Steel Weights and Characteristics

(John) said:

I've been looking at a frameset with Reynolds 725. Is this
a lighter steel than 853?

All steels weigh just about 7.85 kg/dm³, pretty much the
same as iron.

Quoted message said:

How does it compare to 531? What tubeset with Columbus or
True Temper are roughly equivalent?

The differences in the weights of good quality tubesets are
surprisingly small.

Quoted message said:

How do the ride qualities of 725 compare to other tubesets?

In a blind test of bikes built with a variety of tubesets,
done by "Bicycle Guide" (remember them?) in their February
1996 edition, "experts" couldn't tell the difference between
bikes built with "boutique" tubesets and one built with
straight gauge, "bottom-of-the-line" tubes.

jeverett3<AT>earthlink<DOT>net
home.earthlink.net~jeverett3Open ↗

modulus of these steels are all pretty much identical.

other than that;

1. thicker tube wall feels stiffer.
2. thinner tube wall is lighter.
3. thinner tube wall is typically better quality alloy so
just as strong.

853 is reynolds top of the line steel right now. 725 is
a cheaper product, but still decent quality seamless
tube fwiu.

no idea on equivalencies - the reynolds site appears to be
down so no links to their properties page.

ride quality is all about tube wall thickness.

John said:

I've been looking at a frameset with Reynolds 725. Is this
a lighter steel than 853? How does it compare to 531? What
tubeset with Columbus or True Temper are roughly
equivalent?

How do the ride qualities of 725 compare to other
tubesets?

jim beam said:

ride quality is all about tube wall thickness.

Ride quality is all about fork compliance, saddle
flexibility, and tire pressures.

jeverett3<AT>earthlink<DOT>net
home.earthlink.net~jeverett3Open ↗

John Everett said:

jim beam said:

ride quality is all about tube wall thickness.

Ride quality is all about fork compliance, saddle
flexibility, and tire pressures.

do saddles or tires affect one's choice of frame tube set?
no. so ride quality /of the frame/ is all about tube wall
thickness. thanks for prompting the clarification.

Quoted message said:

jeverett3<AT>earthlink<DOT>net
home.earthlink.net~jeverett3Open ↗

jim beam said:

John Everett said:

Ride quality is all about fork compliance, saddle
flexibility, and tire pressures.

do saddles or tires affect one's choice of frame tube set?
no. so ride quality /of the frame/ is all about tube wall
thickness. thanks for prompting the clarification.

Still not very clear, though. If one defines "ride quality"
as the attenuation of road shock, the frame's contribution
is negligible compared to those of tires, saddles, forks.

If there's another definition of ride quality, please
elaborate.
--
terry morse Palo Alto, CA bike.terrymorse.combike.terrymorse.comOpen ↗

"Terry Morse" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

jim beam said:

John Everett said:

Ride quality is all about fork compliance, saddle
flexibility, and tire pressures.

do saddles or tires affect one's choice of frame tube
set? no. so ride quality /of the frame/ is all about
tube wall thickness. thanks for prompting the
clarification.

Still not very clear, though. If one defines "ride
quality" as the attenuation of road shock, the frame's
contribution is negligible compared to those of tires,
saddles, forks.

If there's another definition of ride quality, please
elaborate.
--
terry morse Palo Alto, CA bike.terrymorse.combike.terrymorse.comOpen ↗

Are we gonna get into this AGAIN?

Are y'all saying that two frames one with thicker straight
gauge tubing and one with lighter butted tubing are going to
react EXACTLY the same way? How bout one AL frame and one
steel frame? Ti anyone? CF?

You can't seriously expect every frame material to ride
EXACTLY the same, can you?

Granted, if you run lower pressures in bigger tires, it
masks a lot of what the frame does, but given the same
wheels, tire pressures, etc. frames react differently
to inputs.

My SLX Battaglin and my SL Battaglin were two COMPLETELY
different rides. I wish I still had them so any of y'all
could come over and try them out.

M

SDMike said:

Are y'all saying that two frames one with thicker straight
gauge tubing and one with lighter butted tubing are going
to react EXACTLY the same way? How bout one AL frame and
one steel frame? Ti anyone? CF?

It depends on what you mean by "ride". If it's compliance,
the differences between frames is negligible. If ride means
geometry, wheelbase, bottom bracket stiffness, or fork
trail, these things are noticeable between bikes.

Quoted message said:

You can't seriously expect every frame material to ride
EXACTLY the same, can you?

Define ride.

Quoted message said:

My SLX Battaglin and my SL Battaglin were two COMPLETELY
different rides. I wish I still had them so any of y'all
could come over and try them out.

Did they have the same dimensions, and did the have the same
components, and were the tires identical and pumped up to
the same pressure? You see where this is going.
--
terry morse Palo Alto, CA bike.terrymorse.combike.terrymorse.comOpen ↗

Terry Morse said:

jim beam said:

John Everett said:

Ride quality is all about fork compliance, saddle
flexibility, and tire pressures.

do saddles or tires affect one's choice of frame tube set?
no. so ride quality /of the frame/ is all about tube wall
thickness. thanks for prompting the clarification.

Still not very clear, though. If one defines "ride
quality" as the attenuation of road shock, the frame's
contribution is negligible compared to those of tires,
saddles, forks.

interesting you mention forks attenuating road shock - most
forks use curved tube. interesting because i recently got a
bianchi ev3 - it has curved seat stays. it seems to make a
remarkable difference to shock attenuation compared to my
other al framed bike which has straight stays. [this is the
same rear wheel/tire & saddle/seatpost, just to be sure!]
easily the most comfortable road bike i've ever had. can't
say i was anticipating such a difference.

Quoted message said:

If there's another definition of ride quality, please
elaborate.

this is personal, but when i'm looking for "ride quality",
i'm interested in things like lateral flex & head tube vs.
seat tube torsion. i ride larger frames and find that some
of the lightweight steel frames can be very flexible in
these modes. my experience is that frames that are stiffer
in torsion seem to be highly shimmy resistant, and i
/really/ want that.

Quoted message said:

--
terry morse Palo Alto, CA bike.terrymorse.combike.terrymorse.comOpen ↗

SDMike said:

Are y'all saying that two frames one with thicker straight
gauge tubing and one with lighter butted tubing are going
to react EXACTLY the same way? How bout one AL frame and
one steel frame? Ti anyone? CF?

You can't seriously expect every frame material to ride
EXACTLY the same, can you?

Granted, if you run lower pressures in bigger tires, it
masks a lot of what the frame does, but given the same
wheels, tire pressures, etc. frames react differently
to inputs.

My SLX Battaglin and my SL Battaglin were two COMPLETELY
different rides. I wish I still had them so any of y'all
could come over and try them out.

Sorry Mike, you have just disproven your own argument. You
could have hardly picked a worse example as evidence to show
that bikes built with different tubes have different ride
qualities. Columbus SL and SLX tubes are about 99%
identical. They are made from the same material (Columbus
"Cyclex", a chromium-molybdenum alloy) and have the same
diameters and wall thicknesses. The only difference is that
on some of the SLX tubes (only the top, down and seat tube,
and not the chainstays, seat stays or head tube) there are
short lengths of very small raised helical ridges on the
inside surfaces at the ends. These ridges add a total of
about 1 ounce of steel.

Information on SL and SLX tube dimensions and weights:

desperadocycles.comTubingOpen ↗
_Properties_For_Non_True_Temper_Tubing.htm
poli.cs.vsb.czcolumbus.htmOpen ↗

Keep in mind that since the helical ridges are only at the
ends of the tubes, much of them are cut away when the raw
tubes are cut to length to build the frame, making finished
SL and SLX tubing even more similar (maybe closer to 99.5%
similar). On a small frame, there may be very little of
these ridges left at all.

You may feel that your two Battaglins may ride differently,
but since the tube sets are nearly identical, the
differences can't be from the tubing. You need to look else
where to explain the differences.

Mark McMaster [email hidden]

( :< )

Quoted message said:

interesting you mention forks attenuating road shock -
most forks use curved tube.

( :< )

Here we go! Straight fork = curved fork. The thickness of
the material or distribution of carbon has much more to do
with "road shock attenuation" than the curve.

( :< )

Quoted message said:

interesting because i recently got a bianchi ev3 - it has
curved seat stays. it seems to make a remarkable difference
to shock attenuation ...

( :< )

I'll say it again: The thickness of the material (butting)
or distribution of carbon has much more to do with "road
shock attenuation" than the curves.

I would go further to suggest that your affection for your
new ride with her sensuous curves (a joy I know well; ahhhh,
just to gaze upon the curvy rear triangle of my Paramount
Ti) has blinded you to the realities of bicycle frame
engineering.

App

Appkiller said:

( :< )

Quoted message said:

interesting you mention forks attenuating road shock -
most forks use curved tube.

( :< )

Here we go! Straight fork = curved fork. The thickness of
the material or distribution of carbon has much more to do
with "road shock attenuation" than the curve.

in terms of geometry, yes, curved fork = straight fork. in
terms of compressive load rigidity, curved fork /= straight
fork. a straight compressive load on a tube is essentially
dependant on the material & at high loads, the buckling
mode. with a bent tube, buckling mode is preordained by the
tube shape and straight compression is trivialized.

and when you refer to "distribution of carbon", you mean
carbon forks? i was originally referring to steel tube sets.
carbon /does/ attenuate shock, fwiw, but this is straying
from the o.p.'s question.

Quoted message said:

( :< )

Quoted message said:

interesting because i recently got a bianchi ev3 - it has
curved seat stays. it seems to make a remarkable
difference to shock attenuation ...

( :< )

I'll say it again: The thickness of the material (butting)
or distribution of carbon has much more to do with "road
shock attenuation" than the curves.

I would go further to suggest that your affection for your
new ride with her sensuous curves (a joy I know well;
ahhhh, just to gaze upon the curvy rear triangle of my
Paramount Ti) has blinded you to the realities of bicycle
frame engineering.

well, this is the long running bear-baiting contest at r.b.t
isn't it? nothing like subjectivity to fuel an argument.
failing my willingness to rent an accelerometer, if you
happen to live near, come try out my two aluminum road
bikes. one will shake the fillings out of your teeth. the
other feels like grandma's sofa. same
wheels/tires/seatpost/saddle.

Quoted message said:

App

( :< )

Quoted message said:

well, this is the long running bear-baiting contest at
r.b.t isn't it? nothing like subjectivity to fuel an
argument. failing my willingness to rent an accelerometer,
if you happen to live near, come try out my two aluminum
road bikes. one will shake the fillings out of your teeth.
the other feels like grandma's sofa. same
wheels/tires/seatpost/saddle.

( :< )

I don't dispute your claim that the rides are wildly
different. I had a Klein Stage - damn, that puppy was stiff!

My disagreement comes in when you state s-bend stays do that
for you. It is the engineering of wall thickness that does
it. Butting and the selective use of overall tube size and
tapering is how frame builders customize and/or control the
feel of the ride.

Maybe a individual with some frame building experience
can comment.

App

Appkiller said:

( :< )

Quoted message said:

well, this is the long running bear-baiting contest at
r.b.t isn't it? nothing like subjectivity to fuel an
argument. failing my willingness to rent an accelerometer,
if you happen to live near, come try out my two aluminum
road bikes. one will shake the fillings out of your teeth.
the other feels like grandma's sofa. same
wheels/tires/seatpost/saddle.

( :< )

I don't dispute your claim that the rides are wildly
different. I had a Klein Stage - damn, that puppy
was stiff!

My disagreement comes in when you state s-bend stays do
that for you. It is the engineering of wall thickness that
does it.

having ridden many different frames with different feels, i
would like to agree with you. but the math says different.
it turns out that there's almost no material difference in
straight compression compliance between different tubes
and/or materials.

Quoted message said:

Butting and the selective use of overall tube size and
tapering is how frame builders customize and/or control
the feel of the ride.

these factors /do/ materially affect frame behavior in
bending & torsion.

Quoted message said:

Maybe a individual with some frame building experience can
comment.

App