spoke nipples?

Quoted message said:

Well, you are right that stress relieving will not make it "completely" stress free . See
lanl.govalum.htmlOpen ↗ , in that case the residual stresses were only 90%
relieved, which is about the best you can do with that type of aluminum alloy plate.

75mm thick annealed then 3% rolled aluminum plate and 2mm high tensile stainless wire are about as
similar as tomato & prime rib. the rib & tomato are both red & tasty, but the similarity ends there.
and, with respect, this whole debate seems to be confusing strain with stress. the example cited
describes /straining/ a sample that has a low percentage of cold work to a slightly higher
percentage in order to make the material uniformly strained throughout and thereby mitigate
distortion effects for machining precision aerospace components.

yes, the alloy block has measurable "stress" [elastic strain] due to it's non-uniformity, but it's
simply not possible to make a direct comparision between that most undoubtedly "macro" elastic
distortion and the profound microstrucure changes wrought on a wire that has been strained 100% or
more by pulling it through a die!

Quoted message said:

Stresses are stored elastically in the crystal lattice. Under tensile stress, the lattice planes
are farther apart, etc. Basic elasticity. That is why x-ray and neutron diffraction can measure
residual stress by only measuring the lattice spacing without having to measure information about
dislocations.

correct. the measuring methods you describe will /only/ measure elastic stress, it's not a measure
dislocation density, the result of cold work.

but i still don't see where this argument is trying to go; the mechanical properties of the spoke,
particularly its fatigue characteristics, are the direct result of its composition, physical nature,
microstructure, dislocation density and its physical processing. every time i put a fatigued spoke's
fracture surface under the microscope and can see a crack initiating at a surface defect,
particularly when we're talking about a material that has *no* inherent fatigue endurance limit like
stainless steel, i have difficulty understanding why anyone would want to argue that plastically
straining the material further at this point is somehow going to make this crack initiator go away
or that its going to change a material's intrinic properties.

Quoted message said:

When you anneal or thermally stress relieve a material you will reduce both stresses and
dislocations. But when you stress relieve by putting in uniform plastic deformation, you can
relive stress at the same time you increase cold work.

but we're not achieving uniform plastic deformation here. a 1% _strain_ on a 294mm spoke will take
it up to 297mm, unusable for it's original intent. there is no measurable plastic strain caused by
"stress relief" of a spoke. if you're talking local strain, that's a whole different ball of wax
from the 75mm plate example and if anything, small scale local strain is more likely to initiate
fatigue than mitigate it.

Quoted message said:

There is a vast literature on stress relief BY cold work. They are most certainly not the
same thing.

that's the truth!

jb

terry's right in that the loose spokes break much more frequently, but technically, you both have a
point because /both/ can and do break.

i meant to say this yesterday: stainless steeel has no inherant fatigue endurance limit. you can
mitigate by trying to eliminate surface defects from processing and inclusions from good material
control, but ultimately, it's not possible to completely make it go away. all you can do is push it
way out along the "n" axis of the fatigue graph. and good build practice effectively achieves this.

jb

Right!! the vise tools will increase the rounding but might be worth a try. a tensionometer will
eliminate some tension and doubt about pitch. everythings lubed with linseed+oil the rim, a cr-18,
and spokes lubed and new dt-14 undergo constant touring loads and tho i'm not fast I get up to
22-25mph on a smooth path with 35 pounds on the rack over 12 miles. But, probably the sidewalk slab
joints and vandals are the primary source of the untrueing with offf course and into the occasional
antique sewer grate...

so i turn 4-5 times and then all the niples are rounded out and i start filing.. our local expert,
g. schwin of schwin Fort Myers sez-the 6mm nipples and the ??4mm nipples are made from the same
brass pot BUTBUTBUT the 6mm, that I chose for its more fileable shaft has an achilles!! the
unthreaded area before the threaded area is longer on the 6 than the four thus the 6 has a more
pliable malleable shaft as less angled butt up to the spoke thread's available when the wrench bears
down on it. I thoiught that was a touring 6 butbutbut maybe not...

and the suggestion that a tiawanese manufacturer has or once upon, steel nipples. steel nipples
steel nipples. has a nice ring to it. grade 5!!!

DO STEEL NIPPLES EXIST? and off course, will a steel nipple(and i see someone beet me to it as i
logged on with a click click click post, very very very funny hehehehh) will a steel nipple gouge
the rim insert? one can lube the steel insert but for how long??

it is interesting that the major cawment is "shudn't have this problem" and not "expletive deleted
io get tired of it too" youse guys aren't getting the miles in!! and the cross country people trade
wheels and pack tired wheels off to DHL or pop into the local LBS for a demitasse and a true up!!

d'aye ze d' aye zee give me ur answer dew, Ohm half crazee over muh luv fur u berth!!!!

better better better??? than prose as rounded nipple?? wavy gravy!!!

ok, but pushed for time today, but i have a couple of questions:

1. how do residual stresses compare with stress concentration stresses.

2. how do 3-dimensional residual stresses resolve when dealing with materials the thickness of a
spoke? with high strength fibers such as graphite & glass, one of the dominant factors in their
strength is that applied strain resolves uniaxially. a spoke is not a fiber, but below 3mm the
math leans increasingly in that direction

later

j

g.daniels said:

Right!! the vise tools will increase the rounding but might be worth a try. a tensionometer will
eliminate some tension and doubt about pitch. everythings lubed with linseed+oil

Linseed oil undergoes a polymeric conversion and hardens. People use it to *stop* nipples
from turning.

Quoted message said:

the rim, a cr-18, and spokes lubed and new dt-14 undergo constant touring loads and tho i'm not
fast I get up to 22-25mph on a smooth path with 35 pounds on the rack over 12 miles. But, probably
the sidewalk slab joints and vandals are the primary source of the untrueing with offf course and
into the occasional antique sewer grate...

so i turn 4-5 times and then all the niples are rounded out and i start filing.. our local expert,
g. schwin of schwin Fort Myers sez-the 6mm nipples and the ??4mm nipples are made from the same
brass pot BUTBUTBUT the 6mm, that I chose for its more fileable shaft has an achilles!! the
unthreaded area before the threaded area is longer on the 6 than the four thus the 6 has a more
pliable malleable shaft as less angled butt up to the spoke thread's available when the wrench
bears down on it. I thoiught that was a touring 6 butbutbut maybe not...

and the suggestion that a tiawanese manufacturer has or once upon, steel nipples. steel nipples
steel nipples. has a nice ring to it. grade 5!!!

DO STEEL NIPPLES EXIST? and off course, will a steel nipple(and i see someone beet me to it as i
logged on with a click click click post, very very very funny hehehehh) will a steel nipple gouge
the rim insert? one can lube the steel insert but for how long??

If it's not stainless steel it's gonna rust/seize quickly if exposed to any moisture. As far as
stainless nipples, I think getting the threads cut would be difficult to begin with, and in use
difficult to adjust. Stainless on stainless threads under heavy tension may not turn anywhere as
nicely as the brass nipple (galling).

Quoted message said:

it is interesting that the major cawment is "shudn't have this problem" and not "expletive deleted
io get tired of it too" youse guys aren't getting the miles in!!

I used to marvel at their claims too and had my share of wheel and nipple problems. The more I've
paid attention to the recommendations and tried to put them into practice, the more success I've
had with my wheels -- the stuff works. I'm still occasionally stymied but I haven't rounded a
nipple recently.

Quoted message said:

and the cross country people trade wheels and pack tired wheels off to DHL or pop into the local
LBS for a demitasse and a true up!!

d'aye ze d' aye zee give me ur answer dew, Ohm half crazee over muh luv fur u berth!!!!

better better better??? than prose as rounded nipple?? wavy gravy!!!

John Albergo!!!!

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Linseed oil undergoes a polymeric conversion and hardens. People use it to *stop* nipples from
turning.

Hardens?? with a drop of 30 wt non detergent? or detergent? and how much breakaway torque does the
oil=linseed produce?? enough to damage a nipple surface?? maybe that adds to potential rounding
damage but the thought does recommend linseed. the mix doesn't stop nipples from turning when turned
but when ridden? maybe. or mostly.

wil linseed+oil prevent corrosion??with a steel nipple?? I see yes in practice. An eye on the
liseed+oil ‘wax' thru wet times should keep a seal over the spoke/nipple joints. linsee+oil with
steel parts exposed to the weather is excellent practice-as long as one doesn't cycle thru the
goosedown factory.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

DO STEEL NIPPLES EXIST????????????????????????????????????????????

Quoted message said:

If it's not stainless steel it's gonna rust/seize quickly if exposed to any moisture. As far as
stainless nipples, I think getting the threads cut would be difficult to begin with, and in use
difficult to adjust. Stainless on stainless threads under heavy tension may not turn anywhere as
nicely as the brass nipple (galling).

Quoted message said:

I used to marvel at their claims too and had my share of wheel and nipple problems. The more I've
paid attention to the recommendations and tried to put them into practice, the more success I've
had with my wheels -- the stuff works. I'm still occasionally stymied but I haven't rounded a
nipple recently.

what claims? what recommendations? what stuff? stymied by what?

the tool idea, that is a vice like grip the nipple but without too much pressure inward just zero
clearance for that damaging side to side wiggle or tool rock, ah TOOL ROCK!! print it. UTM… anyway,
the less clearance the better grip the less damage to the fastner surface. My local expert, G.Schwin
of Schwin FM, thought about his experience with the vice nipple tools but couldn't remember a
specific positive over the spokey-yet logic suggests an advantage by less tool rock. The mech
doesn't send the fastner out into the vacuum or doesn't want to anyway.

and the cross country people ..

jim beam <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

1. how do residual stresses compare with stress concentration stresses.

Stress concentrations require a stress to "concentrate." They will be acted on by residual stresses
just like by applied stresses. So you generally want to compare residual stresses to applied
stresses (bulk or macro or average or however you want to describe them in the general region of the
concentration) rather than concentrated stresses very local to the flaw. For fatigue crack growth,
for example, you would normally compare the stress intensity factor for applied and residual
stresses, KIapplied and KIresidual. KI is a measure of stress concentration (close enough for this
discussion anyway) that is calculated based on the applied average stress and the size of the stress
concentrator (for KI, the crack length).

The relevant difference between applied stresses and residual stresses is that applied stresses can
be cyclic. They vary over the loading cycle, such as each time a spoke is loaded and unloaded.
Residual stresses are mean stresses, they remain constant independent of the cyclic variations in
applied stress. (If the combined stresses cause yielding things do change.) Mean and cyclic stresses
have different effects on crack initiation and growth. It should be sufficient here to say that they
both are important, although mean stresses alone cannot cause fatigue failure. Cyclically loaded
parts are commonly given residual compressive stresses near the surface (e.g. by shot peening)
precisely because residual stresses do have a big effect on fatigue life.

Quoted message said:

2. how do 3-dimensional residual stresses resolve when dealing with materials the thickness of a
spoke? with high strength fibers such as graphite & glass, one of the dominant factors in their
strength is that applied strain resolves uniaxially. a spoke is not a fiber, but below 3mm the
math leans increasingly in that direction

This question does not make sense to me. You want to compare /uniaxial applied/ loading in a fiber
to /3-d residual/ stresses in a spoke. What is the point you want to make?

Quoted message said:

Stress concentrations require a stress to "concentrate." They will be acted on by residual
stresses just like by applied stresses. So you generally want to compare residual stresses to
applied stresses (bulk or macro or average or however you want to describe them in the general
region of the concentration) rather than concentrated stresses very local to the flaw. For fatigue
crack growth, for example, you would normally compare the stress intensity factor for applied and
residual stresses, KIapplied and KIresidual. KI is a measure of stress concentration (close enough
for this discussion anyway) that is calculated based on the applied average stress and the size of
the stress concentrator (for KI, the crack length).

sorry for not being clear - i was trying to get a quantitative answer for the magnitude of residual
stress i can expect to see in a drawn wire
- the straight section of a spoke.

Quoted message said:

The relevant difference between applied stresses and residual stresses is that applied stresses
can be cyclic. They vary over the loading cycle, such as each time a spoke is loaded and unloaded.
Residual stresses are mean stresses, they remain constant independent of the cyclic variations in
applied stress. (If the combined stresses cause yielding things do change.) Mean and cyclic
stresses have different effects on crack initiation and growth. It should be sufficient here to
say that they both are important, although mean stresses alone cannot cause fatigue failure.
Cyclically loaded parts are commonly given residual compressive stresses near the surface (e.g. by
shot peening) precisely because residual stresses do have a big effect on fatigue life.

agreed, but the notch sensitivity of the material comes into this equation also. aluminum is a big
beneficiary of this treatment for instance.

Quoted message said:

This question does not make sense to me. You want to compare /uniaxial applied/ loading in a fiber
to /3-d residual/ stresses in a spoke. What is the point you want to make?

size effect. smaller notched components perform better than larger ones in fatigue.

thank you for raising some very valid and important points - i have ignored residual stress as a
factor in these failures because the majority of the fractures i've examined initiate on the
/inside/ of the spoke elbow bend, not the outside [although i have examples of each]. residual
stress in this location is compressive so i'm just looking at the external [+cyclic] load.

when i read a theory that an essentially once-off sub-yield tensile force in this location is going
to materially affect affect fatigue life, my b.s. detector gets triggered. especially when its
author doesn't know the difference between materials that exhibit strain aging and those that don't.
but that's my problem i guess.

thanks again

jim

jim beam <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

sorry for not being clear - i was trying to get a quantitative answer for the magnitude of
residual stress i can expect to see in a drawn wire
- the straight section of a spoke.

Why the residual stress in the straight section? The fatigue failures occur in the bend or
the threads.

Quoted message said:

thank you for raising some very valid and important points - i have ignored residual stress as a
factor in these failures because the majority of the fractures i've examined initiate on the
/inside/ of the spoke elbow bend, not the outside [although i have examples of each]. residual
stress in this location is compressive so i'm just looking at the external [+cyclic] load.

The inside of the spoke elbow will have TENSILE residual stress, not compressive, because of the
elastic springback after bending. See below. That 0.5 Sy number is for a beam; I'm too lazy to
derive the number for a circular cross section right now.

Since that location has tensile residual stress, tensile applied mean stress from the spoke tension
and bending, plus the cyclic loading, it is obviously a good place to start a fatigue failure.

Mike

----- copied from 1999 posting groups.google.comgroupsOpen ↗
[email hidden]%3E&lr=&hl=en
----------------------

The residual stresses caused by bending plastically and then unloading elastically have the
opposite sign to this. The side that was originally in tension has compressive residual stress and
vice versa.

At the risk of having this come through poorly via ASCII, let me try to sketch this (try viewing
with courier or other fixed-width font). The following is the through-thickness variation of stress
in a bent beam.

LOAD UNLOAD RESIDUAL
Sy -1.5Sy -0.5Sy
| \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \
----- \ -----
| \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \
-Sy 1.5Sy +0.5Sy

Sy = yield stress Assumption: elastic-perfectly plastic, elastic unload The reason the peak stresses
are 1.5 Sy for unloading is that the unloading distribution must have the same moment as the load.

Conclusion: the side originally in tension has compressive residual stress.

A similar figure appears in the introductory textbook from which I learned solid mechanics:
"Introduction to mechanics of solids," Igor Popov. I trust that newer textbooks contain a similar
treatment.

--------------090703040502080309070500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

g.daniels wrote

Quoted message said:

what claims?

That they never round nipples, their spokes never "ping" after a wheel build, etc...

Quoted message said:

what recommendations?

Specifically, those found in "The Bicycle Wheel", Sheldon Brown's website, and other posters who
regularly dispense sound advice.

Quoted message said:

what stuff?

Their recommendations. C'mon, g!!! here I am one of the few who try to absorb your prose; make
allowances for your style (sometimes brilliant, I think), so are you kidding with these questions or
are you really having trouble following straightforward English?

Quoted message said:

stymied by what?

The "stuff" doesn't always yield 100% results for me. Sometimes I get a "ping" out of a wheel after
I build it. I might need re-truing from time-to-time. Such things as are proclaimed to never result
if proper practice is followed in the making. The "stuff" works well enough, though, that I'm
willing to accept the idea that the anomalies are the result of some aspect that I haven't mastered.
I find the errors of my ways as time goes on, and my revised view has always more closely aligned
with the precepts of "the stuff". I don't build wheels very often.

Quoted message said:

the tool idea, that is a vice like grip the nipple but without too much pressure inward just zero
clearance for that damaging side to side wiggle or tool rock, ah TOOL ROCK!! print it. UTM...
anyway, the less clearance the better grip the less damage to the fastner surface. My local expert,
G.Schwin of Schwin FM, thought about his experience with the vice nipple tools but couldn't
remember a specific positive over the spokey-yet logic suggests an advantage by less tool rock.

Any tool that doesn't squish the nipple is going to concentrate the force near the corners. There's
such a thing as too loose, but I think the spokey, which is pushing 3 corners, is going to do better
than a "zero-tool-rock" tool which only pushes on 2 corners.

Quoted message said:

The mech doesn't send the fastner out into the vacuum or doesn't want to anyway.

"We commit these bodies to the void... with a glad heart" (Alien3) Toss 'em!

Quoted message said:

and the cross country people ..

They need "the stuff".

Quoted message said:

--------------090703040502080309070500 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN"> <html> <head> <title></title>
</head> <body> <br> <br>
h.daniels wrote<!----><br> <br> <br> <blockquote type="cite"
cite="[email hidden]"> <pre wrap="">what claims?</pre>
</blockquote> That they never round nipples, their spokes never "ping" after a wheel build,
etc...<br> <blockquote type="cite" cite="[email hidden]"> <pre
wrap=""> what recommendations?</pre> </blockquote> Specifically, those found in "The Bicycle
Wheel", Sheldon Brown's website, and other posters who regularly dispense sound advice.<br>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="[email hidden]"> <pre wrap="">
what stuff?</pre> </blockquote> Their recommendations. C'mon, g!!! here I am one of
the few who try to absorb your prose; make allowances for your style (sometimes brilliant, I
think), so are you kidding with these questions or are you really having trouble following
straightforward English?<br> <blockquote type="cite"
cite="[email hidden]"> <pre wrap=""> stymied by what?</pre>
</blockquote> The "stuff" doesn't always yield 100% results for me. Sometimes I get a "ping"
out of a wheel after I build it. I might need re-truing from time-to-time. Such things
as are proclaimed to never result if proper practice is followed in the making. The "stuff"
works well enough, though, that I'm willing to accept the idea that the anomalies are the result
of some aspect that I haven't mastered. I find the errors of my ways as time goes on, and my
revised view has always more closely aligned with the precepts of "the stuff". I don't build
wheels very often.<br> <blockquote type="cite"
cite="[email hidden]"> <pre wrap="">

the tool idea, that is a vice like grip the nipple but without too much pressure inward just zero
clearance for that damaging side to side wiggle or tool rock, ah TOOL ROCK!! print it. UTM…
anyway, the less clearance the better grip the less damage to the fastner surface. My local expert,
G.Schwin of Schwin FM, thought about his experience with the vice nipple tools but couldn't remember
a specific positive over the spokey-yet logic suggests an advantage by less tool rock.</pre>
</blockquote> Any tool that doesn't squish the nipple is going to concentrate the force near the
corners. There's such a thing as too loose, but I think the spokey, which is pushing 3
corners, is going to do better than a "zero-tool-rock" tool which only pushes on 2 corners.
<blockquote type="cite" cite="[email hidden]"> <pre wrap=""> The
mech doesn't send the fastner out into the vacuum or doesn't want to anyway.</pre> </blockquote> "We
commit these bodies to the void... with a glad heart" (Alien3) Toss 'em!<br> <blockquote
type="cite" cite="[email hidden]"> <pre wrap="">

and the cross country people ..</pre> </blockquote> They need "the stuff".<br> <br> <blockquote
type="cite" cite="[email hidden]"> <pre wrap=""> </pre>
</blockquote> <br> </body> </html>

--------------090703040502080309070500--

Quoted message said:

LOAD UNLOAD RESIDUAL
Sy -1.5Sy -0.5Sy
| \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \
----- \ -----
| \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \
-Sy 1.5Sy +0.5Sy

Sy = yield stress Assumption: elastic-perfectly plastic, elastic unload The reason the peak
stresses are 1.5 Sy for unloading is that the unloading distribution must have the same moment as
the load.

Conclusion: the side originally in tension has compressive residual stress.

A similar figure appears in the introductory textbook from which I learned solid mechanics:
"Introduction to mechanics of solids," Igor Popov. I trust that newer textbooks contain a similar
treatment.

i knew that - now that you reminded me!!!

thanks mike.

i guess i still have a question though. how does this compare to the other factors when looking at
fatigue initiation for a spoke? i ask because there's plenty of info for residual stress [and
relief] for springs, whose alloys are highly notch-sensitive, derive their strength from their
composition and heat treatment, etc. a spoke however is primarily the product of it's [extensive]
cold work history and has very little in common with the above.

any thoughts?

j

Alex Rodriguez <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

Uh, I think you missed the tool recommedation. The brand name of the tool is Spokey. Not a spoke
key, which is what you call the tool. Using a good tool on well lubed nipples, I have never
damaged the nipples. Something is a miss.

quick recc for the Pedro's tool too. it has both the spokey-style three corner, and the park-style
standard, on the same tool. something like 7 bucks online, IIRC. a while back i bought one and waxed
happy about it on rbt. i was promptly informed that Pedro's stuff sucked, and that you dont really
need the three corner spoke key.

well, that was a while ago. i was young. and naieve. some hundreds of wheel-trues later, i am still
young and naieve, but i can say with some confidence that

a) this spoke key is well made, in that the wrench parts fit the nipple flats well. if other pedro's
tools break (i wouldnt know) then this is the exception (i like their cone wrenches, thoguh.

b) for decently built wheels you do not need a three corner tool, it would seem. the nipple flats
fit are standard and fit the tool well, the metals are good, the nipples rarely seize, and the
spokes are not overtensioned. however, for older wheels with corroded parts, rusted cheapo
spokes, inferior OEM componentry, etc, a three corner tool can make a difference, and the pedros
version doesnt cost appreciabely more than the spokey, and includes a 'normal' option in the same
easy package.

jim beam <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

i guess i still have a question though. how does this compare to the other factors when looking at
fatigue initiation for a spoke? i ask because there's plenty of info for residual stress [and
relief] for springs, whose alloys are highly notch-sensitive, derive their strength from their
composition and heat treatment, etc. a spoke however is primarily the product of it's [extensive]
cold work history and has very little in common with the above.

I'm really not sure. I generally expect the residual stress to have a significant effect on fatigue
crack growth, and, therefore, on life. I really don't have enough information to say much about the
effect of residual stress on crack initiation in this particular application and in regards to the
factors you mention above.

Mike

In article said:

jim beam <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

i guess i still have a question though. how does this compare to the other factors when looking
at fatigue initiation for a spoke? i ask because there's plenty of info for residual stress [and
relief] for springs, whose alloys are highly notch-sensitive, derive their strength from their
composition and heat treatment, etc. a spoke however is primarily the product of it's
[extensive] cold work history and has very little in common with the above.

I'm really not sure. I generally expect the residual stress to have a significant effect on
fatigue crack growth, and, therefore, on life.

This is why properly stress-relieving the spokes when building the wheels improves durability. There
are residual stresses within the spoke at the elbow from forming the spoke.

faqs.orgsection 28.htmlOpen ↗

I have the answer. Wipperman! steel collars pressed on brass nipples.

the other answer or one of them beyond stress relief(also reached by throwing the assembly into the
can and getting anew one) is lubricating the hub before assembly-wax with teflon liberally applied
onto the spoke holes then filling the holes up with wax with teflon allowing to set in a horizontal
position. One can dribble the wax down a used spoke(cut the end off) The spokes, in theory, move
around under load and the dry movement contribute to spoke bend failure. That's an empirical
conclusion based on road testing to eliminate tooth gnash.

chow!

well, all the other wheel problems eliminated or reduced: bearing cone disintegration with wheels
mfg, lubes, bearings 25, DT spokes with hub lube, dirt bike hub via gordon touring, Conti TT tires,
self sealing tubes from Nbar with slimers, and god bless it a wheels mfg axle at a looong length to
reduce down time and temporal lobe loss- its the exp del nipples!!! gotta be some guy teaching in
kansas once worked for the peace corp or the un-maybe a CIA guy hung out on the Ho Chee Trail
watching bikes roll by carrying sam missiles to Iraq?? what do third world bike cargo haulers do
with their nipples?? car spokes and car rims?? so contemplating more nipple down time brings on the
movement of the bike into a twilight zone of toy. eco toy. the exp del nipples belong on a topy not
a transportation device.

"g.daniels" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

well, all the other wheel problems eliminated or reduced: bearing cone disintegration with wheels
mfg, lubes, bearings 25, DT spokes with hub lube, dirt bike hub via gordon touring, Conti TT
tires, self sealing tubes from Nbar with slimers, and god bless it a wheels mfg axle at a looong
length to reduce down time and temporal lobe loss- its the exp del nipples!!! gotta be some guy
teaching in kansas once worked for the peace corp or the un-maybe a CIA guy hung out on the Ho
Chee Trail watching bikes roll by carrying sam missiles to Iraq?? what do third world bike cargo
haulers do with their nipples?? car spokes and car rims?? so contemplating more nipple down time
brings on the movement of the bike into a twilight zone of toy. eco toy. the exp del nipples
belong on a topy not a transportation device.

Gene, It seems you've experienced a nipple failure of some type.

If the flats are rounded, get a better spoke wrench and be sure to pull always it down on to the
nipple - don't engage from the side.

If a nipple simply cracked in half, I'd consider that a known but rare anomaly and not worry about
it, replace and ride.

--
Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Quoted message said:

If the flats are rounded, get a better spoke wrench and be sure to pull always it down on to the
nipple - don't engage from the side.

right! and the parks 6 way tool appears to be worn out!! that's a suprise: brass vs "hi quality
tool steel."

The Dt hex head nipples are choice-if one has a wheel stand to adjust from the back.

LBS sez not much hardness difference between wheelsmith nips and DT nips.

Two manufacturers in Tiwan exists-of steel nips-but no word so far of a usa outlet.