Strenghting leg muscle

Quoted message said:

I have been training for a marathon race in this spring, but I am
finally convinced that I am not ready for the distance. At this
moment, 15-16 miles seems to be a limit. I probably could walk for the
rest, but I don't see the point of doing so. I would like to ask for
a training advice to increase running distance for a marathon race
sometime in the future. It looks like the weak muscle at my legs,
especially calf muscles are keeping me from running further. What
kind of exercise would you recommend?

For the most part, the best exerscise will be running. However, just
increasing the distance of your long run is not the only thing. If you post
a typical training week, someone might be able to help you.

--
Phil M.

"Phil M." <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I have been training for a marathon race in this spring, but I am
finally convinced that I am not ready for the distance. At this
moment, 15-16 miles seems to be a limit. I probably could walk for the
rest, but I don't see the point of doing so. I would like to ask for
a training advice to increase running distance for a marathon race
sometime in the future. It looks like the weak muscle at my legs,
especially calf muscles are keeping me from running further. What
kind of exercise would you recommend?

For the most part, the best exerscise will be running. However, just
increasing the distance of your long run is not the only thing. If you

post

Quoted message said:

a typical training week, someone might be able to help you.

I have been running for about a year. A slow runner at about 10.5 min/mile
pace on a flat course.
I usually run 3-4 days a week 2-3 miles on weekdays, plus a long run on
Sat.
My short runs are mostly on a treadmill with variety of speed and inclines,
but nothing strenuous.
For the weekend run, I had been running rolling hills for 8-10 miles, but
recently changed to a very flat course so that I can experiment runnning
longer distance, 15 - 16miles I have never done any advanced training like
hill repeat or interval training.

yk said:

"Phil M." <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I have been training for a marathon race in this spring, but I am
finally convinced that I am not ready for the distance. At this
moment, 15-16 miles seems to be a limit. I probably could walk for the
rest, but I don't see the point of doing so. I would like to ask for
a training advice to increase running distance for a marathon race
sometime in the future. It looks like the weak muscle at my legs,
especially calf muscles are keeping me from running further. What
kind of exercise would you recommend?

For the most part, the best exerscise will be running. However, just
increasing the distance of your long run is not the only thing. If you

post

Quoted message said:

a typical training week, someone might be able to help you.

I have been running for about a year.

Quoted message said:

At this moment, 15-16 miles seems to be a limit.

In that context, "seems" may be the most important word.

You haven't been running that long. Plateaus happen. Adapt to that level
and move on when the time is right. Maybe fall or next spring is a more
appropriate time frame - depending on whether there was a particular
reason why you were aiming for that particular marathon or other
non-training related decisions. Enjoy the journey.

Quoted message said:

A slow runner at about 10.5 min/mile
pace on a flat course.

Quoted message said:

I usually run 3-4 days a week 2-3 miles on weekdays, plus a long run on
Sat.

So your non-long run mileage is about 6 to 12 mpw? making your total
mileage about 21-27 mpw?

Quoted message said:

My short runs are mostly on a treadmill with variety of speed and inclines,
but nothing strenuous.
For the weekend run, I had been running rolling hills for 8-10 miles, but
recently changed to a very flat course so that I can experiment runnning
longer distance, 15 - 16miles

If this is every weekend, you might experiment with increasing the
length of your short runs and doing your long run every other week. IOW,
build some additional base before extending your long run. Consider a
2-wk microcycle. Some people suggest long run shouldn't be greater than
1/3 of weekly mileage, others of us may have long run closer to 50% but
only do them every other week. There are people who only do 1 really
long run (many hours) per week, and that's their training (adequate to
finish). I included those just to give you an idea of range of how
people train. But I think you'll find many (most?) newer and/or low
mileage folks are probably in the 30-50% range as far as long run as
percent of total volume is concerned and may only do them every other
week (2-wk microcycle).

Also, sounds like your weekday runs are all on tm and your long run is
the only one not. So there's probably some adjustment there.

Quoted message said:

I have never done any advanced training like
hill repeat or interval training.

No need to when your building base. Hills can help with strength, but
doing them aerobically, like your rolling hill course. Also, you might
consider judging progress by time and effort, rather than miles. Yes,
you have to run the miles in a race, but your body's physiology responds
to time and intensity. A couple hours on rolling hills (esp if trails)
*may* provide more benefits than a similar time, but longer distance, on
flats. (The *may* is because it depends on goal, and I have trained
flats when it was more specific.)

FWIW, you're about where I was last summer - similar base, similar long
runs but every 12 days - and while they were comfortable, I didn't feel
I wanted to run/hike much longer on that level base. My long runs
haven't progressed much yet (winter vs summer is different in AK), but
runs of that duration are much easier this year, and I've built my base
larger to support the longer runs which I'll start in the next week or
so. (Remember the pyramid scheme with base at the bottom - can only
build so high and still be stable.) I do feel ready for the longer runs,
but not on snowshoes. We've just had such gorgeous snow conditions this
winter, that it's hard to leave them, and I did one more ss long run
higher up in the mountains (group ski) rather than starting extending on
the road hills (which are probably really busy with traffic). (It was a
new trailhead in the mountains opportunity vs crowded roads decision.)
The other thing different this year is recognizing the amount of
building I had to do is just pushed the weather a little more than I
usually do. Where I used to wait for the best weather to do my long runs
when I'm new to the distance, I'll do the long runs in windier or colder
weather. So my confidence level is higher now (perhaps falsely, but
that's life).

Dot

--
"The goal is training and adaptation, not destruction and injury."
- John Hardy
http://www.mountainrunning.coolrunning.com.au/misc/training.shtml

"Dot" <dot.h@#duh?att.net> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I usually run 3-4 days a week 2-3 miles on weekdays, plus a long run on
Sat.

So your non-long run mileage is about 6 to 12 mpw? making your total
mileage about 21-27 mpw?

Yes. I understand my mpw is rather low.

Quoted message said:

Also, sounds like your weekday runs are all on tm and your long run is
the only one not. So there's probably some adjustment there.

Yes, I should be able start running outside more. The day light is getting
longer and the weather is getting better. I live in WA, it should be much
easer than AK ;-).

Thank your for the advice.

yk said:

Yes. I understand my mpw is rather low.

It's a significant amount of running as a weekly total. It's just the
distribution: a handful of 2-3 milers doesn't do enough to prepare you
for your long run of 16+ miles. They're such different animals. Even
more so if all short runs are treadmill and the long run is road or
trail.

If you could work up to a couple say 5-8 milers during the week, even
at the expense of some of those shorter runs, I gotta think that'd
help.

As usual Dot gave you great advice.

What part of WA state?

yk said:

It looks like
the weak muscle at my legs, especially calf muscles are keeping me from
running further. What kind of exercise would you recommend?

BTW, heel raises help immensely with this, esp. if you do them on a
slant board or step *BUT* be VERY CAREFUL about how far below horizontal
you go - just enough to make it like a hill and raise up on tippy-toes.
(We do about 90 of these, 30 in each direction, in an xt class I take in
winter. And 90 toe raises to match.) Body-weight exercises like lunges
(multiple lengths and directions), split squats, and single-leg balance
squats and step ups also help. I've found those helpful, esp. from a
rehab perspective (assorted dysfunctional body parts). I've also found
it easier to overdo things with these exercises than with actually
running, so when in doubt I run. If you do any of these, add very
carefully to your running - they're the same legs and too rapid increase
in volume can cause injury.

But I think your challenge to getting more distance is getting more
volume, esp. outside, as already mentioned. Just adding some other
suggestions.

Dot

--
"The goal is training and adaptation, not destruction and injury."
- John Hardy
http://www.mountainrunning.coolrunning.com.au/misc/training.shtml

.. said:

BTW, heel raises help immensely with this, esp. if you do them on a
slant board or step *BUT* be VERY CAREFUL about how far below horizontal
you go

Why's that, Dot?

I don't do heel raises, but I do drops on the stairs to stretch my
calves.

Charlie Pendejo said:

. said:

BTW, heel raises help immensely with this, esp. if you do them on a
slant board or step *BUT* be VERY CAREFUL about how far below horizontal
you go

Why's that, Dot?

I don't do heel raises, but I do drops on the stairs to stretch my
calves.

The potential issue is that throwing a lot of resistance against a stretched,
contracting muscle is a potential source of injury. Static stretching as you
do should be safe, dynamic stretching under load as Dot suggests can be
productive, but requires some caution.

Cheers,
--
Elflord

Reb said:

Pendejo said:

I do drops on the stairs to stretch my calves.

The potential issue is that throwing a lot of resistance against a stretched,
contracting muscle is a potential source of injury. Static stretching as you
do should be safe, dynamic stretching under load as Dot suggests can be
productive, but requires some caution.

Still, you've got me thinking - wonder if these heel drops could be a
contributor to my apparent PF. One detail is that I do these on a
metal spiral staircase in my apartment, and some of my shoes do a
lousy job of gripping the corner of the top step. In these shoes I
have to play around with foot placement, forward or back, and curl my
toes like claws to enhance friction and balance. This action seems to
stretch the "stuff" in my foot which must include the plantar fascia.

As much as calf stretching is supposed to be important for PF, it
seems like maybe I should skip this form of the stretch at least when
wearing certain shoes.

Charlie Pendejo said:

Reb said:

Pendejo said:

I do drops on the stairs to stretch my calves.

The potential issue is that throwing a lot of resistance against a stretched,
contracting muscle is a potential source of injury. Static stretching as you
do should be safe, dynamic stretching under load as Dot suggests can be
productive, but requires some caution.

Right. Esp. when I'm not familiar with a poster's attitude (in
particular, "some is good, more is better", which I'm also guilty of),
I'll throw that caveat in there.

I know I used to just do them flat since everybody cautioned about
dropping too far down, then we started doing our toe and heel raises on
a balance beam in my xt class. We're in bare feet (well, socks). We
stand on a low beam (about 8in off floor) and hold onto a regular
balance beam. (The instructor at times has stood on the regular beam and
done them free standing. He has gymnastics background and very good
balance.) What I've found now is that flat ones just don't give me the
range of motion needed. On most hills, the heel is going to be below the
toes, so that's the range I try to do my stretches in. I have a board I
prop on something. If I want a real challenge, I do them one legged
(like running), but do need to use a wall lightly for balance (my foot /
leg structure is weird for trying to balance only on toes with no
assistance).

When I'm hiking uphill, the calves seem to get more of a workout. When
I'm running, it's more on the quads. But I think I'm more on forefoot
when running and don't drop the heel as far as I do when hiking. Or it
could be a snow artifact since I don't remember that in the past, but
could be more awareness now. dunno.

Quoted message said:

Still, you've got me thinking - wonder if these heel drops could be a
contributor to my apparent PF. One detail is that I do these on a
metal spiral staircase in my apartment, and some of my shoes do a
lousy job of gripping the corner of the top step. In these shoes I
have to play around with foot placement, forward or back, and curl my
toes like claws to enhance friction and balance. This action seems to
stretch the "stuff" in my foot which must include the plantar fascia.

The clawing motion is what I've found most useful for PF, but in the
pulling-oneself-across-floor context. When I do heel raises, I'm not
conscious of my toes doing anything. I usually have wool clogs on at
home, but bare/sock feet in xt class.

Quoted message said:

As much as calf stretching is supposed to be important for PF, it
seems like maybe I should skip this form of the stretch at least when
wearing certain shoes.

The thing that seems most useful for me for keeping PF away are the toe
scrunches where you pull yourself across floor. I don't do as much calf
stretching as I used to, but I've found it's really easy for me to
overdo stretching, esp. combined with the running. I'm more comfortable
depending on my hill work to keep the calves and backs of legs, bottom
of feet stretched.

Sometimes I've found that while some stretching is good, too much
stretching can aggravate things so may stop it for a few days and see if
things settle down.

Good luck.

Dot

--
"The goal is training and adaptation, not destruction and injury."
- John Hardy
http://www.mountainrunning.coolrunning.com.au/misc/training.shtml

On Apr 2, 12:32 pm, "Charlie Pendejo" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Reb said:

Pendejo said:

I do drops on the stairs to stretch my calves.

Quoted message said:

The potential issue is that throwing a lot of resistance against a stretched,
contracting muscle is a potential source of injury. Static stretching as you
do should be safe, dynamic stretching under load as Dot suggests can be
productive, but requires some caution.

Still, you've got me thinking - wonder if these heel drops could be a
contributor to my apparent PF. One detail is that I do these on a
metal spiral staircase in my apartment, and some of my shoes do a
lousy job of gripping the corner of the top step. In these shoes I
have to play around with foot placement, forward or back, and curl my
toes like claws to enhance friction and balance. This action seems to
stretch the "stuff" in my foot which must include the plantar fascia.

As much as calf stretching is supposed to be important for PF, it
seems like maybe I should skip this form of the stretch at least when
wearing certain shoes.

In the old days, we (some of us anyway) use to use the collapse point
theory. Take your total mileage for a week and divide it by 7. Take
this result and multiply it by 3 that will give you the maximum
distance you can race. (note you must have been running this mileage
not just for a week but for a period of months.)

If you just wanted to finish a race you could run slower and take some
waling breaks -- this could push your collapse point out to 5 times
rather than 3 times your average daily distance.

The collapse point mentioned nothing about long runs. If you start out
running too long long runs, you'll get blood in your urine. Start out
with nothing longer than say 10 miles, then work your way up to 20 (I
use to run up to 30 but would take some walking breaks). Usually
people don't do long runs over 15 miles on a weekly basis. Do them
every other week. And don't quit. If you set out do do a long run
finish it otherwise quitting will become a habit. I've seen people
who have never finished a marathon after 20 or 30 starts -- don't
quit.

It took me 8 marathons before I knew what I was doing at that point I
knocked about an hour off my time -- it became a race rather than an
ordeal.

If you want to do other exercises, try one-legged squats (pistols).
Once you can do them -- do them with your eyes closed. If nothing
else, it will improve your balance. Do them as low as you can until
you can get all the way down. You can do them every day if you don't
go to exhaustion (try 10 to start).
They stretch you out somewhat too.

If you're really up to it, investigate doing dead lifts, these work
most of the muscles in the legs, backs etc.

Believe it or not, I use to shoot a powerful bow, it works your upper
back. Keeps your posture good for the long distance. Plus I've found
it has the same mental feeling as running.

I use to do push-ups too. You have to hold those spindly little things
called arms up for several hours in a marathon. Once they get tired,
you're gonna hunch over and your form is going to go to hell. You
don't need to do too many. Try 10 a day to start. I hate push-ups
most of all so I use to do them on my knuckles (learned that in
karate) I hated the push-ups but was fascinated by the pain of doing
them on the knuckles. In no time at all I was doing 50 on cement.
Except everyone was afraid to shake hands with me. Your knuckles (two
of them if done right) get a little big and calloused.

And most of all remember, you never beat a marathon; given enough
dedication and training you are allowed to become part of the
marathon. A marathon is a living thing held together by the legends
and suffering of those that do it.

And when you cross that finish say those magic words "Rejoice we
conquer." And when they then ask if they can help you say "No thank
you, I'm in control."
and you will be -- good luck on your important journey. A journey that
will one day show you that running is not an end in itself, but a tool
a vehicle. You will find that during your long runs you will find a
new friend -- yourself. You will find things that you never knew
existed.

"Charlie Pendejo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

What part of WA state?

Seattle area.

"Dot" <dot.h@#duh?att.net> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

yk said:

It looks like
the weak muscle at my legs, especially calf muscles are keeping me from
running further. What kind of exercise would you recommend?

BTW, heel raises help immensely with this, esp. if you do them on a
slant board or step *BUT* be VERY CAREFUL about how far below horizontal
you go - just enough to make it like a hill and raise up on tippy-toes.
(We do about 90 of these, 30 in each direction, in an xt class I take in
winter. And 90 toe raises to match.) Body-weight exercises like lunges
(multiple lengths and directions), split squats, and single-leg balance
squats and step ups also help. I've found those helpful, esp. from a
rehab perspective (assorted dysfunctional body parts). I've also found
it easier to overdo things with these exercises than with actually
running, so when in doubt I run. If you do any of these, add very
carefully to your running - they're the same legs and too rapid increase
in volume can cause injury.

But I think your challenge to getting more distance is getting more
volume, esp. outside, as already mentioned. Just adding some other
suggestions.

Good advice. Thanks.

"angus" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In the old days, we (some of us anyway) use to use the collapse point
theory. Take your total mileage for a week and divide it by 7. Take
this result and multiply it by 3 that will give you the maximum
distance you can race. (note you must have been running this mileage
not just for a week but for a period of months.)

Hhm... You are talking about >60mpw for a Marathon distance. I don't think
I can handle that much, at least for a while.

Quoted message said:

every other week. And don't quit. If you set out do do a long run
finish it otherwise quitting will become a habit. I've seen people
who have never finished a marathon after 20 or 30 starts -- don't
quit.

Good point.

Quoted message said:

I use to do push-ups too. You have to hold those spindly little things
called arms up for several hours in a marathon. Once they get tired,
you're gonna hunch over and your form is going to go to hell. You

Yes. even with 15mile run, I start feeling shoulder tightness.

Quoted message said:

And most of all remember, you never beat a marathon; given enough
dedication and training you are allowed to become part of the
marathon. A marathon is a living thing held together by the legends
and suffering of those that do it.

I understood. Thanks.