Spoke length question

"Joel" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I used Spocalc to calculate spoke length for a rear wheel using 28H
velocity Aerohead OC rim,
Shimano Ultegra 9S hub, 3X lacing. I came up the following nymbers:

cross left length right length
3 295.4 294.6

I went to look for some DT spokes 295 and 296mm, but 295mm is not a
standard size.
So should I use 294/296 or 296 all around? I know most people would use
2X for 28H rim but I am reusing a hub that was laced 3X.

Thanks - Joel

I just built a 28 hole OC rear that was 3x. It works really well. We used
294/296 spokes. You will not go wrong with those lengths.

Bruce

OK, thanks Bruce.

Joel said:

I used Spocalc to calculate spoke length for a rear wheel using 28H
velocity Aerohead OC rim,
Shimano Ultegra 9S hub, 3X lacing. I came up the following nymbers:

cross left length right length
3 295.4 294.6

I went to look for some DT spokes 295 and 296mm, but 295mm is not a
standard size.

Dt spokes are made in every length, 1mm increments. 295 isn't any less
'standard' as any other length from about 220 thru 315 or so.

Quoted message said:

So should I use 294/296 or 296 all around? I know most people would use
2X for 28H rim but I am reusing a hub that was laced 3X.

Thanks - Joel

No, instead of using whatever spoke source that don't have a complete
range of spokes, use one that does, like vecchio's or Yellowjersey. MO
does not a 'standard' make. Use 296/5 for youre build. Build head out
or inside pulling.

You are right. I did find 295mm.
It seems some shops skip this size for some reason.

Joel

Joel said:

You are right. I did find 295mm.
It seems some shops skip this size for some reason.

Joel

It's easier/less expensive to stock less lengths and rarely is there any true benefit to have precision down to a mm. However, if they available and don't cost more, get the ones that are precisely right.
Spokes have ~ 10 mm thread. Standard nipples are 12 mm in length. ~ 3 mm of the top of the nipple bore is not threaded. It is best to not run the nipple up to the point where the threads are poking out the bottom of the nipple.
Some spoke calculators compensate for vaianiances in spoke hole diameter and spoke stretch. If you are going for that last 1 mm of precision, make sure that you have that precision built into the calculator, and actual measurements of rim ERD, etc.

Quoted message said:

Joel said:

I used Spocalc to calculate spoke length for a rear

wheel using 28H

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

velocity Aerohead OC rim,
Shimano Ultegra 9S hub, 3X lacing. I came up the following nymbers:
cross left length right length
3 295.4 294.6
I went to look for some DT spokes 295 and 296mm, but 295mm is not a
standard size.

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

Dt spokes are made in every length, 1mm increments. 295 isn't any less
'standard' as any other length from about 220 thru 315 or so.

Quoted message said:

Joel said:

So should I use 294/296 or 296 all around? I know most people would use
2X for 28H rim but I am reusing a hub that was laced 3X.

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

No, instead of using whatever spoke source that don't have a complete
range of spokes, use one that does, like vecchio's or Yellowjersey. MO
does not a 'standard' make. Use 296/5 for youre build. Build head out
or inside pulling.

Thanks for the kind words but we buy even sizes from 288 to
300 in 1000/packs. I do not believe a compromise of 1.0mm
is significant to wheelbuilding. Let's get real here - you
are talking about the bottom of the nipple slot versus the
end of the nipple.

Sure, I cut 295 (from 298 - touchy on a 296!) without
complaint for riders who ask nicely - I am not a jerk on the
subject. But I wouldn't - didn't - hesitate on my own
wheels for a moment to add 0.9 or 0.6 mm to the "ideal" length.

So I would build 296-296. And I would also cut 295 if you
don't agree with me that it's insignificant.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

daveornee said:

Joel said:

You are right. I did find 295mm.
It seems some shops skip this size for some reason.

Joel

It's easier/less expensive to stock less lengths and rarely is there
any true benefit to have precision down to a mm.

Disagree and somewhat surprised you say this. I guess the difference
between people that build wheels and a 'wheelbuilder'. Sure a shorter
or longer than exactly right will 'work', so will poor builds get you
down the road but it's the principal of the thing. If a shop adverts as
a place that does custom wheels, it better have the spokes. IMHO.

However, if they

Quoted message said:

available and don't cost more, get the ones that are precisely right.
Spokes have ~ 10 mm thread. Standard nipples are 12 mm in length. ~ 3
mm of the top of the nipple bore is not threaded. It is best to not run
the nipple up to the point where the threads are poking out the bottom
of the nipple.
Some spoke calculators compensate for vaianiances in spoke hole
diameter and spoke stretch. If you are going for that last 1 mm of
precision, make sure that you have that precision built into the
calculator, and actual measurements of rim ERD, etc.

--
daveornee

quote='Qui si parla Campagnolo'daveornee said:

Joel said:

You are right. I did find 295mm.
It seems some shops skip this size for some reason.

Joel

It's easier/less expensive to stock less lengths and rarely is there
any true benefit to have precision down to a mm.

Disagree and somewhat surprised you say this. I guess the difference
between people that build wheels and a 'wheelbuilder'. Sure a shorter
or longer than exactly right will 'work', so will poor builds get you
down the road but it's the principal of the thing. If a shop adverts as
a place that does custom wheels, it better have the spokes. IMHO.

However, if they

Quoted message said:

available and don't cost more, get the ones that are precisely right.
Spokes have ~ 10 mm thread. Standard nipples are 12 mm in length. ~ 3
mm of the top of the nipple bore is not threaded. It is best to not run
the nipple up to the point where the threads are poking out the bottom
of the nipple.
Some spoke calculators compensate for vaianiances in spoke hole
diameter and spoke stretch. If you are going for that last 1 mm of
precision, make sure that you have that precision built into the
calculator, and actual measurements of rim ERD, etc.

--
daveornee

[/quote]
The part that you snipped out from my reply said: "get the ones that are precisely right".
It would be nice to have the precise length insured and available down to 1.0 mm. However, spocalc doesn't always insure that you will have the precise length due variances in spokes (2.0 straight guage to 15/16 g) , tension used, rims, nipples, worn hubs, etc.
Are you saying the Yellow Jersey employs "people that build wheels" and your shop has the claim to "wheelbuilder(s)"?

Joel said:

I went to look for some DT spokes 295 and 296mm, but 295mm is not a
standard size.

You can buy all the 295s you like. Maybe your source only sells even
sizes. In your case, 296s on both sides will work fine.

Joel said:

I used Spocalc to calculate spoke length for a rear wheel using 28H
velocity Aerohead OC rim,
Shimano Ultegra 9S hub, 3X lacing. I came up the following nymbers:

cross left length right length
3 295.4 294.6

I went to look for some DT spokes 295 and 296mm, but 295mm is not a
standard size.
So should I use 294/296 or 296 all around? I know most people would use
2X for 28H rim but I am reusing a hub that was laced 3X.

Thanks - Joel

There's something I can't figure out about the responses threads like
this get and the way people figure spoke length out: some same-brand
spoke and nipple combinations give the spoke near-zero or zero
protrusion out of the top of the nipple. The Wheelsmiths I've used give
about .5-.7mm, and I dont know if this varies. Others give even less -
I have some Sapims sitting in front me of where the spoke won't thread
past the bottom of the nipple slot. In all these cases, you're
absolutely screwed if you round up and build the wheel... or even if
you don't round down enough to compensate for spoke stretch and rim
compression. DT's usually allow for somewhat large amounts of
protrusion, 1-1.5mm, but I'm not sure if they always do, or if the
amount they allow for is always the same. I think I've seen some
variance with DT's but I'm not sure.

Also, compression and stretch are frequently ignored, even though
they're substantial and vary with different rims and spoke gauges
(especially the latter). Compression can be up to 2mm in diameter,
depending muchly on the rim's cross-sectional area, and spoke stretch
is usually in the .4-.5 ballpark with road-length 2.0/1.8's, .5-.6 with
1.6's, and can get up to the .6-.7mm range with 1.5mm spokes that are
tensioned as much as they really should be (more than they usually
are).

So basically, my impression from looking at these numbers and building
a number of wheels but not really being in the game that long, is that
rounding up, or even rounding down by smallish amounts, without knowing
how much protrusion the spoke/nipple combo allows and how much
compression and stretch there will be is a guessing game. I'm pretty
sure that in this case the 295 DT's would work for the left because
they allow protrusion, but .4mm isn't enough of a margin to compensate
for stretch alone on a 2.0/1.8 or skinnier spoke with a brand that
doesn't have any protrusion - which means that 295 wouldn't work.

It seems like if not for the fact that DT spokes are somewhat forgiving
about all of this, that people would have to be a lot more exacting
when they give spoke length advice - which is fine, except for the fact
that I've never seen this stated, which could lead to confusion.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Joel Wrote:
>You are right. I did find 295mm.
>It seems some shops skip this size for some reason.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

daveornee said:

It's easier/less expensive to stock less lengths and rarely is there
any true benefit to have precision down to a mm.

Quoted message said:

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

Disagree and somewhat surprised you say this. I guess the difference
between people that build wheels and a 'wheelbuilder'. Sure a shorter
or longer than exactly right will 'work', so will poor builds get you
down the road but it's the principal of the thing. If a shop adverts
as
a place that does custom wheels, it better have the spokes. IMHO.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

daveornee wrote:
However, if they

Quoted message said:

available and don't cost more, get the ones that are precisely

right.

Quoted message said:

Spokes have ~ 10 mm thread. Standard nipples are 12 mm in length. ~

3

Quoted message said:

mm of the top of the nipple bore is not threaded. It is best to not

run

Quoted message said:

the nipple up to the point where the threads are poking out the

bottom

Quoted message said:

of the nipple.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

daveornee said:

Some spoke calculators compensate for vaianiances in spoke hole
diameter and spoke stretch. If you are going for that last 1 mm of
precision, make sure that you have that precision built into the
calculator, and actual measurements of rim ERD, etc.

daveornee said:

The part that you snipped out from my reply said: "get the ones that
are precisely right".
It would be nice to have the precise length insured and available down
to 1.0 mm. However, spocalc doesn't always insure that you will have
the precise length due variances in spokes (2.0 straight guage to 15/16
g) , tension used, rims, nipples, worn hubs, etc.
Are you saying the Yellow Jersey employs "people that build wheels" and
your shop has the claim to "wheelbuilder(s)"?

What makes 1mm sacred?
When we used Torrington spokes as our main brand, we stocked
spokes by 1/32-inch (0.79mm). That's _less_ than 1mm per
size, viz:
11-17/32=296.2
11-5/8=295.3
11-15/32=294.7
11-9/16=293.9
etc
Does that mean a guy using another brand (in those days)
only available in 1/16-inch (1.58mm) was at a disadvantage??

Like the quip about god's word being written in the King's
English, the fact that your spoke software can resolve to a
tenth doesn't mean you should polish spokes down to 294.9
from 295 to make a 'better' wheel. The number itself is not
sacred.

If I felt there was any benefit to our customers or staff
I'd buy the intermediate mm - there is _zero_ cost
difference to us. And if it made my wheels better by even 1%
I would be willing to do whatever's required.

As I asked before, do you feel strongly about the diffrence
between the bottom of the slit and the end of the nipple?

That's the range we're talking about here.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Quoted message said:

Joel said:

I went to look for some DT spokes 295 and 296mm, but 295mm is not a
standard size.

Paul Kopit said:

You can buy all the 295s you like. Maybe your source only sells even
sizes. In your case, 296s on both sides will work fine.

Agreed.

I often find the path of least resistance to trim a 1/2 set
of spokes down to 295 rather than jump into a long
discussion. But really! One millimeter!

If your local shop had 293-295-297-299 instead of
292-294-296-298, build it 295-295.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

daveornee said:

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

daveornee said:

Joel Wrote:
> You are right. I did find 295mm.
> It seems some shops skip this size for some reason.
>
> Joel
It's easier/less expensive to stock less lengths and rarely is there
any true benefit to have precision down to a mm.

Disagree and somewhat surprised you say this. I guess the difference
between people that build wheels and a 'wheelbuilder'. Sure a shorter
or longer than exactly right will 'work', so will poor builds get you
down the road but it's the principal of the thing. If a shop adverts
as
a place that does custom wheels, it better have the spokes. IMHO.

However, if they

Quoted message said:

available and don't cost more, get the ones that are precisely

right.

Quoted message said:

Spokes have ~ 10 mm thread. Standard nipples are 12 mm in length. ~

3

Quoted message said:

mm of the top of the nipple bore is not threaded. It is best to not

run

Quoted message said:

the nipple up to the point where the threads are poking out the

bottom

Quoted message said:

of the nipple.
Some spoke calculators compensate for vaianiances in spoke hole
diameter and spoke stretch. If you are going for that last 1 mm of
precision, make sure that you have that precision built into the
calculator, and actual measurements of rim ERD, etc.

--
daveornee

The part that you snipped out from my reply said: "get the ones that
are precisely right".
It would be nice to have the precise length insured and available down
to 1.0 mm. However, spocalc doesn't always insure that you will have
the precise length due variances in spokes (2.0 straight guage to 15/16
g) , tension used, rims, nipples, worn hubs, etc.
Are you saying the Yellow Jersey employs "people that build wheels" and
your shop has the claim to "wheelbuilder(s)"?

--
daveornee

I guess anybody that builds a lot of wheels ought to get a better spoc
calculation program as well. Wheelsmith computer does a great job.

A Muzi said:

Quoted message said:

Joel said:

I used Spocalc to calculate spoke length for a rear

wheel using 28H

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

velocity Aerohead OC rim,
Shimano Ultegra 9S hub, 3X lacing. I came up the following nymbers:
cross left length right length
3 295.4 294.6
I went to look for some DT spokes 295 and 296mm, but 295mm is not a
standard size.

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

Dt spokes are made in every length, 1mm increments. 295 isn't any less
'standard' as any other length from about 220 thru 315 or so.

Quoted message said:

Joel said:

So should I use 294/296 or 296 all around? I know most people would use
2X for 28H rim but I am reusing a hub that was laced 3X.

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

No, instead of using whatever spoke source that don't have a complete
range of spokes, use one that does, like vecchio's or Yellowjersey. MO
does not a 'standard' make. Use 296/5 for youre build. Build head out
or inside pulling.

Thanks for the kind words but we buy even sizes from 288 to
300 in 1000/packs. I do not believe a compromise of 1.0mm
is significant to wheelbuilding. Let's get real here - you
are talking about the bottom of the nipple slot versus the
end of the nipple.

Sure, I cut 295 (from 298 - touchy on a 296!) without
complaint for riders who ask nicely - I am not a jerk on the
subject. But I wouldn't - didn't - hesitate on my own
wheels for a moment to add 0.9 or 0.6 mm to the "ideal" length.

So I would build 296-296. And I would also cut 295 if you
don't agree with me that it's insignificant.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

This has gotten interesting in that it started for me anyway,when the
OP said '295 wasn't a standard size', which is hooey, of course. I
think this is in the arena of the 'proper part for the job', the
principal of it. A local shop, on a new Serotta, installed a double
Ultegra front der onto a triple setup. It worked ok, but it just isn't
proper. I could use 296/8 on an OpenPro, but they are a wee bit too
long, so I use 295/297...cuz I have them, along with every MM from 258
or so thru 306. Initial buy, 6 years ago, no more expense.

Just me, what I think is proper. Do others build good wheels using even
sizes? sure, but I'll use odd sizes if Mr Wheelsmith says I ought to.

For Mr Ornee..No you said what you said about Yellowjersey, not me.