Spoke tension

Quoted message said:

Just thinking about linseed oil smell gave me a warm fuzzy feeling when
it was first mentioned.

I kinda like it too - not sure if it's because it's the "smell of
building wheels" or because it smells good (to me).

Quoted message said:

So does it go just on the threads, or should some also go on the nipple
shoulder?

I put it on the theads sparingly. What I'll do is bundle 15-20 spokes
together with the ends all aligned, and dip about 1/8" (3mm) of the
threads into the linseed oil. Then I'll roll the spokes around, which
distributes the oil uniformly over all the threads. It also saves a
lot of time and mess compared to trying to dip each one individually.

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $795 ti frame

Mark Hickey said:

Quoted message said:

Just thinking about linseed oil smell gave me a warm fuzzy feeling when
it was first mentioned.

I kinda like it too - not sure if it's because it's the "smell of
building wheels" or because it smells good (to me).

Quoted message said:

So does it go just on the threads, or should some also go on the nipple
shoulder?

I put it on the theads sparingly. What I'll do is bundle 15-20 spokes
together with the ends all aligned, and dip about 1/8" (3mm) of the
threads into the linseed oil. Then I'll roll the spokes around, which
distributes the oil uniformly over all the threads. It also saves a
lot of time and mess compared to trying to dip each one individually.

That's pretty much exactly what I do, as well.

One last thing, it takes a few days for the linseed oil to dry and act
as a thread lock. So after all the wheel building is completed, there
is an advantage to not using the wheels immediately. Yes, I know that
isn't always practical......

Peter Cole said:

jim beam said:

use the "mavic" method of seating the spokes into the hub flanges -
grip the rim at opposite sides when laced and press the hub with your
near full body weight into a block of wood. this way, you can seat
spokes without having to bring them to tension first, hence avoiding
this bending business. the mavic pdf's on wheel building were on the
mavic tech web site last time i looked.

Can't find it -- link?

can't directly link - it's on their "password protected" tech site.
fogel is the keyholder iirc.

Quoted message said:

jim beam said:

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] wrote:
> Bill Platt writes:
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/38636024@N00/104463818/
>
>>> the hub holes deform during the build. "correcting the spoke line"
>>> before this process has occurred is premature and will leave the
>>> spoke elbow with the wrong resultant angle. the spoke elbow comes
>>> pre-formed with the best resultant angle and the hub flange is
>>> canted and drilled also to give the best resultant angle. it may
>>> look odd when first laced, but when fully tensioned, the net result
>>> is optimized. i therefore say leave the spoke elbow angle alone -
>>> do /not/ bend.
>> I wonder how long it takes to get that way. I've always noticed this
>> too, but I've never loosened and examined a new wheel to see how
>> much of that plastic forming takes place before it is even ridden.
> It happens immediately when a spoke is tensioned as the flange
> conforms to the shape of the spoke elbow which remains unchanged from
> tensioning. Unspoking a tensioned wheel that has not been ridden
> shows the spoke seating effect in its final condition. In use, spokes
> do not increase in tension so there is no further deformation of
> flange holes.
>
> The spoke line is best improved manually without the hazard of
> damaging flanges by hammering. This is more apparent with large
> flange hubs. Not improving the spoke line leaves spokes with higher
> residual stress that is not easily removed otherwise. That is the
> purpose of this step. That spokes do not lie flat against the flange
> is apparent after tensioning and should be corrected.
>
> Jobst Brandt
These are used hubs that show these flange deformations. The rear hub
seems to only ever have been built up one way, while the front seems to
have been used more than one way. I assume it would be best for me to
assemble the rear wheel to match this deformation, but what about the
front wheel? Does it really make any difference?

not really unless you plan on these hubs being ultra-high mileage,
loaded touring, etc.

120-160 miles per week with fully loaded weight of about 240 lbs. This
is for my good-weather commuter. If the hubs break, I supose I'll just
buy new ones, right?

if they ever do, yes! the theoretical "disadvantage" of reuse due to
hole deformation is extremely small and may indeed be mitigated by
re-orientation of the fatigue loads. i'd not worry about it personally
- if spoke tension is not excessive, the bearings are going to be toast
long before the flanges ever give out.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

These are low flange
hubs and low profile rims, so the spoke angle is about as shallow as it
is going to get on a front wheel.

use the "mavic" method of seating the spokes into the hub flanges - grip
the rim at opposite sides when laced and press the hub with your near
full body weight into a block of wood. this way, you can seat spokes
without having to bring them to tension first, hence avoiding this
bending business. the mavic pdf's on wheel building were on the mavic
tech web site last time i looked.

I like that idea.

Joseph

Quoted message said:

Bill Platt said:

Quoted message said:

> This is good news. The only problem I seem to have is that the
> spokes and hubs I have don't seem to have the inbound and outbound
> parts labeled. Is there some secret code?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I've been watching this thread, hoping that I wasn't the only one
with this question. How do you "cant and drill" a hole in the hub
flange so that both inbound *and* outbound spokes are "optimized?"
If the hole was so canted, would that mean that the hubs should not
be deformed during the build?

Quoted message said:

I think with the exception of weird special purpose hubs, all the
holes are the same. There is no cant. The spoke is bent into a J
to take care of that. The holes are all drilled parallel to the hub
axis. The edges of the holes are chamfered, but as noted upthread,
the spokes seat into the hub and create additional indentations.

Many hubs have slightly cup shaped flanges that approximate the angle
of the average spoke to the rim so that outbound spokes do not have so
hard a time of aligning to the angle. These flanges are drilled, one
hole at a time by an NC machine that indexes at the appropriate
interval as the angled drill penetrates the flange normal to its
surface.

When taking apart a wheel, the elbows of outbound spokes will have an
acute angle and inbound ones an obtuse angle.

only if they've been bent by the wheel builder prior to hub hole
deformation. if the builder doesn't prematurely bend, and the "mavic
method" of bedding the spokes in is observed, there's no discernible
change in angle. not with 3x on quality hubs that have angled hub
flanges at any rate.

Quoted message said:

The obtuse angle is the
natural one from manufacture. The acute angle results from improving
the spoke line, as was discussed here and explained in "the Bicycle
Wheel".

i.e. premature bending.

Quoted message said:

The angular difference is small but important. That is why
changing a rim should be done without removing spokes from the hub
while transferring them to the new rim, one at a time to prevent
getting acute angled spokes into inbound positions.

elsewhere you write that spokes can be reused many times, regardless of
hub or rim. that necessarily means deployment changes. be truthful
jobst - the only real advantage to rim swapping in the way you describe
is ease of rebuild. it's not some form of fatigue-eliminating witchcraft.

Quoted message said:

These cannot be
improved in place.

that's true, but not for the reasons you're claiming.

"Ozark Bicycle" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Mark Hickey said:

Quoted message said:

Just thinking about linseed oil smell gave me a warm fuzzy feeling when
it was first mentioned.

I kinda like it too - not sure if it's because it's the "smell of
building wheels" or because it smells good (to me).

Quoted message said:

So does it go just on the threads, or should some also go on the nipple
shoulder?

I put it on the theads sparingly. What I'll do is bundle 15-20 spokes
together with the ends all aligned, and dip about 1/8" (3mm) of the
threads into the linseed oil. Then I'll roll the spokes around, which
distributes the oil uniformly over all the threads. It also saves a
lot of time and mess compared to trying to dip each one individually.

That's pretty much exactly what I do, as well.

One last thing, it takes a few days for the linseed oil to dry and act
as a thread lock. So after all the wheel building is completed, there
is an advantage to not using the wheels immediately. Yes, I know that
isn't always practical......

Go to an art supply store and get a small bottle of "cobalt dryer", found
among the oil painting supplies. Add one or two drops to a small quantity
of linseed oil that you're going to use to lube your spoke threads. It
accelerates the polymerization of the linseed oil.

Cal

bill said:

jim beam said:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/38636024@N00/104463818/

the hub holes deform during the build. "correcting the spoke line"
before this process has occurred is premature and will leave the spoke
elbow with the wrong resultant angle. the spoke elbow comes pre-formed
with the best resultant angle and the hub flange is canted and drilled
also to give the best resultant angle. it may look odd when first
laced, but when fully tensioned, the net result is optimized. i
therefore say leave the spoke elbow angle alone - do /not/ bend.

I wonder how long it takes to get that way. I've always noticed this
too, but I've never loosened and examined a new wheel to see how much
of that plastic forming takes place before it is even riddenn

if the spokes have been bedded in properly with over-stress, it's all
done before the wheel's ever ridden.

Ozark Bicycle said:

Quoted message said:

Ozark Bicycle said:

Sheldon Brown wrote:
> Ben C wrote:
>
> > > So does linseed oil actually lock the threads?
> > > I thought it was just to
> > > lubricate them a bit and provide a corrosion barrier.
>
> Ozark Bicycle replied:
>
> > When wet, it lubes the spoke threads. When it dries, it provides a
> > gentle thread lock.
>
> Yep, this is a traditional technique, works very well...if you can
> stand the smel!
>

When I began to use linseed oil in wheelbuilding ~20 years ago, I was
already appreciative of the smell from my woodworking stuff. YNMV.

And it does work well, at least as well as "Spoke Prep" and much more
realistically priced.

Just thinking about linseed oil smell gave me a warm fuzzy feeling when
it was first mentioned.

Is this from woodworking/refinishing experience?

Furniture making and resoration on a crude amateur level! I haven't
done it in years, but the smells and the smooth-finger sawdust and
sand-paper feel sure is comforting.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

So does it go just on the threads, or should some also go on the nipple
shoulder?

I just put it on the threads.

And your workspace will be filled with the smell of linseed oil! :-)

Sitting in my decrepit shed with a dim light hanging from the end of an
extension cord, smelling linseed oil while fiddling with my wheels as
winter winds howl outside is about are close to nirvana as I can
imagine!

Joseph

jim beam said:

Peter Cole said:

jim beam said:

use the "mavic" method of seating the spokes into the hub flanges -
grip the rim at opposite sides when laced and press the hub with your
near full body weight into a block of wood. this way, you can seat
spokes without having to bring them to tension first, hence avoiding
this bending business. the mavic pdf's on wheel building were on the
mavic tech web site last time i looked.

Can't find it -- link?

can't directly link - it's on their "password protected" tech site.
fogel is the keyholder iirc.

Found the site, read the pdf's -- couldn't find anything like you describe.

www.tech-mavic.com

login "mavic-com" password "dealer"

me said:

"Ozark Bicycle" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Mark Hickey said:

[email hidden] wrote:

>Just thinking about linseed oil smell gave me a warm fuzzy feeling when
>it was first mentioned.

I kinda like it too - not sure if it's because it's the "smell of
building wheels" or because it smells good (to me).

>So does it go just on the threads, or should some also go on the nipple
>shoulder?

I put it on the theads sparingly. What I'll do is bundle 15-20 spokes
together with the ends all aligned, and dip about 1/8" (3mm) of the
threads into the linseed oil. Then I'll roll the spokes around, which
distributes the oil uniformly over all the threads. It also saves a
lot of time and mess compared to trying to dip each one individually.

That's pretty much exactly what I do, as well.

One last thing, it takes a few days for the linseed oil to dry and act
as a thread lock. So after all the wheel building is completed, there
is an advantage to not using the wheels immediately. Yes, I know that
isn't always practical......

Go to an art supply store and get a small bottle of "cobalt dryer", found
among the oil painting supplies. Add one or two drops to a small quantity
of linseed oil that you're going to use to lube your spoke threads. It
accelerates the polymerization of the linseed oil.

Thanks for the tip! I'll try that.

Peter Cole said:

jim beam said:

Peter Cole said:

jim beam wrote:

> use the "mavic" method of seating the spokes into the hub flanges -
> grip the rim at opposite sides when laced and press the hub with
> your near full body weight into a block of wood. this way, you can
> seat spokes without having to bring them to tension first, hence
> avoiding this bending business. the mavic pdf's on wheel building
> were on the mavic tech web site last time i looked.

Can't find it -- link?

can't directly link - it's on their "password protected" tech site.
fogel is the keyholder iirc.

Found the site, read the pdf's -- couldn't find anything like you describe.

www.tech-mavic.com

login "mavic-com" password "dealer"

the mavic pdf i have saved to my system is titled SpokeTension.pdf

text is:

TENSION OF THE SPOKES
Perform each of the following procedures always starting from the valve
hole.

1 Place the wheel in the truing stand and put a drop of spoke prep on
each visible threaded zone of the spoke heads.

2 Tighten each nipple in a progressive and uniform manner. (For example,
tighten each nipple 1 turn, one after the other). For optimum mounting,
you need to stress relieve the spokes so the elbows closely follow the
shape of the hub flange. Repeat this procedure until you obtain tension
in the spokes.

3 Place the wheel in the truing stand and check that the wheel is
globally centered (use the dishing tool if necessary). If this is the
case, continue to tighten the spokes in a uniform manner. If this is not
the case, tighten the spokes as consistently as possible on the left
side, if the wheel is too far to the right, or vice-versa.

4 The wheel should rotate almost totally round (no vertical or lateral
movements). However, if the wheel has vertical movement, tighten a spoke
on each side in the problem area (bump). You must systematically work
both sides so that the lateral movement is not affected. If the wheel
has lateral movement, tighten two spokes on the same side in the problem
area (bump). You must work at least two spokes on the same side so that
the vertical movement is not affected.

5 Check the tension of the spokes with a tensionometer (see photo). At
this stage, we recommend an approximate tension of:
- 40 - 60 daN on the front wheel.
- 40 - 60 daN on the free wheel side of the rear wheel.
An exact relationship between the two sides of the rear wheel is
relatively difficult. The tension of the spokes on the free wheel side
is approximately 70 % higher than the tension of the spokes on the
opposite side.

6 When there is no lateral or vertical movement, put the hub axle of the
wheel on a wooden block and push on opposite sides of the rim with your
hands. The spokes and nipples will now "seat" in position (stress
relieving).

7 Increase the tension of the spokes while checking the vertical and
lateral movements of the wheel to reach a final tension of approximately:
- 90 - 110 daN on the front wheel.
- 90 - 110 daN on the free wheel side of the rear wheel.

8 Repeat procedures 6 and 7 until the wheel is perfect and the spokes
make no more cracking sounds.

Peter Cole said:

jim beam said:

Peter Cole said:

jim beam wrote:

> use the "mavic" method of seating the spokes into the hub flanges -
> grip the rim at opposite sides when laced and press the hub with your
> near full body weight into a block of wood. this way, you can seat
> spokes without having to bring them to tension first, hence avoiding
> this bending business. the mavic pdf's on wheel building were on the
> mavic tech web site last time i looked.

Can't find it -- link?

can't directly link - it's on their "password protected" tech site.
fogel is the keyholder iirc.

Found the site, read the pdf's -- couldn't find anything like you describe.

www.tech-mavic.com

login "mavic-com" password "dealer"

Dear Peter,

I just looked and found that Mavic re-did their wretched website in
mid-October. You still can't search it, but it looks as if there's less
to rummage through. Mavic may have tossed out some stuff when they
re-did their web-site.

Like you, I couldn't find the pdf, either, but what Jim Beam wrote
sounded familiar, and I see that he's posted a saved copy. I can't
remember well enough to say if I'm confusing Mavic with the Bontrager
stressor box that Dianne pointed out:

http://www.bontrager.com/assets/File_Listings/asset_upload_file325_970.pdf

The long Bontrager pdf has stuff about correcting the spoke line and
then about the spoke stressor box, which could be described as a stand
for squashing all the spokes at once at the hub with a screw-jack--look
at the pictures and it's a fairly simple tool.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Peter Cole said:

jim beam said:

Peter Cole said:

jim beam wrote:

> use the "mavic" method of seating the spokes into the hub flanges -
> grip the rim at opposite sides when laced and press the hub with your
> near full body weight into a block of wood. this way, you can seat
> spokes without having to bring them to tension first, hence avoiding
> this bending business. the mavic pdf's on wheel building were on the
> mavic tech web site last time i looked.

Can't find it -- link?

can't directly link - it's on their "password protected" tech site.
fogel is the keyholder iirc.

Found the site, read the pdf's -- couldn't find anything like you describe.

www.tech-mavic.com

login "mavic-com" password "dealer"

Dear Peter,

Here's the old Mavic pdf from Jim Beam:

http://home.comcast.net/~carlfogel/download/SpokeTension.pdf

"Step 6 When there is no lateral or vertical movement, put the hub axle
of the wheel on a wooden block and push on opposite sides of the rim
with your hands. The spokes and nipples will now 'seat' in position
(stress relieving)."

The Mavic page indicated that this is first done at about 40-60 kgf
spoke tension on a wheel that will end up at 90-110 kgf, and then
repeated as the tension is increased "until the wheel is perfect and
the spokes make no more cracking sounds."

Maybe it's still somewhere on the Mavic site, but I can't find it.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

On 2006-11-12, [email hidden] <[email hidden]> wrote:
[snip]

Quoted message said:

I just looked and found that Mavic re-did their wretched website in
mid-October. You still can't search it, but it looks as if there's less
to rummage through. Mavic may have tossed out some stuff when they
re-did their web-site.

Like you, I couldn't find the pdf, either, but what Jim Beam wrote
sounded familiar, and I see that he's posted a saved copy.

Their website is certainly wretched, but the pdf is there, it's called
"SpokeTension.pdf", and I think it's under the "Rims" heading rather
than the "Wheels" heading.

In article <[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

Here's the old Mavic pdf from Jim Beam:

http://home.comcast.net/~carlfogel/download/SpokeTension.pdf

"Step 6 When there is no lateral or vertical movement, put the hub
axle of the wheel on a wooden block and push on opposite sides of the
rim with your hands. The spokes and nipples will now 'seat' in
position (stress relieving)."

Which is not stress relieving, of course. It is releasing the spoke
windup from improper spoke tightening technique.

Quoted message said:

The Mavic page indicated that this is first done at about 40-60 kgf
spoke tension on a wheel that will end up at 90-110 kgf, and then
repeated as the tension is increased "until the wheel is perfect and
the spokes make no more cracking sounds."

Yikes.

Ben C? said:

Quoted message said:

I just looked and found that Mavic re-did their wretched website in
mid-October. You still can't search it, but it looks as if there's
less to rummage through. Mavic may have tossed out some stuff when
they re-did their web-site.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Like you, I couldn't find the pdf, either, but what Jim Beam wrote
sounded familiar, and I see that he's posted a saved copy.

Quoted message said:

Their website is certainly wretched, but the pdf is there, it's
called "SpokeTension.pdf", and I think it's under the "Rims" heading
rather than the "Wheels" heading.

I don't think they know any more about wheels than web site design.
Their products have had failures ever since the original Mavic name
was absorbed in the Solomon Group. This pushing-on-the-rim bit only
relaxes underside spokes and does nothing for seating, which occurs
naturally with tensioning the wheel. Their method is a crude way of
untwisting spokes, much like cracking knuckles, once a popular gesture
in preparation for physical exertion. It gave a reassuring sound.

Jobst Brandt

Ben C said:

On 2006-11-12, [email hidden] <[email hidden]> wrote:
[snip]

Quoted message said:

I just looked and found that Mavic re-did their wretched website in
mid-October. You still can't search it, but it looks as if there's less
to rummage through. Mavic may have tossed out some stuff when they
re-did their web-site.

Like you, I couldn't find the pdf, either, but what Jim Beam wrote
sounded familiar, and I see that he's posted a saved copy.

Their website is certainly wretched, but the pdf is there, it's called
"SpokeTension.pdf", and I think it's under the "Rims" heading rather
than the "Wheels" heading.

Dear Ben,

You're right--the wood block pdf is still on the Mavic site.

Peter and I didn't find it because the site is such a hideously
unorganized mess.

Go here and login as "mavic.com" using password "dealer":

http://www.tech-mavic.com/tech-mavic/technical_manual/data/

Hit enter and wait while something useless slowly loads.

Click on "Prior 2007 Documentation" and wait for a new window to open.

Click on "Road and Triathlon."

Click on "Rims" instead of "Wheels" because the wheels are already
built, so wheel-building is covered under rims--très logique!

Look at the "Wheel Building" pdf--no, that's not it.

Try the "Wheel Building continued" pdf--that's not it, either.

Hmmm . . . try the "Spoke Tension" pdf--there it is, the wood block
and push on opposite sides of the rim stress-relief technique!

http://www.tech-mavic.com/tech-mavic/technical_manual/data/tech-mavic/uk/sources/Produits/ROUTE/Jantes/GalJtesRte/SpokeTension.pdf
or http://tinyurl.com/yfq5cl

Apparently, this technique is now considered pre-2007, since it
doesn't appear in the mammoth "Complete 2007 technical manual" pdf or
in the "rims" or "wheels" section at the opening of the newly
mis-designed site.

One theory is that Mavic requires a login and password to keep the
public out of its web site, lest we become frustrated.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Tim McNamara said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

Here's the old Mavic pdf from Jim Beam:

http://home.comcast.net/~carlfogel/download/SpokeTension.pdf

"Step 6 When there is no lateral or vertical movement, put the hub
axle of the wheel on a wooden block and push on opposite sides of the
rim with your hands. The spokes and nipples will now 'seat' in
position (stress relieving)."

Which is not stress relieving, of course. It is releasing the spoke
windup from improper spoke tightening technique.

but tim, it /does/ raise spoke tension on the side closest the operator
[you can check that yourself with a tensiometer or spoke plucking if you
have an assistant], so it achieves exactly the same function as spoke
squeezing. the advantage of this method is that you don't need to have
the spokes tensioned to be able to start bedding the spokes into the hub
holes, unlike spoke squeezing. it's also easier to apply body weight to
a rim rather than grip wire by hand.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The Mavic page indicated that this is first done at about 40-60 kgf
spoke tension on a wheel that will end up at 90-110 kgf, and then
repeated as the tension is increased "until the wheel is perfect and
the spokes make no more cracking sounds."

Yikes.

why? you get the same noises with other "stress relief" methods.

Quoted message said:

Ben C? said:

Quoted message said:

I just looked and found that Mavic re-did their wretched website in
mid-October. You still can't search it, but it looks as if there's
less to rummage through. Mavic may have tossed out some stuff when
they re-did their web-site.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Like you, I couldn't find the pdf, either, but what Jim Beam wrote
sounded familiar, and I see that he's posted a saved copy.

Quoted message said:

Their website is certainly wretched, but the pdf is there, it's
called "SpokeTension.pdf", and I think it's under the "Rims" heading
rather than the "Wheels" heading.

I don't think they know any more about wheels than web site design.
Their products have had failures ever since the original Mavic name
was absorbed in the Solomon Group. This pushing-on-the-rim bit only
relaxes underside spokes and does nothing for seating,

presumptive nonsense proving that you've never done it. honestly jobst,
the [censored] you write sometimes is simply shameful.

Quoted message said:

which occurs
naturally with tensioning the wheel.

more fundamentally untrue drivel. unlike you, /i/ have tested this
presumptive nonsense, and have proven it untrue. not that i really
needed to bother since anyone that has actually done a brinell test
would know that the higher the load, the deeper the indent - spokes in
hub flanges are exactly the same principle.

Quoted message said:

Their method is a crude way of
untwisting spokes,

it's no worse than gripping spokes by hand, and works for /all/ spoking
patterns.

Quoted message said:

much like cracking knuckles, once a popular gesture
in preparation for physical exertion. It gave a reassuring sound.

irrelevant drivel.

on the one hand jobst, your ability to present nonsense as fact is
disgusting. on the other, it's perversely impressive that you can do so
without any evidence of shame.

Quoted message said:

This pushing-on-the-rim bit only
relaxes underside spokes . . .

Dear Jobst,

What do you predict will be shown by a spoke tension gauge when I try
this technique of leaning on a horizontal wheel with one hand on
either side of the rim?

That is, what will the top and bottom spokes do around the clock, with
my hands at 9 and 3 o'clock? Which will gain tension, which will lose
tension, and how much?

I haven't tried it yet, so this would be a good chance to test whether
theory predicts results.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel