SST effects on max power

[bgoetz]

Alright, I am getting a bit concerned, maybe it is the fact that I didn't have a powermeter for my outdoor/ max wattage efforts this time last year, but my max power is way low. I have been doing strong doses of SST this year and have dropped 10lbs. I am seeing huge improvements in my FTP/kg, but damn I had better plan on going from 1k out. Granted all of my efforts have just been me screwing around, but all indications say I am about 20% off of my max power. I have some time slated before the season to focus on building my max power, but can I expect to make up this type of power deficit?should I start working in some sprints in my training? Last year I felt like I lost my kick, this year if the trend continues I can't imagine even contesting sprints.

 

[tonyzackery]

I'm sure you know that the power continuum works on a sliding scale, BG. You move the slider in one direction (max sustainable) decreases the power on the other side (absolute max). Think about Theo Bos, world champ sprinter on the track, and now good sprinter on the road. He'd get totally wasted if he was to immediately get on the track and even try to qualify for a World Cup event. In the beginning, I suppose a person can have both (higher max and sustainable), but after some continued training in the legs you don't get to have your cake and eat it too.

I'm sure the experts will chime in and refute what I'm saying to some degree with some exceptions, but the basic rule stands.

 

[HillyGoat]

I have seen the same thing. I am 58, started racing in 2011, got a PM in March of 2012. My peak watts was 1135 not long after I started using the PM with many rides showing close to 1100 watts. Throughout 2012 I was mostly focused on improving FTP (a weakness) and my peak wattage rarely goes over 1000 now. I read something about FTP workouts causing conversion of fast twitch muscle fibers to slow twitch fibers. If that is true can that phenomenon be reversed or minimized by working on sprints a month or so before the important races?

 

[bgoetz]

I will say it can, I guess my question is just how much can I expect and how far out. My 5s last season was over 1500, the best I have seen this year is just over 1200. That trend continues all of the way to about 20 seconds.

 

[frost]

As Tony says, you can't have the cake..

How much of your SST has been on trainer? If endurance training is bad for sprint, trainer is a real poison. The neuromuscular demands on a low inertia trainer are way different from even road riding and sitting half a year on trainer doing SST and you will most definately see a hit in sprint power. Losing weight doesn't help either.

On my n=1 experience that is however not permanent damage and is reversable with a couple of months of dedicated sprint training once you get outdoors, at least to a degree of a road sprinter. I have seen some 300-400w loss of sprinting power over the winter but been able to get that back.

 

[frost]

By the way, just out of curiosity, is your 20s power down all the way or is it just that the average is lower because the first seconds are missing the big kick?

 

[bgoetz]

A good portion of everything has been on the trainer, unfortunately weather and life are preventing me from getting outdoors. Do you think I am taking a hit elsewhere by being on the trainer a lot or just sprinting? My 1 min effort outside the other day was not to bad, actually my highest watt/kg with the weight loss. Everything else does not seem too bad either, just that when I was messing around sprinting and then looked at my power I was surprised. I would say my 20 sec is likely down because I lost that big kick, although I think my 20 sec MMP is over 1000 watts so to even crank it up to 1000 watts and hold it actually seems like a bit of a tall order when I consider I am only sprinting at 1200. 30 seconds at 900 is about where I feel like I fall out of that extreme neuromuscular realm.

 

[daveryanwyoming]

If you're comparing last season's outdoor power to this season's indoor power I'd say don't worry. I've never come within two hundred watts of my peak outdoor power while riding indoors on the trainer and with your 1500 watts of peak power I'd expect it to be even less likely as pure trainer stability makes it difficult to safely sprint indoors at those power levels.

Sure specificity matters to some degree and I agree with Tony on what would likely happen if a top track sprinter suddenly switched to all TT training but I seriously doubt even Theo Bos would lose 20% of his top end due to endurance training any more than someone like Obree would lose 20% of his FTP if he started training on the track. They say sprinters are born and not made and basic genetics don't change and especially don't change all that fast just because you've been on the trainer doing steadier work for a while. If it did then Lydiard style approaches of building base before top end power would destroy an awful lot of sprinters. Twenty percent is a huge drop and I'm betting almost all of that is due to being indoors on the trainer. Get back outside, do some sprint work in suitable terrain and some leadout or speed jump work and I expect you'll see most if not all of that come back.

The trainer is always a tradeoff of indoor safety and convenience vs outdoor specificity. Many if not most folks find their sustainable power drops indoors, inertial conditions on most trainers are very different than riding outdoors, high end L7 work is tough on most trainers both for inertial reasons and because even a rock and roll trainer doesn't move like a real bike which can matter in a full out of the saddle sprint. Don't get too hung up on not seeing your normal power numbers for long or short durations while you're doing the indoor work. If the alternative is not training due to dangerous road conditions then just keep reminding yourself that what you're doing is a whole lot better than not training. If you could do some more outdoor riding and conditions are safe (even if unpleasant) then get outside when you can and use those days for either longer rides than you can tolerate on the trainer or high end work to remind you of your capabilities.

Your trainer work is almost certainly going to help next season even if you're not seeing the numbers you'd like right now. Try to remind yourself that you're doing the work in the best way you can and that the numbers will come back when you get outside. Either that or brave the elements and ride outdoors if you need to see higher numbers to stay confident. But I'm betting you'll see typical sprint power numbers within a few weeks of getting back outside in the spring.

-Dave

 

[bgoetz]

Dave, the max efforts were actually done outdoors and were that much lower . I have never really tried that type of effort on the trainer, I would be afraid of breaking it. I did a couple more efforts outside today and managed mid 1300s, so I think your right, it will come back. My legs are feeling pretty dead right now too, so that could have something to do with it. Lately I have been struggling with weather on my Sunday long rides. Tomorrow is going to be 36 and rain, I don't mind riding in it, I just worry about getting sick and setting my training back.

 

[daveryanwyoming]

Originally Posted by bgoetz .
.... My legs are feeling pretty dead right now too, so that could have something to do with it.

Yeah, that thought crossed my mind when I responded above. NM efforts respond really well to freshness, to the point where it's not unusual to see peak 5 second power set during the off season when folks aren't training that hard. From the standpoint of carrying residual fatigue, yeah SST training tends to keep you in a pretty deep fatigue hole for extended periods. It doesn't have to of course, but that's kinda the point of doing a lot of sub-maximal yet still hard work. We work those levels so that we can accumulate a lot of that kind of work and keep doing it on more days than not. We definitely pay a bit of a freshness price for that which could be what you're seeing in terms of sprint power.

All the more reason not to sweat the lack of top end power right now. As you transition to race prep and then some tapering you should have more dynamics in terms of hard days and easy days in your schedule and be fresh enough on the good days to really punch out some big numbers. The SST stuff is about getting the base and FTP up pretty high before transitioning to more polarized training and more race specific work. As long as you don't keep digging deep holes right up to important races you should see a big improvement in freshness and top end efforts on the days you go after them.

-Dave