String underwear as base layer - why not?

Quoted message said:

So you're claiming that the surface area for water transport is 3D
with a synthetic BL rather than 2D? I'd really have to see some proof
of this being true in practical circumstances before I believe it.

Can' t speak for Dominic, but I don't see he's claiming that. Sweat
will form at particular hot-spots so with no help you'll have very
uneven distribution of liquid sweat. What a wicking BL will do is
spread it out more evenly, so the same amount of sweat is evaporating
from a greater area.

Quoted message said:

Actually, this would be an appalling bad test of real world
capability, because it fails to take account of the most important
factor - how well does a fabric do in not becoming saturated with
sweat in the first place?

Cotton fails miserably at that, because the fibres themselves absorb the
moisture. Your WBL just passes it on and up for easier evaporation.

Quoted message said:

That is the idea with a string vest too - it's what the holes are for.
The difference is that the synthetic BL relies on wicking a trapped
layer of moisture, while a string mesh simply allows the moisture to
exit while it is vaporous.

Indeed, though it won't move liquid as well, and won't be as warm. You
choose, you lose...

Quoted message said:

"Similar in concept" doesn't equal "as effective as".

Nor does it imply any converse degree of performance, however.

Quoted message said:

In fact, I think the whole model of cooling and warmth is very
different to what you are assuming. In fact, your model of "the BL
prevents chill from stopping evaporation on the skin" has to be wrong
- if it was correct, there would be no evaporative cooling and wearers
would collapse of dehydration or overheating.

Why?
There is evaporative cooling, but it takes place from the BL surface
rather than the skin. The heat still comes from the body.
Conduction is a good cooling method too, which is why you get cold when
your sweat cools down rather than evaporates. Main problem with
conductive cooling is it happens when you want to stay warm, not when
you want to cool off. Which is why cotton has been deprecated as a BL.

Quoted message said:

The way a BL has to work
is allow evaporative cooling to work while the user is sweating, but
to replace the wet air as quickly as possible with dry air. Now,
synthetic materials used in modern BLs may have micropores to allow
this

They don't have micropores.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Quoted message said:

True. But I don't think anyone challenges the notion that string vests
*are* warm

Indeed not, but are they /optimally/ warm for your average bod on a UK hill?

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

I've recently returned from a trip to the Dolomites and the outdoor
shops I went in had a lot of this string vest gear. I also saw a
couple of people changing their base layers outside the refuges with
string vest gear on underneath their "base" layer.

Mind you I haven't been in many UK outdoor gear shops lately - perhaps
it wasn't an Italian/German thing after all.

Peter Clinch said:

Can' t speak for Dominic, but I don't see he's claiming that. Sweat
will form at particular hot-spots so with no help you'll have very
uneven distribution of liquid sweat. What a wicking BL will do is
spread it out more evenly, so the same amount of sweat is evaporating
from a greater area.

Which of course isn't going to work too well with a string vest...

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Peter Clinch said:

Quoted message said:

So you're claiming that the surface area for water transport is 3D
with a synthetic BL rather than 2D? I'd really have to see some proof
of this being true in practical circumstances before I believe it.

Can' t speak for Dominic, but I don't see he's claiming that.

I rather thought he was, because he was seemed to say that the
evaporation area would be greater even though he seemed to disavow
what you say next, i.e. :

Quoted message said:

Sweat
will form at particular hot-spots so with no help you'll have very
uneven distribution of liquid sweat. What a wicking BL will do is
spread it out more evenly, so the same amount of sweat is evaporating
from a greater area.

Anyway, theorizing is all very well. But having checked around on real
world use of string underwear, it looks like the modern stuff *is*
superior. It's what Norwegians and other such folk seem to use for
cross country skiing and just walking around, what and artic explorers
use for sledge pulling. This an activity during which your metabolic
rate can be many, many times normal, and during which you can produce
a litre of sweat in a couple of hours. It's stop-start and (obviously)
performed in bloody cold places. See:

http://www.a-nunedited.co.uk/projects/index.php?c=post&p=list&bid=34

http://www.brynje.no

The Brynje stuff is a meraklon net. It's used with merino wool over
that in Artic conditions and that's your base layer. In less awful
places the mesh alone will do. It's hardly imported into the UK -
nowhere seems to sell it online, but it maybe available in some
cycling shops: cyclists in cold weather really have to handle sweat,
cold and stop-start metabolism - especially mountain bikers - and
therefore seem more willing to sacrifice fashion appeal in their
baselayers, just as the Norwegians are.

And lest anyone doubt the hugeness of this sacrifice, I suggest they
look at this:

http://www.wiggys.com/moreinfo.cfm?Product_ID=35

But I warn you, it's not for the sensitive.

UK dealer list for Brynje here: http://www.freestyle-sports.co.uk/r05pages/R05%20Dealers%20Freestyle.html

Personally, I trust the Norwegians to get this right - our "outdoor"
market is dominated by fashion, their cold weather gear has to really
work.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Actually, this would be an appalling bad test of real world
capability, because it fails to take account of the most important
factor - how well does a fabric do in not becoming saturated with
sweat in the first place?

Cotton fails miserably at that, because the fibres themselves absorb the
moisture. Your WBL just passes it on and up for easier evaporation.

Well, yes. Again, that's the point of putting holes in a string vest.
My point is that if holes can make a [censored] material like cotton work,
then they should be aces in a decent material.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

That is the idea with a string vest too - it's what the holes are for.
The difference is that the synthetic BL relies on wicking a trapped
layer of moisture, while a string mesh simply allows the moisture to
exit while it is vaporous.

Indeed, though it won't move liquid as well, and won't be as warm. You
choose, you lose...

Quoted message said:

"Similar in concept" doesn't equal "as effective as".

Nor does it imply any converse degree of performance, however.

No, indeed. My point was, in fact, that no such point can be made by
such hand waving.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

In fact, I think the whole model of cooling and warmth is very
different to what you are assuming. In fact, your model of "the BL
prevents chill from stopping evaporation on the skin" has to be wrong
- if it was correct, there would be no evaporative cooling and wearers
would collapse of dehydration or overheating.

Why?
There is evaporative cooling, but it takes place from the BL surface
rather than the skin.

Excuse me: you seem to have forgotten what the person I was replying
to had written. He claimed that because evaporation didn't make on the
skin, no heat was lost that way. Hence what I wrote - the purpose of
sweat is to cool: if BL's prevented this form of heat loss, they'd be
killers.

Quoted message said:

Conduction is a good cooling method too, which is why you get cold when
your sweat cools down rather than evaporates. Main problem with
conductive cooling is it happens when you want to stay warm, not when
you want to cool off. Which is why cotton has been deprecated as a BL.

Quoted message said:

The way a BL has to work
is allow evaporative cooling to work while the user is sweating, but
to replace the wet air as quickly as possible with dry air. Now,
synthetic materials used in modern BLs may have micropores to allow
this

They don't have micropores.

Well, there you go.

[email hidden] wrote

Quoted message said:

But I warn you, it's not for the sensitive.

Bleurgh ! :-D

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] writes

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

In fact, I think the whole model of cooling and warmth is very
different to what you are assuming. In fact, your model of "the BL
prevents chill from stopping evaporation on the skin" has to be wrong
- if it was correct, there would be no evaporative cooling and wearers
would collapse of dehydration or overheating.

Why?
There is evaporative cooling, but it takes place from the BL surface
rather than the skin.

Excuse me: you seem to have forgotten what the person I was replying
to had written. He claimed that because evaporation didn't make on the
skin, no heat was lost that way. Hence what I wrote - the purpose of
sweat is to cool: if BL's prevented this form of heat loss, they'd be
killers.

I said
"Spreading it out helps it to evaporate faster than if it had remained
on the skin but it also evaporates from the fibres rather than the skin
surface so the cooling caused by evaporation does not happen directly on
the skin."

That does not say there is no cooling effect on the skin. The fact that
the evaporation happens on the far side of the material from the skin
does mean there is less cooling of the skin (a greater proportion of the
energy comes from the air than if the sweat was in contact with the skin
but yes the majority of the cooling comes from the body of the wearer)
and it feels a good deal more comfortable.

I do a fair bit of running and in the summer I use cotton T shirts
precisely because they soak up the sweat and increase the cooling on the
skin. When I finish my run I'm either back at home or at the car so I
can easily change out of the wet cotton. Were I to be unable to change I
would wear something that doesn't absorb water and which dries quickly.

In winter I often run in a base layer top and when the conditions are
cold and dry I sometimes get sweat condensing on the outside of the base
layer while it still feels warm and dry on the inside.

--

Dominic Sexton

Quoted message said:

Anyway, theorizing is all very well. But having checked around on real
world use of string underwear, it looks like the modern stuff *is*
superior. It's what Norwegians and other such folk seem to use for
cross country skiing and just walking around, what and artic explorers
use for sledge pulling.

I'd be careful with the degree of sweep you make in statements like
that. XC skiing is my #1 favourite outdoor hobby I've spent a fair
bit of time in Norway doing it, and net underwear is not something
I recall seeing folk wearing in the huts, or indeed available in
catalogues of the major Norwegian manufacturers like Bergans, Helly
Hansen and Fjallraven. ICBW about this, I'm not into serious
underwear inspections as I said before, but I think just as you
were wary of WBL marketing earlier you should be wary of marketing
of a couple of companies on their own websites.

I suspect the human body is not a sufficiently objective and
unfiromly stable-between-individuals test bed to properly quantify
what's best. Partly people like different things, and partly they
have different physiologies. So I doubt you'll get a good answer
via google.

Quoted message said:

nowhere seems to sell it online, but it maybe available in some
cycling shops: cyclists in cold weather really have to handle sweat,
cold and stop-start metabolism - especially mountain bikers - and
therefore seem more willing to sacrifice fashion appeal in their
baselayers, just as the Norwegians are.

I'm a keen cyclist too, and haven't come across anything of the
sort, and if you think mountain bikers aren't fashion conscious
then you might find reality a bit different! ;-)

Quoted message said:

Personally, I trust the Norwegians to get this right - our "outdoor"
market is dominated by fashion, their cold weather gear has to really
work.

Again I'll remind you that Norway is the home of Helly Hansen Lifa
underwear, and IME it's a *lot* more common on local folk stopping
in touring huts on XC ski trips. The main Norwegian touring
association is DNT. Their pages state:

"1st layer: Underwear

The innermost layer should keep the skin dry and provide
insulation. Choose wool or synthetic garments that fit snugly. A
wool garment can absorb an amount of moisture equivalent to 18% of
its weight yet retain its insulation and not feel wet. Synthetic
underwear isn't as warm as wool underwear, but it efficiently
transports moisture away from the body and is a good choice if you
are continuously active.

You should choose according to your needs. However, wool underwear
smells less than synthetic underwear and accordingly may be a good
choice whenever you wear the same garment for many days. Avoid
cotton underwear, which absorbs and holds moisture, making cotton
garments cold and clammy. Cotton garments insulate poorly when
moist, so you can quickly chill when wearing them."

Nothing about nets there.

As above, I'm not saying they can't be any good, but the balance of
opinion is not with them. If you wish to experiment though, go
ahead: you're not alone.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

214Fells said:

M&S sell the best value for money 'wicking' underware for blokes,
IMHO. £6 or currently 50% off second pair, therefore two pairs for
£9. They perform as well as £20 Helly Hansens.....!

Checked out our local M&S. They only had cotton and merrino wool &
cotton mix (their 'thermal' range). Can you supply more details of the
ones you bought 214Fells, please?

Jim Ford

In message <[email hidden]>, Peter Clinch
<[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

Peter Clinch said:

Can' t speak for Dominic, but I don't see he's claiming that. Sweat
will form at particular hot-spots so with no help you'll have very
uneven distribution of liquid sweat. What a wicking BL will do is
spread it out more evenly, so the same amount of sweat is evaporating
from a greater area.

Which of course isn't going to work too well with a string vest...

String vests are still available from Norwegian company Brynje:

http://www.brynje.no

Brynje make synthetic and cotton string vests and say of the cotton:

"It should be noted that cotton yarns will absorb moisture unlike the
synthethic Meraklon yarn used in the Super Thermo products. The Brynje
cotton net is therefore recommended for lower intensity activities where
perspiration will not be a major factor."

When I started backpacking in the 1970s I wore a cotton string vest
under a lambswool sweater in cool weather, as recommended in the
backpacking books of the day. As far as I remember it worked quite well.

--
Chris Townsend

http://www.christownsendoutdoors.co.uk

Peter Clinch said:

No need to put on cold, wet socks... baste them a little in leftover hot
water from the morning brew and they'll at least be warm, wet socks!

To save on fuel, I don't heat anymore water than I need. In the morning
I boil two cupfuls of water in a titanium 'kettle'. One cup is for
coffee and the other for my breakfast of instant custard.

Jim Ford

Jim Ford said:

214Fells said:

M&S sell the best value for money 'wicking' underware for blokes,
IMHO. £6 or currently 50% off second pair, therefore two pairs for
£9. They perform as well as £20 Helly Hansens.....!

Checked out our local M&S. They only had cotton and merrino wool &
cotton mix (their 'thermal' range). Can you supply more details of the
ones you bought 214Fells, please?

Jim Ford

Hi Jim

On t'net;

Homepage » Menswear » Autograph » Underwear » Autograph Plain Low Rise
Trunks

Product Code: T144968

As stated before, I wear these for running and I think they perform as
well as Helly Hansen LIFA Men's Seamless Boxer's which cost me £20 in
George Fisher's.

Cheers David
--
Last Hill; Win Hill
Last Race; Grunty Fen Half Marathon 1:39:05
Website; http://www.fenrunfe llwalk.co. uk
Test blog; http://s187040142. websitehome. co.uk/

In message <[email hidden]>, Jim Ford
<[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

Peter Clinch said:

No need to put on cold, wet socks... baste them a little in leftover hot
water from the morning brew and they'll at least be warm, wet socks!

To save on fuel, I don't heat anymore water than I need. In the morning
I boil two cupfuls of water in a titanium 'kettle'. One cup is for
coffee and the other for my breakfast of instant custard.

Squeeze them out, hang them up to dry overnight, then bring them in the
sleeping bag to warm up in the morning and you'll have warm, damp socks.
--
Chris Townsend

http://www.auchnarrow.demon.co.uk

Bitstring <[email hidden]>, from the wonderful
person Jim Ford <[email hidden]> said

Quoted message said:

214Fells said:

M&S sell the best value for money 'wicking' underware for blokes,
IMHO. £6 or currently 50% off second pair, therefore two pairs for
£9. They perform as well as £20 Helly Hansens.....!

Checked out our local M&S. They only had cotton and merrino wool &
cotton mix (their 'thermal' range). Can you supply more details of the
ones you bought 214Fells, please?

I personally use the 'Lee Cooper' branded ones from Matalan .. available
in long or short sleeves, black or white. Wick reasonably well,
certainly dry faster than cotton. Only downside is the pants are
girly-style (no access, IYKWIM).

--
GSV Three Minds in a Can
9,423 Km walked. 1,827Km PROWs surveyed. 33.2% complete.

214Fells said:

Jim Ford said:

214Fells said:

M&S sell the best value for money 'wicking' underware for blokes,
IMHO. £6 or currently 50% off second pair, therefore two pairs for
£9. They perform as well as £20 Helly Hansens.....!

Checked out our local M&S. They only had cotton and merrino wool &
cotton mix (their 'thermal' range). Can you supply more details of the
ones you bought 214Fells, please?

Quoted message said:

On t'net;

Homepage » Menswear » Autograph » Underwear » Autograph Plain Low Rise
Trunks

Product Code: T144968

small or XXL only. I reckon they are being phased out :-(

Pinstripe hipsters Product Code: T144923
Contrast Waistband Trunks Product Code: T141601

For colder weather they do 32% wool, 26% polyester, 26% viscose and
16% polyamide thermals.

Whether you can get any of these in your local is another matter
though they should do them to order.
--
Phil Cook, last hill: Angletarn Pikes via Beda Fell.
http://www.p-t-cook.freeserve.co.uk/May07/martin9.htm

The message <[email hidden]>
from Chris Townsend <[email hidden]> contains these
words:

Quoted message said:

When I started backpacking in the 1970s I wore a cotton string vest
under a lambswool sweater in cool weather, as recommended in the
backpacking books of the day. As far as I remember it worked quite well.

I have half a drawer full of string vests, long unused. I can't actually
remember when I stopped wearing them but most probably it was when I
moved from an unheated shared flat to a house of my own with modern
(solid fuel fired) central heating. That would have been circa 1968.

My preferred middle layer for hill walking is still a woollen roll top
sweater. It is getting a bit faded and tatty now but that is only top be
expected after more than 40 years of use.

--
Roger Chapman
Nearest Marilyn still to be visited - Great Orme.
89 miles as the crow flies,
considerably more as the walker drives.

GSV Three Minds in a Can said:

Only downside is the pants are
girly-style (no access, IYKWIM).

Yes indeed. I wear slips for that reason. Used to wear boxers, but when
doing a lot of work on a bike - running up and down stairs for the special
tools - things would 'hang out'. Putting 'em back, using oily hands, wasn't
a 'Good Idea', so slips contained the problem.
As a girlfriend said: 'a chemist is a man who washes his hands before going
to the loo' - same with oil.
--
Peter.
You don't understand Newton's Third Law of Motion?
It's not rocket science, you know.