me and are the pedals I use
on all my bikes but one (that one has old Campy pedals and PowerGrips).
I have used Speedplay pedals since 1994.

I too had knee pain a few years ago when riding. It turned out to be a
torn medial meniscus, which arthroscopic surgery has improved quite a
bit. I still get a little knee pain but almost never when riding. That
is my roundabout way of saying "go see an orthopedist" about your knee
and make sure you do not have any structural problems. Treatment might
be available, and if not then knowing what the problem is might lead
towards an adaptation to your bike, pedals, cleats, shoes etc.

Good luck!

Solomander said:

I have been a happy Bebop user for a long time, but have had some knee
pain for about a year. It wasn't caused by riding, but riding
exacerbates it sometimes. Grinding or standing up hills seems to
worsen it. I have recently begin to wonder if using clipless pedals
is a contributor. I am going to ride a bike with step on pedals for a
few weeks as an experiment, but am also considering trying a different
kind of pedal to see if that helps. BeBops have a lot of float and
have been heretofore seemed very comfortable. It looks like
Speedplays have a lot of float, too.

Beebop and Speedplay X series are very similar but Speedplay Zeros are
different in that they have adjustable float, either direction of up
to 7.5 degrees. Lots of float does not mean no pain, No gfloat doesn't
either. i would suggest a bike fit that includes a cleat fit before
you buy anything.

I am wondering if anybody knows

Quoted message said:

if there are any siginificant differences between the way these pedals
work or fit. If so, I might try switching. I am not interested in
the kind of pedals that really lock your foot in, as that will
probably make things worse. Also, I like to use MTB shoes so that I
can walk comfortably. Any suggestions?

Sppedplay Frogs or Time Atac.

Quoted message said:

Thanks for any info that you may have.

Joel Solomon

Tim McNamara said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Solomander said:

I have been a happy Bebop user for a long time, but have had some
knee pain for about a year. It wasn't caused by riding, but riding
exacerbates it sometimes. Grinding or standing up hills seems to
worsen it. I have recently begin to wonder if using clipless pedals
is a contributor. I am going to ride a bike with step on pedals for
a few weeks as an experiment, but am also considering trying a
different kind of pedal to see if that helps. BeBops have a lot of
float and have been heretofore seemed very comfortable. It looks
like Speedplays have a lot of float, too. I am wondering if anybody
knows if there are any siginificant differences between the way these
pedals work or fit. If so, I might try switching. I am not
interested in the kind of pedals that really lock your foot in, as
that will probably make things worse. Also, I like to use MTB shoes
so that I can walk comfortably. Any suggestions?

Quoted message said:

Thanks for any info that you may have.

Bebops have tended to have a problem with the cleat plate bending.
That's the only bad thing I have heard about them but it can be
significant if it changes the position of your leg enough to irritate
something.

Speedplay Frogs have been quite reliable for me and are the pedals I use
on all my bikes but one (that one has old Campy pedals and PowerGrips).
I have used Speedplay pedals since 1994.

I too had knee pain a few years ago when riding. It turned out to be a
torn medial meniscus, which arthroscopic surgery has improved quite a
bit. I still get a little knee pain but almost never when riding. That
is my roundabout way of saying "go see an orthopedist" about your knee
and make sure you do not have any structural problems. Treatment might
be available, and if not then knowing what the problem is might lead
towards an adaptation to your bike, pedals, cleats, shoes etc.

Good luck!- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Thanks for the suggestion. I have already seen an orthopod, had an
mri with the usual nonspecific partial ligament damage that most
physically active middle aged men have and been through a round of
PT. My orthopedist just told me to do what's comfortable and not
worry about it.

Solomander said:

Quoted message said:

Have you seen someone about a bike fit? Switching to any pedal system can
induce knee pain due to the different position the pedal yields, if other
geometry parameters are not compensated, for example cleat position and saddle
height.

Dan

Thanks for the suggestion. My seating position on my bike has been
the same for 6 or 7 years. I guess that it's possible that the
position isn't perfect and that over time it has gradually caused a
knee problem, but I find that hard to believe. I guess it can't hurt
to get it checked. I just bought a new bike and put old style MKS
pedals on it, just to see if it made a difference. The position is
about KOPS and the saddle height is the same. I guess that I will
play around with my new bike and see if there is a difference between
BeBops and touring pedals. If there is, that's the answer, if there
isn't, I guess that I will re-evaluate my fit.

Each different pedal changes your position, due to a different foot-to-axle
spacing, and of course cleat position is going to be different unless you're
explicitly careful in replacing them.

Dan

Quoted message said:

"Solomander" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I have been a happy Bebop user for a long time,

You have the best, most knee-friendly pedals ever made. I have 3 pairs, and
I'm about to buy a couple more pairs.

Quoted message said:

but have had some knee
pain for about a year. It wasn't caused by riding, but riding
exacerbates it sometimes. Grinding or standing up hills seems to
worsen it.

I know these symptoms very well, because I always get them when I'm too hard
on my knees. In my case, my legs are much stronger than my knees can
tolerate. I can grind up hills and hammer in the sprints; but my knees can't
take it. It sounds like we have similar knee issues. What you need to do
is go easy. Let your knees heal by riding less, and spinning more.
Immediately stop the grinding and out-of-saddle sprinting, and your knee
pain will subside. Take it from me: If you keep it up, it could get much
more painful, and you may miss quite a bit of riding during the season. Let
your knees rest now, and ride when they're healed.

Aside from easing off, the next thing I'd do is check your saddle height and
fore-aft position. A few mm adjustment can really make a difference for
sensitive knees (again, ask me how I know).

Quoted message said:

I have recently begin to wonder if using clipless pedals
is a contributor.

If you were riding spring-loaded or non-floating pedals, I'd be inclined to
think it was possible. If you're riding BeBops, there's just about no way
that it could be your pedals causing the problem. My knees are only happy
when I ride BeBops (or plain platform pedals without clips). I get knee
pain almost immediately when I ride SPD's (no matter how carefully I set
them up).

Quoted message said:

I am going to ride a bike with step on pedals for a
few weeks as an experiment, but am also considering trying a different
kind of pedal to see if that helps.

Sure, if you like; but pedal setup is very important, so try to control for
that. Also, you'll need to log some long miles if you really want to compare
pedals. You already have the most knee-friendly pedals on the planet, IMO.

Quoted message said:

BeBops have a lot of float and
have been heretofore seemed very comfortable. It looks like
Speedplays have a lot of float, too. I am wondering if anybody knows
if there are any siginificant differences between the way these pedals
work or fit.

Not much. Speedplay and BeBop are so similar that they have mutual patent
licensing agreements. If BeBops didn't exist, I'd probably switch to
Speedplay X's.

Quoted message said:

If so, I might try switching. I am not interested in
the kind of pedals that really lock your foot in, as that will
probably make things worse.

Precisely. That rules out 97% of the pedals on the market.

Quoted message said:

Also, I like to use MTB shoes so that I
can walk comfortably. Any suggestions?

Me too. I always ride with MTB shoes.

Quoted message said:

Thanks for any info that you may have.

I hope my suggestions are helpful. Go easy on those knees, my friend.

rocketman said:

If you were riding spring-loaded or non-floating pedals, I'd be inclined to
think it was possible. If you're riding BeBops, there's just about no way
that it could be your pedals causing the problem.

Speedplays and Bebops have a lot of rotational float, but they still
lack lateral movement, which Time has a small amount of. Time is the
only system I know of that has this degree of freedom.

Quoted message said:

rocketman said:

If you were riding spring-loaded or non-floating pedals, I'd be inclined to
think it was possible. If you're riding BeBops, there's just about no way
that it could be your pedals causing the problem.

Speedplays and Bebops have a lot of rotational float, but they still
lack lateral movement, which Time has a small amount of. Time is the
only system I know of that has this degree of freedom.

Why on earth do you lateral movement? I have some Time Atac XC on my
ATB. They should have some mm lateral movement but once you are clipped
in nothing happens in the lateral direction anymore. Marketing BS if you
ask me.

Lou
--
Posted by news://news.nb.nu (http://www.nb.nu)

Lou Holtman said:

Why on earth do you lateral movement? I have some Time Atac XC on my
ATB. They should have some mm lateral movement but once you are clipped
in nothing happens in the lateral direction anymore. Marketing BS if you
ask me.

If you neglect to set up lateral cleat position, lateral float allows avoidance
of knee pain. The solution, of course, is to set up lateral cleat position with
someone who knows what they're doing...

Dan

Dan Connelly said:

Lou Holtman said:

Why on earth do you lateral movement? I have some Time Atac XC on my
ATB. They should have some mm lateral movement but once you are
clipped in nothing happens in the lateral direction anymore. Marketing
BS if you ask me.

If you neglect to set up lateral cleat position, lateral float allows
avoidance of knee pain.

You know we are talking about 2.5 mm of lateral float for Time road
pedals? For MTB it is 5 mm, but once clipped in there is no free lateral
float anymore.

Lou
--
Posted by news://news.nb.nu (http://www.nb.nu)

Lou Holtman said:

Dan Connelly said:

Lou Holtman wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Why on earth do you lateral movement? I have some Time Atac XC on my
ATB. They should have some mm lateral movement but once you are
clipped in nothing happens in the lateral direction anymore. Marketing
BS if you ask me.

Quoted message said:

If you neglect to set up lateral cleat position, lateral float allows
avoidance of knee pain.

You know we are talking about 2.5 mm of lateral float for Time road
pedals? For MTB it is 5 mm, but once clipped in there is no free lateral
float anymore.

Lou
--
Posted by news://news.nb.nu (http://www.nb.nu)

Equipe have about 10mm of lateral float I think. Maybe just 5mm.
Feels more like 10mm though. As for setting up lateral cleat
position, the person who wrote that has never seen a Time Equipe
pedal. He must have started riding a bike long after LeMond,
Indurain, Ullrich, Pantani used the Equipe in their successful Tour
rides. Only adjustment with Equipe cleats is forward and back. No
side to side. Lateral movement of the pedal most likely compensates
for the inability to move the cleats on the shoes sideways.

Quoted message said:

Lou Holtman said:

Dan Connelly said:

Lou Holtman wrote:
> Why on earth do you lateral movement? I have some Time Atac XC on my
> ATB. They should have some mm lateral movement but once you are
> clipped in nothing happens in the lateral direction anymore. Marketing
> BS if you ask me.
If you neglect to set up lateral cleat position, lateral float allows
avoidance of knee pain.

You know we are talking about 2.5 mm of lateral float for Time road
pedals? For MTB it is 5 mm, but once clipped in there is no free lateral
float anymore.

Lou
--
Posted by news://news.nb.nu (http://www.nb.nu)

Equipe have about 10mm of lateral float I think. Maybe just 5mm.
Feels more like 10mm though. As for setting up lateral cleat
position, the person who wrote that has never seen a Time Equipe
pedal. He must have started riding a bike long after LeMond,
Indurain, Ullrich, Pantani used the Equipe in their successful Tour
rides. Only adjustment with Equipe cleats is forward and back. No
side to side. Lateral movement of the pedal most likely compensates
for the inability to move the cleats on the shoes sideways.

You misunderstood my point, which was precisely what you said: If you don't set
up the lateral cleat position on a pedal WITHOUT LATERAL FLOAT, then going to a
Time pedal might help. This does not advocate switching pedals, or even
selecting pedals on this basis, but rather advocates properly setting your cleat
position, which is a natural component of a proper bike fit (you're not going to
skip the need for a bike fit by using Times...)

Dan

Dan Connelly said:

Quoted message said:

Lou Holtman said:

Dan Connelly wrote:
> Lou Holtman wrote:
>> Why on earth do you lateral movement? I have some Time Atac XC on my
>> ATB. They should have some mm lateral movement but once you are
>> clipped in nothing happens in the lateral direction anymore. Marketing
>> BS if you ask me.
> If you neglect to set up lateral cleat position, lateral float allows
> avoidance of knee pain.
You know we are talking about 2.5 mm of lateral float for Time road
pedals? For MTB it is 5 mm, but once clipped in there is no free lateral
float anymore.

Lou
--
Posted by news://news.nb.nu (http://www.nb.nu)

Equipe have about 10mm of lateral float I think. Maybe just 5mm.
Feels more like 10mm though. As for setting up lateral cleat
position, the person who wrote that has never seen a Time Equipe
pedal. He must have started riding a bike long after LeMond,
Indurain, Ullrich, Pantani used the Equipe in their successful Tour
rides. Only adjustment with Equipe cleats is forward and back. No
side to side. Lateral movement of the pedal most likely compensates
for the inability to move the cleats on the shoes sideways.

You misunderstood my point, which was precisely what you said: If you
don't set up the lateral cleat position on a pedal WITHOUT LATERAL
FLOAT, then going to a Time pedal might help. This does not advocate
switching pedals, or even selecting pedals on this basis, but rather
advocates properly setting your cleat position, which is a natural
component of a proper bike fit (you're not going to skip the need for a
bike fit by using Times...)

Quoted message said:

Dan

How do you determine the proper lateral cleat position?

Lou
--
Posted by news://news.nb.nu (http://www.nb.nu)

Lou Holtman said:

How do you determine the proper lateral cleat position?

Lou

Proper lateral knee position is the one which allows the knee to track a
straight line. But it's dependent on fore-aft position.

Dan

On Wed, 14 Mar 2007 12:43:24 GMT, Dan Connelly

d_j_c_o_n_n_e_l@y_a_h_o_o_._c_o_m said:

Lou Holtman said:

How do you determine the proper lateral cleat position?

Lou

Proper lateral knee position is the one which allows the knee to track a
straight line. But it's dependent on fore-aft position.

Dan

and angle. I naturally walk with my feet splayed.
SPDs, it isn't an issue.
KeOs, I couldn't get my seat height right until I angled the cleats.

Aeek said:

On Wed, 14 Mar 2007 12:43:24 GMT, Dan Connelly

d_j_c_o_n_n_e_l@y_a_h_o_o_._c_o_m said:

Lou Holtman said:

How do you determine the proper lateral cleat position?

Lou

Proper lateral knee position is the one which allows the knee to track a
straight line. But it's dependent on fore-aft position.

Dan

and angle. I naturally walk with my feet splayed.
SPDs, it isn't an issue.
KeOs, I couldn't get my seat height right until I angled the cleats.

Well, while Time users don't worry about lateral position, I suppose as a
Speedplay user (and before that, Time) I haven't worried about angle...

But good point.

Dan