Statins - Can I refuse ?

[email hidden] (Jason) wrote in news:jason-1412051045510001@pm4-broad-
33.snlo.dialup.fix.net:

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>, listener

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] (Jason) wrote in news:jason-1412050752380001@pm4-

broad-

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

10.snlo.dialup.fix.net:

Quoted message said:

Larry,
I developed kidney problems, muscle problems and memory problems as

a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

result of statins. That's the reason that I stopped taking statins.
I am now a vegetarian and ride an exercise bike 4 miles per day. I

take

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the "alternatives to statins" listed in Dr. Cohen's statin book.
I realize that statins help lots of people. My 250 pound sister in
law--that never exercises--has been taking statins for 10 years

without

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

ever having any side effects. If she asked me--I would advise her to

keep

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

taking statins unless she develops serious side effects. I advise
everyone that is taking statins to continue to take them but to see

their

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

doctor ASAP if they develop side effects. I would also tell them to

read

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Dr. Cohen's statin book.
Jason

Specifically, can you tell us what tests were run and what documented
kidney, muscle and memory problems you were subsquently diagnosed with

by a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

qualified medical professional?

Thanks.

L.

L.,
My doctor arranged for me to have a blood test. The creatinine level

was

Quoted message said:

1.7 MG/DL--reference range was 0.7 to 1.2.
My muscles hurt and I suspected that my kidneys were not fuctioning
correctly since my urine pattern changed. My doctor said that the

kidney

Quoted message said:

problems may have been caused by diurectics. I don't know for sure

whether

Quoted message said:

or not the doctor was correct. No special kidney function tests were

done.

Quoted message said:

Jason

Let's see if I understand this correctly: Your muscles hurt, which may or
may not have been caused by a statin according to self-diagnosis; your
kidneys "were not functioning" according to slightly elevated creatinine
level, which your doctor said could be caused by diuretics and (I'm going
to assume) you received no cognitive testing to diagnose possible statin-
related memory problems.

Is that an adequate standard by which one should *discontinue* (as
opposed to temporarily stop taking) medication?

L.

Larry <[email hidden]> wrote in news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

When I developed elevated liver functions my doctor immediately had me

stop

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

my statin, among other things. That makes sense. That is wise thinking.

Your thinking is based on fear. I can't live like that.

L.

That depends upon how elevated they were. Some people have slightly
elevated liver functions anyway. My Dad who has been on a statin has had
a moderately elevated liver function ever since he started on them some
8 years ago. He's now approaching 84 y/o and would never have lived this
long if it weren't for the Statin (cardiac disease very aggressive). And
the elevated liver enzymes don't appear to be doing him any harm.

Larry E.

Yes, they were only midly elevated, which having looked back at years of
bloodwork seems to have been the norm for me (I never noticed). My doctor
took a "better safe than sorry" approach. When I asked him if I should stop
my nightly cocktail he said "no". :-)

L.

listener said:

[email hidden] (Jason) wrote in news:jason-1412051045510001@pm4-broad-
33.snlo.dialup.fix.net:

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>, listener

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] (Jason) wrote in news:jason-1412050752380001@pm4-

broad-

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

10.snlo.dialup.fix.net:

>Larry,
>I developed kidney problems, muscle problems and memory problems as

a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>result of statins. That's the reason that I stopped taking statins.
>I am now a vegetarian and ride an exercise bike 4 miles per day. I

take

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>the "alternatives to statins" listed in Dr. Cohen's statin book.
>I realize that statins help lots of people. My 250 pound sister in
>law--that never exercises--has been taking statins for 10 years

without

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>ever having any side effects. If she asked me--I would advise her to

keep

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>taking statins unless she develops serious side effects. I advise
>everyone that is taking statins to continue to take them but to see

their

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>doctor ASAP if they develop side effects. I would also tell them to

read

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>Dr. Cohen's statin book.
>Jason

Specifically, can you tell us what tests were run and what documented
kidney, muscle and memory problems you were subsquently diagnosed with

by a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

qualified medical professional?

Thanks.

L.

L.,
My doctor arranged for me to have a blood test. The creatinine level

was

Quoted message said:

1.7 MG/DL--reference range was 0.7 to 1.2.
My muscles hurt and I suspected that my kidneys were not fuctioning
correctly since my urine pattern changed. My doctor said that the

kidney

Quoted message said:

problems may have been caused by diurectics. I don't know for sure

whether

Quoted message said:

or not the doctor was correct. No special kidney function tests were

done.

Quoted message said:

Jason

Let's see if I understand this correctly: Your muscles hurt, which may or
may not have been caused by a statin according to self-diagnosis; your
kidneys "were not functioning" according to slightly elevated creatinine
level, which your doctor said could be caused by diuretics and (I'm going
to assume) you received no cognitive testing to diagnose possible statin-
related memory problems.

Is that an adequate standard by which one should *discontinue* (as
opposed to temporarily stop taking) medication?

L.

L. ... 1.7 Serum Creatinine is not exactly "slightly elevated". While
I'm sure his kidneys were "still functioning", I would want to do what I
could to get that Serum Creatinine to within normal limits ... or at
least close. Now ... my next question would be did the Creatinine
immediately go back into the normal range upon termination of the
statin. This would help determine a definite association.

Larry E.

In article said:

listener said:

[email hidden] (Jason) wrote in news:jason-1412051045510001@pm4-broad-
33.snlo.dialup.fix.net:

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>, listener
<[email hidden]> wrote:

>[email hidden] (Jason) wrote in news:jason-1412050752380001@pm4-

broad-

Quoted message said:

>10.snlo.dialup.fix.net:
>
>>Larry,
>>I developed kidney problems, muscle problems and memory problems as

a

Quoted message said:

>>result of statins. That's the reason that I stopped taking statins.
>>I am now a vegetarian and ride an exercise bike 4 miles per day. I

take

Quoted message said:

>>the "alternatives to statins" listed in Dr. Cohen's statin book.
>>I realize that statins help lots of people. My 250 pound sister in
>>law--that never exercises--has been taking statins for 10 years

without

Quoted message said:

>>ever having any side effects. If she asked me--I would advise her to

keep

Quoted message said:

>>taking statins unless she develops serious side effects. I advise
>>everyone that is taking statins to continue to take them but to see

their

Quoted message said:

>>doctor ASAP if they develop side effects. I would also tell them to

read

Quoted message said:

>>Dr. Cohen's statin book.
>>Jason
>
>
>Specifically, can you tell us what tests were run and what documented
>kidney, muscle and memory problems you were subsquently diagnosed with

by a

Quoted message said:

>qualified medical professional?
>
>Thanks.
>
>L.

L.,
My doctor arranged for me to have a blood test. The creatinine level

was

Quoted message said:

1.7 MG/DL--reference range was 0.7 to 1.2.
My muscles hurt and I suspected that my kidneys were not fuctioning
correctly since my urine pattern changed. My doctor said that the

kidney

Quoted message said:

problems may have been caused by diurectics. I don't know for sure

whether

Quoted message said:

or not the doctor was correct. No special kidney function tests were

done.

Quoted message said:

Jason

Let's see if I understand this correctly: Your muscles hurt, which may or
may not have been caused by a statin according to self-diagnosis; your
kidneys "were not functioning" according to slightly elevated creatinine
level, which your doctor said could be caused by diuretics and (I'm going
to assume) you received no cognitive testing to diagnose possible statin-
related memory problems.

Is that an adequate standard by which one should *discontinue* (as
opposed to temporarily stop taking) medication?

L.

L. ... 1.7 Serum Creatinine is not exactly "slightly elevated". While
I'm sure his kidneys were "still functioning", I would want to do what I
could to get that Serum Creatinine to within normal limits ... or at
least close. Now ... my next question would be did the Creatinine
immediately go back into the normal range upon termination of the
statin. This would help determine a definite association.

Larry E.

Great question. I had another blood test three months after I stopped
taking statins. The creatinine level on that blood test was 0.9. I no
longer have any muscle pains. I still have some memory problems. My
kidneys are working much better but not as well as they worked before I
started to take statins and various types of blood pressure pills. So far,
the only blood pressure medication that I can take is Norvasc 5 mg (each
day). I am 55 years old.
Jason

--
NEWSGROUP SUBSCRIBERS MOTTO
We respect those subscribers that ask for advice or provide advice.
We do NOT respect the subscribers that enjoy criticizing people.

It seems to me I heard somewhere that Jason wrote in article
<[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden]
wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It seems to me I heard somewhere that Jason wrote in article
<[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

There have been several well known people that are now disabled as a
result of taking statins. I don't want to be disabled. If I could take
statins without having side effects--I would take them. Upon request, I
will provide the names of two of those famous people--they are both former
doctors.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Can you give us the names of those well known people? I can't recall
that I've every heard about any that were well known to me.

Quoted message said:

page 87--Dr. Art Ulene--he appeared on various television shows.
page 15, 16,77,88 Dr. Duane Graveline
Doctor was a doctor that treated astronants.

No, Jason, what I asked for was the names of "several well known people
that are now disabled as a result of taking statins," which you implied
you knew. What you gave me was the names of two widely publicized
doctors, and IMO neither is a neutral party in statin and alternative
medicine issues.
--
Don Kirkman

Don Kirkman said:

It seems to me I heard somewhere that Jason wrote in article
<[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden]
wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It seems to me I heard somewhere that Jason wrote in article
<[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>There have been several well known people that are now disabled as a
>result of taking statins. I don't want to be disabled. If I could take
>statins without having side effects--I would take them. Upon request, I
>will provide the names of two of those famous people--they are both former
>doctors.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Can you give us the names of those well known people? I can't recall
that I've every heard about any that were well known to me.

Quoted message said:

page 87--Dr. Art Ulene--he appeared on various television shows.
page 15, 16,77,88 Dr. Duane Graveline
Doctor was a doctor that treated astronants.

No, Jason, what I asked for was the names of "several well known people
that are now disabled as a result of taking statins," which you implied
you knew. What you gave me was the names of two widely publicized
doctors, and IMO neither is a neutral party in statin and alternative
medicine issues.
--
Don Kirkman

Of course they aren't. They've been injured by drugs. Quit playing this
mind-f**king horseshit on Jason.

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden]

Quoted message said:

It seems to me I heard somewhere that Jason wrote in article
<[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden]
wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It seems to me I heard somewhere that Jason wrote in article
<[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>There have been several well known people that are now disabled as a
>result of taking statins. I don't want to be disabled. If I could take
>statins without having side effects--I would take them. Upon request, I
>will provide the names of two of those famous people--they are both former
>doctors.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Can you give us the names of those well known people? I can't recall
that I've every heard about any that were well known to me.

Quoted message said:

page 87--Dr. Art Ulene--he appeared on various television shows.
page 15, 16,77,88 Dr. Duane Graveline
Doctor was a doctor that treated astronants.

No, Jason, what I asked for was the names of "several well known people
that are now disabled as a result of taking statins," which you implied
you knew. What you gave me was the names of two widely publicized
doctors, and IMO neither is a neutral party in statin and alternative
medicine issues.

I told you in my post that they were famous people. I advise you to visit
this website and download the report. The lady that wrote the report has a
husband that is now disabled:
http://www.freewebs.com/stopped_our-statins/StatinFAQ_031305wTOCv4.pdf

--
NEWSGROUP SUBSCRIBERS MOTTO
We respect those subscribers that ask for advice or provide advice.
We do NOT respect the subscribers that enjoy criticizing people.

On 13 Dec 2005 17:38:43 -0800, "Tony Wesley" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

matt weber said:

Keep in mind that these drugs are far from harmless, and some pretty
awful things have happened to people taking them. It is a calculated
risk either way. We don't have 30 years of experience with them, and
to be blunt, I am not a big fan of suggesting people takes drugs for
very long periods of time unless we have a safety record that goes
back a very long time.

I understand your concern. But we'll never get a safety record of
people with long term use of any drug if people don't take them for
long periods of time. Someone has to be first.

Which is why I said to my Endo when he suggested Rezulin, "If you
don't mind, I'll let someone else complete the clinical trials." My
endo was not impressed with the remark. A couple years later, after a
few deaths, a few liver transplants, and a few billion dollars in
product liability lawsuits, I think he had a much better
understanding....

I spent more than a decade in the ethical drug industry, where
unethical practices seem to predominate. Great skill is often used in
figuring out way to prevent unpleasant results for entering into the
study. So the first several years of patient use are really the phase
IV clinical trials. The bind is for the most part, the physicians and
patients carry most of the risks in 'phase IV', and unpleasant
surprises are a lot more common than you think....

It seems to me I heard somewhere that Jason wrote in article
<[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden]
wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It seems to me I heard somewhere that Jason wrote in article
<[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden]
wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> It seems to me I heard somewhere that Jason wrote in article
> <[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> >There have been several well known people that are now disabled as a
> >result of taking statins. I don't want to be disabled. If I could take
> >statins without having side effects--I would take them. Upon request, I
> >will provide the names of two of those famous people--they are both former
> >doctors.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Can you give us the names of those well known people? I can't recall
> that I've every heard about any that were well known to me.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

page 87--Dr. Art Ulene--he appeared on various television shows.
page 15, 16,77,88 Dr. Duane Graveline
Doctor was a doctor that treated astronants.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

No, Jason, what I asked for was the names of "several well known people
that are now disabled as a result of taking statins," which you implied
you knew. What you gave me was the names of two widely publicized
doctors, and IMO neither is a neutral party in statin and alternative
medicine issues.

Quoted message said:

I told you in my post that they were famous people.

I know that's what you wrote; that's why I'm asking for their names. The
two you offered are not damaged by statins, so I want to know which well
known people have been.

Quoted message said:

I advise you to visit
this website and download the report.

That shouldn't be necessary since you apparently have the names already.
Who are some of them?

Quoted message said:

The lady that wrote the report has a
husband that is now disabled:
http://www.freewebs.com/stopped_our-statins/StatinFAQ_031305wTOCv4.pdf

Apparently that link doesn't work; tried three times and never reached
it. BTW, if that famous person is Sharon Hope, apart from the statin
wars I don't know that she's "well known."

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden]

Quoted message said:

It seems to me I heard somewhere that Jason wrote in article
<[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden]
wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It seems to me I heard somewhere that Jason wrote in article
<[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden]
>wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> It seems to me I heard somewhere that Jason wrote in article
>> <[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> >There have been several well known people that are now disabled as a
>> >result of taking statins. I don't want to be disabled. If I could take
>> >statins without having side effects--I would take them. Upon request, I
>> >will provide the names of two of those famous people--they are

both former

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> >doctors.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> Can you give us the names of those well known people? I can't recall
>> that I've every heard about any that were well known to me.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>page 87--Dr. Art Ulene--he appeared on various television shows.
>page 15, 16,77,88 Dr. Duane Graveline
>Doctor was a doctor that treated astronants.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

No, Jason, what I asked for was the names of "several well known people
that are now disabled as a result of taking statins," which you implied
you knew. What you gave me was the names of two widely publicized
doctors, and IMO neither is a neutral party in statin and alternative
medicine issues.

Quoted message said:

I told you in my post that they were famous people.

I know that's what you wrote; that's why I'm asking for their names. The
two you offered are not damaged by statins, so I want to know which well
known people have been.

Quoted message said:

I advise you to visit
this website and download the report.

That shouldn't be necessary since you apparently have the names already.
Who are some of them?

Quoted message said:

The lady that wrote the report has a
husband that is now disabled:
http://www.freewebs.com/stopped_our-statins/StatinFAQ_031305wTOCv4.pdf

Apparently that link doesn't work; tried three times and never reached
it. BTW, if that famous person is Sharon Hope, apart from the statin
wars I don't know that she's "well known."

http://www.freewebs.com/stopped_our_statins/StatinFAQ_03130wTOCv4.pdf

Sorry about that--the above URL should work.
You need to buy this book and read what Dr. Cohen wrote about
Doctor Art Ulene and Doctor Duane Graveline. Both doctors developed
amnesia after taking statins. Dr. Graveline's wife found him wandering
aimlessly in the woods behind his house.
Did you visit:
http://www.spacedoc.net
If the above URL does not work, try
http://www.space-doc.net

--
NEWSGROUP SUBSCRIBERS MOTTO
We respect those subscribers that ask for advice or provide advice.
We do NOT respect the subscribers that enjoy criticizing people.

In article said:

Susan wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

x-no-archive: yes

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Larry wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Let's put it this way. If someone has a hx of heart disease and they
have high LDL cholesterol (and especially if they have low or medium
HDL), one has to have a way to keep the coronary arteries from
building enough plaque to cause a clot to cause an MI. If you can find
another way to do that? Great. If you want to take the risk of having
annual cardiac catheterizations along with periodic angioplasties and
coronary bypass surgeries? Great. But if neither of these options
appeals to you or is successful for you, then you need to be on a statin.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Or pantethine, or fish oil. And a low GL diet. No one "needs" to be on
a statin, as if it's the only option. Surely it isn't the safest/most
effective in terms of risk/benefit.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Susan

I did say "If you can find another way to do that? Great.". I personally
don't believe you are likley to find a significant LDL benefit from
these ... but they may be worth a try. I would disagree with the
statement "No one 'needs' to be on a statin". There are people who do
need to be on them.

Quoted message said:

Larry E.

There are, but who are they? It depends on the amounts of
each of the various types of the lipids, and this can require
more than just the LDL, HDL, and triglyceride readings.

There is also the "optimal" level for an individual, which
almost certainly varies. LDL serves a necessary purpose,
and there really has not been any study, taking into account
the various factors. Cholesterol levels tend to be higher
in older seniors, and one effect, also verified in younger
people, is that it plays a role in fighting infection.

This last may give distorted results in clinical trials, as
those involved are under greater medical care. There also
is the problem of dropouts, and the usual method to handle
them in medical trials is definitely flawed.

Besides the clear muscular and liver problems, statins have
been claimed to increase the incidence of cancers, and to
cause adverse memory and other braine effects. There are
other methods to avoid clots and plaque than reducing
cholesterol. A real multivariate study by people considering
the total picture is needed, but are there any medical
researchers capable of doing such? If they have had the
usual statistical methods courses, they would have to
unlearn most of that, and think in terms of multivariate
probabilities. This is what they should do in any case.

--
This address is for information only. I do not claim that these views
are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University.
Herman Rubin, Department of Statistics, Purdue University
[email hidden] Phone: (765)494-6054 FAX: (765)494-0558

x-no-archive: yes

Larry said:

I did say "If you can find another way to do that? Great.". I personally
don't believe you are likley to find a significant LDL benefit from
these ... but they may be worth a try.

Your belief doesn't trump the peer reviewed scientific reports.
Anecdotally speaking, it doesn't trump my 70 point LDL reduction from 3
mos. of pantethine coupled with a very high sat fat diet at that same
time. My total would've been lowered more, except for the simultaneous
increase in my HDL up to 70.

I would disagree with the

Quoted message said:

statement "No one 'needs' to be on a statin". There are people who do
need to be on them.

I would disagree with your personal opinion.

Susan

In article <[email hidden]>,

Don Kirkman said:

It seems to me I heard somewhere that Jason wrote in article
<[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden]
wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It seems to me I heard somewhere that Jason wrote in article
<[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>There have been several well known people that are now disabled as a
>result of taking statins. I don't want to be disabled. If I could take
>statins without having side effects--I would take them. Upon request, I
>will provide the names of two of those famous people--they are both former
>doctors.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Can you give us the names of those well known people? I can't recall
that I've every heard about any that were well known to me.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

page 87--Dr. Art Ulene--he appeared on various television shows.
page 15, 16,77,88 Dr. Duane Graveline
Doctor was a doctor that treated astronants.

Quoted message said:

No, Jason, what I asked for was the names of "several well known people
that are now disabled as a result of taking statins," which you implied
you knew. What you gave me was the names of two widely publicized
doctors, and IMO neither is a neutral party in statin and alternative
medicine issues.

I doubt that Dr. Graveline was prone to alternative
medicine issues, given that the government used him.

I have seen Dr. Art Ulene on national television, and
he definitely did not seem to be a medical heretic.
--
This address is for information only. I do not claim that these views
are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University.
Herman Rubin, Department of Statistics, Purdue University
[email hidden] Phone: (765)494-6054 FAX: (765)494-0558

It seems to me I heard somewhere that Jason wrote in article
<[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden]
wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It seems to me I heard somewhere that Jason wrote in article
<[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden]
wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> It seems to me I heard somewhere that Jason wrote in article
> <[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> >In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden]
> >wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> >> It seems to me I heard somewhere that Jason wrote in article
> >> <[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

> >> >There have been several well known people that are now disabled as a
> >> >result of taking statins. I don't want to be disabled. If I could take
> >> >statins without having side effects--I would take them. Upon request, I
> >> >will provide the names of two of those famous people--they are

both former

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> >> >doctors.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> >> Can you give us the names of those well known people? I can't recall
> >> that I've every heard about any that were well known to me.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> >page 87--Dr. Art Ulene--he appeared on various television shows.
> >page 15, 16,77,88 Dr. Duane Graveline
> >Doctor was a doctor that treated astronants.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> No, Jason, what I asked for was the names of "several well known people
> that are now disabled as a result of taking statins," which you implied
> you knew. What you gave me was the names of two widely publicized
> doctors, and IMO neither is a neutral party in statin and alternative
> medicine issues.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I told you in my post that they were famous people.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I know that's what you wrote; that's why I'm asking for their names. The
two you offered are not damaged by statins, so I want to know which well
known people have been.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I advise you to visit
this website and download the report.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

That shouldn't be necessary since you apparently have the names already.
Who are some of them?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The lady that wrote the report has a
husband that is now disabled:
http://www.freewebs.com/stopped_our-statins/StatinFAQ_031305wTOCv4.pdf

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Apparently that link doesn't work; tried three times and never reached
it. BTW, if that famous person is Sharon Hope, apart from the statin
wars I don't know that she's "well known."

Quoted message said:

http://www.freewebs.com/stopped_our_statins/StatinFAQ_03130wTOCv4.pdf

Sorry about that--the above URL should work.
You need to buy this book and read what Dr. Cohen wrote about
Doctor Art Ulene and Doctor Duane Graveline. Both doctors developed
amnesia after taking statins. Dr. Graveline's wife found him wandering
aimlessly in the woods behind his house.

Are they *disabled* from the amnesia? If so, they shouldn't be treating
or advising patients. If not, they don't qualify for your contention of
disability.

No, I have no interest in Graveline himself. AFAIK he's not disabled.

x-no-archive: yes

Don Kirkman said:

Are they *disabled* from the amnesia? If so, they shouldn't be treating
or advising patients. If not, they don't qualify for your contention of
disability.

Is it your contention that no one with a disability should attempt to
continue working? Having cognition or memory problems wouldn't
necessarily preclude anyone from treating patients, though it would
require compensatory tools, such as voice recorders, more note taking, etc.

Quoted message said:

No, I have no interest in Graveline himself. AFAIK he's not disabled.

One needn't be in a vegetative state in order to be disabled. One need
only to have experienced limitations that previously did not exist.
There are degrees of disability.

Susan

Susan said:

x-no-archive: yes

Don Kirkman said:

Are they *disabled* from the amnesia? If so, they shouldn't be treating
or advising patients. If not, they don't qualify for your contention of
disability.

Quoted message said:

Is it your contention that no one with a disability should attempt to
continue working?

I'm going to nominate that sentence for the strawman post of the month.

It seems to me I heard somewhere that Susan wrote in article
<[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

x-no-archive: yes

Quoted message said:

Don Kirkman wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Are they *disabled* from the amnesia? If so, they shouldn't be treating
or advising patients. If not, they don't qualify for your contention of
disability.

Quoted message said:

Is it your contention that no one with a disability should attempt to
continue working? Having cognition or memory problems wouldn't
necessarily preclude anyone from treating patients, though it would
require compensatory tools, such as voice recorders, more note taking, etc.

No, I wrote specifically of two individuals, not generally.

I would think cognition or memory problems might be of concern to the
medical licensing authorities, maybe with some allowance for what is
forgotten or not recognized.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

No, I have no interest in Graveline himself. AFAIK he's not disabled.

Quoted message said:

One needn't be in a vegetative state in order to be disabled. One need
only to have experienced limitations that previously did not exist.
There are degrees of disability.

So just how disabled is Graveline? Remember that Jason says these are
two well known people disabled from statins; the only disability he has
mention is amnesia, and he hasn't discussed whether it is mild or
serious, temporary or permanent; he *does* say they are "now disabled.".

I would think serious amnesia might disqualify a doctor, for instance,
but not necessarily a plumber or maintenance man (providing he remembers
his tools and his techniques).

x-no-archive: yes

Don Kirkman wrote:
o, I wrote specifically of two individuals, not generally.

Quoted message said:

I would think cognition or memory problems might be of concern to the
medical licensing authorities, maybe with some allowance for what is
forgotten or not recognized.

I don't believe the authorities investigate based upon someone's
hypothetical, but as a result of alleged or actual failure to practice
properly. There's a whole broad range of what's normal in terms of
memory, concentration, etc., with successful folks making the necessary
adjustments or developing compensatory habits.

Besides, in my life, I've only ever had one doc who could remember
anything. :-)

Quoted message said:

So just how disabled is Graveline? Remember that Jason says these are
two well known people disabled from statins; the only disability he has
mention is amnesia, and he hasn't discussed whether it is mild or
serious, temporary or permanent; he *does* say they are "now disabled.".

I'm not interested in Graveline or other famous statin injured folks.
I've no doubt that statin injuries like my mother's are real. I think
that it serves no one to insist that it isn't true. It's an important
avenue of investigation that shouldn't be left to the drug companies to
report on.

Quoted message said:

I would think serious amnesia might disqualify a doctor, for instance,
but not necessarily a plumber or maintenance man (providing he remembers
his tools and his techniques).

If a plumber with amnesia can remember his tools and techniques, why
couldn't a doctor?

Fact is, doctors are require to document a lot more, so memory becomes
less crucial in following up a treatment plan. Also certain deficits
can be disabilities without being wholly disqualifying. Unless the
amnesia is total, involves forgetting everything the doc ever learned,
any assessment of his ability to practice would have to rest on claims
by peers or patients of incompetence witnessed in practice, not on
theoretical concerns.

Susan

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden]

Quoted message said:

It seems to me I heard somewhere that Susan wrote in article
<[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

x-no-archive: yes

Quoted message said:

Don Kirkman wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Are they *disabled* from the amnesia? If so, they shouldn't be treating
or advising patients. If not, they don't qualify for your contention of
disability.

Quoted message said:

Is it your contention that no one with a disability should attempt to
continue working? Having cognition or memory problems wouldn't
necessarily preclude anyone from treating patients, though it would
require compensatory tools, such as voice recorders, more note taking, etc.

No, I wrote specifically of two individuals, not generally.

I would think cognition or memory problems might be of concern to the
medical licensing authorities, maybe with some allowance for what is
forgotten or not recognized.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

No, I have no interest in Graveline himself. AFAIK he's not disabled.

Quoted message said:

One needn't be in a vegetative state in order to be disabled. One need
only to have experienced limitations that previously did not exist.
There are degrees of disability.

So just how disabled is Graveline? Remember that Jason says these are
two well known people disabled from statins; the only disability he has
mention is amnesia, and he hasn't discussed whether it is mild or
serious, temporary or permanent; he *does* say they are "now disabled.".

I would think serious amnesia might disqualify a doctor, for instance,
but not necessarily a plumber or maintenance man (providing he remembers
his tools and his techniques).

Hello,
Based upon the information about those two famous doctors that is mentioned in
WHAT YOU MUST KNOW ABOUT STATIN DRUGS AND THEIR NATURAL ALTERNATIVES
by Jay S. Cohen, M.D.
those two doctors no longer practice medicine. Whether or not they now
have other jobs--I don't know. I would not want a doctor operating on me
that
had serious memory problems--would you?
Jason

--
NEWSGROUP SUBSCRIBERS MOTTO
We respect those subscribers that ask for advice or provide advice.
We do NOT respect the subscribers that enjoy criticizing people.

x-no-archive: yes

Jason said:

Hello,
Based upon the information about those two famous doctors that is mentioned in
WHAT YOU MUST KNOW ABOUT STATIN DRUGS AND THEIR NATURAL ALTERNATIVES
by Jay S. Cohen, M.D.
those two doctors no longer practice medicine. Whether or not they now
have other jobs--I don't know. I would not want a doctor operating on me
that
had serious memory problems--would you?
Jason

It would depend on how it affected their performance. I'd worry more
about whether their hands and vision were steady and if they could
concentrate and maintain attention.

Susan